Official JVC RS40/X3 Owners Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 04:12 AM
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Those shots are pretty revealing. Thanks!

I know it is hard, but would it be possible to take a picture of a single pixel cross-hatch pattern like from the AVS calibration disk? It is hard to do, but can you try to focus in on the pixels themselves so that we can see what the pixel structure looks like? We can't see pixels in your shots. Convergence looks like it is off maybe .5 pixel horizontally and vertical looks very little? Not bad. Also, maybe even more revealing would be to take a clos up picture of the pixels in the alternating on/off single pixels that form a kind of checkerboard? It is also on the AVS disk.

Is the "Natural" setting supposed to be the REC709ish setting? It looks oversaturated to me but maybe not too bad.

Thanks again.

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post #62 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

17- Digital Noise: unless i am blind, I cannot see it on the black/green Lens patterns when zooming or focusing or shift. Please let me know if should look elsewhere to detect digital noise. I was as close as an inch away from my screen and cannot detect it on black background screens.


Noise has nothing to do with blacks. You have to check it with 10 or 20 grayscales and pale colors. Also in 3D (just activate side by side in 2D testpatterns).

Regards,
Ekkehart
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post #63 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post


Regarding high altitude mode, what it does is simply change the fan program to provide some additional cooling to compensate for the demands of higher altitudes. I have not found it necessary in Denver proper with our previous models at all. I do know that once you get any higher altitude, you definitely do need it. Keep in mind, this is me talking, not JVC. The manual has always said to use it over 3,000 feet altitude.

Keep in mind this is an all new light engine, and it does have a higher power lamp, so it may behave a little different. My thought is there is no harm trying it with high altitude mode switched off. The projectors have thermal protection. Worst case scenario is the projector shuts down after maybe 30 minutes, then you let it cool down, switch it back on, and turn the high altitude mode back on.

Chris

Great info! Thanks Chris.

For what its worth, I used high altitude mode on my RS1 for the first ~500 hours and then switched it off for the remainder of my ownership (sold it at 1800 hours) and I never had a problem with it off.

Sam, great work. Sorry I am not much help at the moment.

Where can we DL the AVS test pattern disc that you guys are talking about on here? I only have CD-Rs right at the moment which I assume wont work as far as burning to disc?

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post #64 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You can evaluate convergence without a test disc.

Just press up, down, right, left and OK quickly on the remote to enter the service menu. Then press right twice to get to the appropriate menu and choose adjust pattern.

The first pattern that appears is a convergence checker. It shows the red /blue and green lines separated. You need to check the centre first and then check each corner.

Is this first pattern a single pixel pattern?

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post #65 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

The good news is that I plugged in the Oppo 93 directly using thier HDMI cable and there is ABSOLUTELY NO MORE of this "Raindrop like blue noise." So please breath a big sigh of relief.

FYI the 'Blue Rain" is a known problem with the Denon 4311 which I believe you have.

Congrats on your PJ and thanks for your impressions.
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post #66 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:33 AM
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I would be interested to hear if you notice the convergence change slightly from when you first switch it on to about 10-15 minutes later. I notice my X7 shifts and I don't remember that happening previously with other JVCs. Fortunately it shifts in a way that ends up with a better set-up in the end although my convergence is definitely not as good as within 0.5 over the whole image. Centre and most of the screen is near perfect after warm-up, but I see deviations as big as 0.8/0.9 in one corner. No apparent side effects from this though in terms of perceived sharpness etc.

We often talk about a colour being out, but actually its much more complicated than that. If green is correct, and blue shifts one way half a pixel and red shifts the other way half a pixel, is that a 1 pixel misconvergence or a half?! With my X7 only one colour ever really deviates from the other two.
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post #67 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Is this first pattern a single pixel pattern?

Single pixel. Its the one that a screenshot has been posted where you see the red blue and green separately in a grid so you can see the continuity of the line as it changes colour. This is actually the best way to see misconvergence but it requires more effort to interprete it. The misconvergence will show bigger on this screen than a single pixel grid because you get very slight bloom from a white grid that masks some of the true error.
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post #68 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

This is actually the best way to see misconvergence but it requires more effort to interprete it.

Thanks Jon. What exactly do you mean by the statement I quoted? I did check convergence on my RS1 with a test disc I had at the time that I may or may not have (cant find it at the moment) and will probably just use the internal pattern on the 40 to do so but want to make sure I am evaluating things right.

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post #69 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks Jon. What exactly do you mean by the statement I quoted? I did check convergence on my RS1 with a test disc I had at the time that I may or may not have (cant find it at the moment) and will probably just use the internal pattern on the 40 to do so but want to make sure I am evaluating things right.

Because you have to look more closely with your nose to the screen to see the divergence. With a white grid your eyes just pick straight up on the red blue or green fringing away from the white grid. That takes 1 second. Looking at the convergence test grid just takes a few seconds longer but then you can actually see what each colour is doing.
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post #70 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 07:10 AM
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Thanks for all your efforts, Sam. They're really appreciated. Good luck staying awake today.

Joe Clark

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post #71 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know if this RPA mount is universal? perhaps all I need to do is find the longer arms? Because it looks like I can loosen and unscrew the existing 4 arms and replace with longer ones using the same tightening screws and square nuts.





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post #72 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dogone View Post

Thanks Sam. Appreciate all your effort...

You are welcome, it is obvious my spelling and grammar deteriorated by 3:30AM But y'all know what I meant.
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post #73 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Those shots are pretty revealing. Thanks!

I know it is hard, but would it be possible to take a picture of a single pixel cross-hatch pattern like from the AVS calibration disk? It is hard to do, but can you try to focus in on the pixels themselves so that we can see what the pixel structure looks like? We can't see pixels in your shots. Convergence looks like it is off maybe .5 pixel horizontally and vertical looks very little? Not bad. Also, maybe even more revealing would be to take a clos up picture of the pixels in the alternating on/off single pixels that form a kind of checkerboard? It is also on the AVS disk.

Is the "Natural" setting supposed to be the REC709ish setting? It looks oversaturated to me but maybe not too bad.

Thanks again.


I don't have the AVS disc and I wouldn't know where to start with all the testing you mentions. I am still recovering for a 2 hours sleep night, so maybe some of these things will sink in by this afternoon. It will help if you can document some step by step instructions on how to do the following using the AVS disc.

Turns out the ColorSpace setting (Standard) is what the Rec709 supposed to me, or close to it.
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post #74 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

FYI the 'Blue Rain" is a known problem with the Denon 4311 which I believe you have.

Congrats on your PJ and thanks for your impressions.

Oh no, this is much worse than a bad cable. Has this issue been addressed by Denon? perhaps a FW update? If this had been document on AVS could you please post a link? Thanks
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post #75 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

Noise has nothing to do with blacks. You have to check it with 10 or 20 grayscales and pale colors. Also in 3D (just activate side by side in 2D testpatterns).

Regards,
Ekkehart

I am not sure how to get to this "10 or 20 grayscales and pale colors." I posted several test patterns screenshots, please let me know if it's oneo f them.

You are also saying that I can test for this same "digital noise" by running the 2D pattterns in 3D (side by side)? Does it have to be the grayish screen pattern?
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post #76 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I would be interested to hear if you notice the convergence change slightly from when you first switch it on to about 10-15 minutes later. I notice my X7 shifts and I don't remember that happening previously with other JVCs. Fortunately it shifts in a way that ends up with a better set-up in the end although my convergence is definitely not as good as within 0.5 over the whole image. Centre and most of the screen is near perfect after warm-up, but I see deviations as big as 0.8/0.9 in one corner. No apparent side effects from this though in terms of perceived sharpness etc.

We often talk about a colour being out, but actually its much more complicated than that. If green is correct, and blue shifts one way half a pixel and red shifts the other way half a pixel, is that a 1 pixel misconvergence or a half?! With my X7 only one colour ever really deviates from the other two.


Unfortunately the projector was on for a few hours last night, can I still test for that later tonight? is is a repeatable cycle?

I just need to know Exactly what to look for in what test pattern? I posted all the test pattern screenshots fro the service menu, so just point me to the ones that will test convergence/divergence and uniformity and also let me know how to detect what you want me to see. Sorry as I mentioned before, I don't do these things often.
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post #77 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

I don't have the AVS disc and I wouldn't know where to start with all the testing you mentions. I am still recovering for a 2 hours sleep night, so maybe some of these things will sink in by this afternoon. It will help if you can document some step by step instructions on how to do the following using the AVS disc.

Turns out the ColorSpace setting (Standard) is what the Rec709 supposed to me, or close to it.

You can download the AVS Disk following the instructions here.

This will also have the 10 and 20 ire patterns on it to test for noise.

Affable Nitwit
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post #78 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Sam, great work. Sorry I am not much help at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Thanks for all your efforts, Sam. They're really appreciated. Good luck staying awake today.

You are welcome. Today's gonna be rough!! I may ask for tomorrow off.

I went to bed at 4am and what did I dream of? I dreamt that I was at a Radio Shack and I asked the salesperson if they by any RANDOM chance have the JVC 3D emitter, and he said yes, and told me there was one left on the shelf behind me, I got excited, picked it up and then woke up. Pretty pathetic! Out of all places, I had to dream of Radio Shack! I should have asked for some other overpriced accessories while I was at it. Can I please buy $12 for a headphone splitter?
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post #79 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

Again, my only disclaimer is that i am not the best tester to go by, so hopefully most of this will clear up when more advanced users get their hands on their new RS projectors.

And as i said, the color flashing is only somewhat noticeable (if you look for it) on modes 1 and 2 and on fast moving scenes or scenes with sudden moves.

Also can someone tell me which modes are the BFI modes and which ones are the standard FI modes?

The color fringing in ANY mode is a real deal breaker for some people i'm sure, but this "motion drive" is a frame interpolation, motion smoother type feature, right?

You never mentioned if there was any color fringing when motion drive was off completely. And, when it's off, does the projector do good "on it's own"? I usually never rely on motion tricks or processing to try and make an image look better. I have an epson 6500 and all processing is turned off, and it looks and does great.

Does LCOS tech "need" processing to look better?
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post #80 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

Oh no, this is much worse than a bad cable. Has this issue been addressed by Denon? perhaps a FW update? If this had been document on AVS could you please post a link? Thanks

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289514

you'll have to look in the official thread to see if there is a fix for it yet:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1274153
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post #81 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

The color fringing in ANY mode is a real deal breaker for some people i'm sure, but this "motion drive" is a frame interpolation, motion smoother type feature, right?

You never mentioned if there was any color fringing when motion drive was off completely. And, when it's off, does the projector do good "on it's own"? I usually never rely on motion tricks or processing to try and make an image look better. I have an epson 6500 and all processing is turned off, and it looks and does great.

Does LCOS tech "need" processing to look better?

I am not a major FI or motiondrive fan, but I can still see myself using Modes 1 and 2, as they help the motion and don't give that "wax-like" effect like modes 3 and 4 which are very smooth, if I were to pick one of the last two, I will pick mode 3, as it inhibits less sharpening or enhancement noise.

Mode 0, which is just pure 24p or 60hz depending on source, does not show ANY color flashing or I guess it's called fringing. And I will more than likely use it to watch blu-ray movies, while using the other 4 modes to watch Television or HD sports. But even then, I could easily be happy with the CMD turned off, as the focus and sharpness and general motion handling looks very good to me.
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post #82 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

...2) and 3) please tell me how to go full black and full white, is it by playing with contrast and brightness?

I HIGHLY recommend following Lawguy's advice and downloading the AVS HD 709 calibration disc. It is very easy to do and it is free. You burn it to a DVD disc (even though you play it back in your blu-ray player) so you only need DVD media and a DVD burner to make the disc (not a blu-ray disc non blu-ray media required).

As he pointed out, you can get it here with full instructions: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496 . Having this is not only important for evaluating your unit now but for keeping a watchful eye on it in the future.

To answer your question about which patterns - once you have the disc go into the section on HCFR patterns and choose Full Field patterns. For the all white test, select the 100% pattern. This will fill your screen edge to edge which bright white. For the black pattern (to check for bright corners), use the 0% pattern from the same area of the disc. This will display complete black edge to edge. For these tests do NOT adjust your brightness or contrast.

Quote:


4) and 6) I do not have the AVS disc. Is this the only way to test for pixel adjustment and convergence?

It is not the only way, but it is by far the best way. The patterns you've used so far are "ok", but the one on the AVS HD 709 disc is by far better (more revealing of any issues).

Quote:


5) I switched to ESPN soortscenter HD for the scrolling text, I could not see a different in quality of scrolling font whether scrolling or paused so i guess that is a good thing...

Yes, great to hear. Although its been such a prevalent problem since the RS1 that I'll want to see this one first-hand before getting too excited about it. Thanks.
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post #83 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

Again, my only disclaimer is that i am not the best tester to go by...

On the contrary! Give yourself some credit, you are doing a great job and I think I speak for everyone when I say how much we appreciate all your great feedback!
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post #84 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289514

you'll have to look in the official thread to see if there is a fix for it yet:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1274153

Thanks Mike, I may try to exchange the 4311 for another, and try my luck again. I really don't wanna deal with the hassles and delays of service centers. This is brand spanking new unit, less than a month old.
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post #85 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

I never calibrated my RS20, only basic picture adjustments. So in a sense I am comparing apples (RS40 present) to apples (RS20 from memory) and there is no denying in my mind that the RS40 blows away the RS20.

I'm not so sure then you are comparing apples to apples as much. The reason is that if your RS20 was never calibrated and you had hundreds or more hours on it (I think you said over 1000) then it most certainly has drifted far, and likely had quite a bit of gamma drift as well (resulting in a more washed out looking picture than you may have realized).

So in actuality you may be comparing (from memory) an uncalibrated, drifted RS20 to an out of the box, well calibrated factory unit. Not a fair fight. The insights and comparisons of course are still applicable and useful, but we should keep this in mind as well.
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post #86 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Those shots are pretty revealing. Thanks!

I know it is hard, but would it be possible to take a picture of a single pixel cross-hatch pattern like from the AVS calibration disk? It is hard to do, but can you try to focus in on the pixels themselves so that we can see what the pixel structure looks like?...

I second this request. As I mentioned originally, the important thing to focus on besides the grid lines themselves, is the single pixel that appears in each grid (only on the AVS HD 709 pattern).

If convergence is very good this single pixels found in each grid box will look like a single white pixel. If it is bad, it will look like a small cluster consisting of a red, blue and green pixel. If it is somewhere between good and bad two colors will be essentially on top of each other (to form the pixel) with the other fringing out of the side.

Please take some screen shots up close (about 1.5 feet away) of the grid in various places and some of the single pixels inside the grid boxes, and try to focus on the pixels. I know you say you only have a basic point and shoot camera but that is totally fine and suitable for the job.

Also please take a screen shot of your 0% and 100% patterns (which I mentioned in one the post above). For these shots take them from a distance which is far enough back to capture the whole screen in the photo, but no farther back than that.

Thanks!
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post #87 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

...I went to bed at 4am and what did I dream of? I dreamt that I was at a Radio Shack and I asked the salesperson if they by any RANDOM chance have the JVC 3D emitter, and he said yes, and told me there was one left on the shelf behind me, I got excited, picked it up and then woke up. Pretty pathetic! Out of all places, I had to dream of Radio Shack! I should have asked for some other overpriced accessories while I was at it. Can I please buy $12 for a headphone splitter?

LOL! If I had one of my own I'd send it to you after reading that. Someone get this poor guy an emitter, immediately!
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post #88 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

I am not a major FI or motiondrive fan, but I can still see myself using Modes 1 and 2, as they help the motion and don't give that "wax-like" effect like modes 3 and 4 which are very smooth, if I were to pick one of the last two, I will pick mode 3, as it inhibits less sharpening or enhancement noise.

Mode 0, which is just pure 24p or 60hz depending on source, does not show ANY color flashing or I guess it's called fringing. And I will more than likely use it to watch blu-ray movies, while using the other 4 modes to watch Television or HD sports. But even then, I could easily be happy with the CMD turned off, as the focus and sharpness and general motion handling looks very good to me.

Thanks a million!! That's exactly what I needed (wanted_) to hear!
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post #89 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I'm not so sure then you are comparing apples to apples as much. The reason is that if your RS20 was never calibrated and you had hundreds or more hours on it (I think you said over 1000) then it most certainly has drifted far, and likely had quite a bit of gamma drift as well (resulting in a more washed out looking picture than you may have realized).

So in actuality you may be comparing (from memory) an uncalibrated, drifted RS20 to an out of the box, well calibrated factory unit. Not a fair fight. The insights and comparisons of course are still applicable and useful, but we should keep this in mind as well.

Good point. This is why I am not as picky as yall!
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post #90 of 9995 Old 12-08-2010, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

LOL! If I had one of my own I'd send it to you after reading that. Someone get this poor guy an emitter, immediately!

It would have been nice if during the Radioshack a couple of Victorias Secret models walked into the store while I was making my purchase, but this dream was as nerdy as can be.

And yes if someone wants to send me their emitter, please do, as you can tell I have reached quite a desperate stage after one night of no 3D
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