Official JVC RS40/X3 Owners Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
...I definitely think there is some black crush going on, i've gone through a number of movies with dark scenes and think there should be more shadow detail than I am seeing. I found the area for the custom gamma curve, I am going to try and mess around with it tonight...
This is where the dark/bright gamma slider controls (or whatever they're called) exclusive in the RS50/60 would come in to help. You could brighten the dark end just a tad. That being said, the same thing can be achieved on the RS40, but you have to know how to calibrate using the custom gamma menu and instrumentation to do it right.

As a quick test, try increasing Brightness one notch or two higher. It will raise your black level and likely raise your black floor making it a poor solution. But you should be able to gauge if this helps the black crush. If it does, then it means that with some custom gamma work (lowering your gamma to maybe 2.1 at 5%) it could likely be solved.
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post #1802 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 07:41 PM
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Sam - hold your JVC and Xpand glasses at arms length up to a light in your ceiling. When you look through the lens is the light the same color, or are the lens in one set of glasses tinted differently than the other pair?

The NXG and Samsung glasses have the same exact tint, which is noticeably cooler compared to the Xpand glasses. The Xpand glasses look basically clear (non-tinted) which is likely the reason they have the least amount of impact on the color (unlike the Samsung and NXG glasses).

Anyway, hopefully you'll report the Xpand and JVC lens look identical tint-wise when help up to the light. Thanks.
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post #1803 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 07:56 PM
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I got my RS40 today and I am very impressed.
2D: great pic quality and plenty bright enough.
3D: awesome, NO ghosting, NO flickering, it looks 1000x better than any theater and any flat panels.
I am using natural pic setting and all other at default out of the box settings. I am also using Xpand glasses on a 106" screen innovations screen 1.1 gain.

I was wondering if any one was going to post a settings threat or will other just post their settings here?
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post #1804 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 08:21 PM
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post #1805 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

The exact average of the 4 calibrated X3 was:

870 Lumen in 2D / D65


3D values are always way lower on the JVC: 450 Lumens in 3D on the screen and about 170 Lumens behind the glasses in your eyes.

Regards,
Ekkehart

This is certainly sounding a lot better for the 2D / D65 and I am feeling a lot better about the lumen level in the projector.

However, I am at a complete loss to understand why I seem to be the only one baffled by the lumens in 3D? Am I to understand this correctly, that when you put it in 3D mode the lumens drop in half to 450 lumens? It is in 3D that we need the extra lumens, and I could have swore that folks who have the projector notice a brighter picture in 3D mode (before putting the glasses on of course)? In fact I recall somewhere in this thread where they referred to it as torch mode? Can somebody explain why putting the projector in 3D mode reduces the lumens? Maybe amongst all the other discussions on this thread I missed this and in that case I apologize in advance.
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post #1806 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

How can one not be a fan.......

Some of us who have yet to own a JVC are fanboys in training.....
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post #1807 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Sam - do you have another source to test side by side 3D content besides 3D? I would like to know if this is an issue specific to using DirecTv (whether the JVC or STB's fault) or not. For instance, do you think I would have this issue with ESPN3D on Comcast?

I don't have Aything else SBS to play, since everything i have is FP blurays.

I really hope your ESPN3D via Comcast works this way we know it's a DirecTV issue, crossing my fingers for you!
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post #1808 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Sam, you have 1080p/24 turned on in the Oppo? I have just been using "source direct" which should produce the same results since it just sends the disc info untouched to the 40 which is reporting a 24p signal when appropriate.......have you heard otherwise?

I guess i misunderstood what Kutlow was saying. I thought by turning this off then i wouldn't get 1080p/24. Sounds like youre talking about more of an Auto settings. I didn't touch or change anything on my Oppo93, best to keep it unchanged.
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post #1809 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbroke View Post

I received my OPPO 93 this afternoon so I can finally jump on the 3D bandwagon... I had time to watch 1 movie only so I picked a short one: IMAX Dinosaurs Alive.

The setup:
Batcave
Stewart 130 G3 128" diagonal
16.5 throw with an extreme amount of H-Lens Shift.
Seating at around 13 feet
XPAND 103
3D Mode with no other tweaking.

The results:

WOW! Plenty bright for me. Very little ghosting. I remember 2 or 3 scenes with some but nothing to get too disctracted. At least not for long. I can't believe how good the image looks even with all the 3D...

There is one thing though. Every once in a while in the movie there are some scenes that kinda make me dizzy, for lack of better explaination. It's weird it's like the image is focussed but your brain just says "take it easy", but not in a good way. I had to take the glasses off. I rewinded a few of those scenes and the "effect" was the same. I will probably watch it again tonight because when my 6 year old son gets home and finds out little sister got dibbs on 3D he will not be happy! I will pay attention to see if it happens again in the same scenes and also gage his reaction to see if its just me.

Other than that its been a wonderful experience and we have Despicable Me lined up this Friday for the whole family. Can't wait.

This RS-40, it is really something else...

Congrats dude! Yeah there are very few 3D scenes out there, especially close up ones where the 3D shot can give you the dizzies, and your mind cannot compute the 3D magnitude of the picture, and almost gives you eye fatigue even though there is no fatigue, it just feels like it would.

Glad to see another happy 3D low/mid gain JVC consumer
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post #1810 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I noticed some similar issues with Imax: Space Shuttle. It's still one of my favorites, though. It makes me feel like I'm there. The problem with my Samsung 3D plasma is its size. At 63", it's just too small to completely pull me in as the Imax did when I saw it in 3D at the Smithsonian. That's the feeling I expect the JVC will provide.

Uhhh get ready to be blown away with your RS40 and especially with this Space Station disc since i had actually seen that at the IMAX theater near the actual Johnson Space Center in Seabrook, TX. Like muself, ou will look back at your prior IMAx experience and laugh at how lame it was in comparison. No kidding!

Same applies for Avatar 3D on the big screen via RS40. Infinitely better than the theater.
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post #1811 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Sam - hold your JVC and Xpand glasses at arms length up to a light in your ceiling. When you look through the lens is the light the same color, or are the lens in one set of glasses tinted differently than the other pair?

The NXG and Samsung glasses have the same exact tint, which is noticeably cooler compared to the Xpand glasses. The Xpand glasses look basically clear (non-tinted) which is likely the reason they have the least amount of impact on the color (unlike the Samsung and NXG glasses).

Anyway, hopefully you'll report the Xpand and JVC lens look identical tint-wise when help up to the light. Thanks.

But i no longer have the JVCs, but maybe Todd can bring his glasses with him next time he comes over, he was thinking of coming over this Sunday, so maybe we can test this then.
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post #1812 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

Some of us who have yet to own a JVC are fanboys in training.....

Hopefully graduation day is coming pretty soon for you dude!
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post #1813 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

This is certainly sounding a lot better for the 2D / D65 and I am feeling a lot better about the lumen level in the projector.

However, I am at a complete loss to understand why I seem to be the only one baffled by the lumens in 3D? Am I to understand this correctly, that when you put it in 3D mode the lumens drop in half to 450 lumens? It is in 3D that we need the extra lumens, and I could have swore that folks who have the projector notice a brighter picture in 3D mode (before putting the glasses on of course)? In fact I recall somewhere in this thread where they referred to it as torch mode? Can somebody explain why putting the projector in 3D mode reduces the lumens? Maybe amongst all the other discussions on this thread I missed this and in that case I apologize in advance.

Yeah its definitely torcha-Palooza when 3D preset is turned on, feels like the brightness or lumens was increased by at least 30%. it is actually uncomfortable and can be a bit fatiguing for me to look at it without the glasses for more than a minute. It is definitely much brighter because of the high lamp mode. So my question to Ekki is if he is actually pressing the 3D preset to measure the lumens then.
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post #1814 of 10005 Old 12-22-2010, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

But i no longer have the JVCs, but maybe Todd can bring his glasses with him next time he comes over, he was thinking of coming over this Sunday, so maybe we can test this then.

I will bring them over on Sun and we can check this out.

I am ordering a pair of 103s from AVS tom as well. Why I only got one pair of glasses is beyond me!?

One thing I noticed tonight on my smaller 1.78 image (7' wide) and further ~12' view distance compared to Sams 8.5' wide 1.78 image and closer ~10.5' view distance is there is a immersion difference for sure...........definitely a bit more immersive at Sams place with the closer view distance and bigger screen. Still is amazing with my size screen/view distance, but what I am getting at is go bigger and sit closer for 3d for a better overall experience if you can

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #1815 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

I have the RS10 and am curious how the ANSI contrast looks on the RS40 compared to HD350?

I've sold the HD350 before getting the RS40, so I can't do a direct comparison, have to do all comparisons from my HD350 memories. To be honest, I don't feel confident to say anything about how ANSI contrast compares between HD350 and RS40, because of the lack of direct comparison and because the HD350 had a really old lamp.
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post #1816 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright alright, no one has come forward and PMed me their own configuration and settings. So i spent the past 3 hours skimming through the thread and i posted the initial 2D and 3D settings in addition to 3D pertinent info including some playback issues via HTPCs and DirecTV. As well as an index of screenshots in the first post.


Guys, i cannot stress this enough, please post your own settings and PM me links of those posts. I am getting an average of 15 PMs per day related to settings questions and impressions on the RS40, and i barelt have time to scratch my head sometimes. So i could really use the help of others in posting their own special settings, but please PM the links of those posts because sometimes a day or two would go by before i check this thread, and boy this thread moves very fast.

Thanks for the help in advance
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post #1817 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I will bring them over on Sun and we can check this out.

I am ordering a pair of 103s from AVS tom as well. Why I only got one pair of glasses is beyond me!?

One thing I noticed tonight on my smaller 1.78 image (7' wide) and further ~12' view distance compared to Sams 8.5' wide 1.78 image and closer ~10.5' view distance is there is a immersion difference for sure...........definitely a bit more immersive at Sams place with the closer view distance and bigger screen. Still is amazing with my size screen/view distance, but what I am getting at is go bigger and sit closer for 3d for a better overall experience if you can

That's a great point about the viewing distance effecting the immersion factor more so with 3D than 2D. My viewing distance is 2x width (about 15 feet from 7.5 wide screen). Might have to throw a few chairs in the middle of the room during 3D viewing.
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post #1818 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

That's a great point about the viewing distance effecting the immersion factor more so with 3D than 2D. My viewing distance is 2x width (about 15 feet from 7.5 wide screen). Might have to throw a few chairs in the middle of the room during 3D viewing.


That would be a great plan.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #1819 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 06:31 AM
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Sharpness and detail not working on user presets 1 and 2? Some RS50 owners are reporting this and was wondering if anyone has noticed this on the 40...............might be a new bug in need of a FW update if so. I will try to remember to check this out tonight or tom (next time I fire up the 40).

Still the most annoying thing for me with 3d is the rear room reflections that you see in the lenses on the 3d glasses since they are so wide. Not sure how to get around this since I assume they designed the glasses this way so people could wear them over prescription glasses. I have been slowly blacking out little things like trim behind me that I have noticed in the lenses which is helping.........nothing you can do about the projector light though which anyone will see (it is not super bright fortunately) who is sitting on the ends of my couch. Would be nice if they offered different style glasses for those who do not need to wear them over prescription lenses to cut down on these reflections. You learn to tune them out to a certain degree, but I would like to see modifications/improvements in this area since I cant be the only one who notices this. Not a huge deal, but something that could be improved upon for sure IMO

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #1820 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post


As a quick test, try increasing Brightness one notch or two higher. It will raise your black level and likely raise your black floor making it a poor solution. But you should be able to gauge if this helps the black crush. If it does, then it means that with some custom gamma work (lowering your gamma to maybe 2.1 at 5%) it could likely be solved.

The black crush seems more noticeable in 3D mode. It doesn't look like I can create a custom gamma curve while in 3D mode, the option is grayed out. I wonder if I make the custom curve in 2D mode, if the preset will take effect in 3D mode, or if it's stuck with Gamma (A) and Gamma (B)

I set the baseline for the gamma @ 2.1 then again @ 2.0, it does seem to pickup the highlights in the background. I was watching a Blu-ray of a Cure concert from 2002, It's quite dark and lowering the gamma seemed to bring the PQ where I was expecting.

Thanks for your help!
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post #1821 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 08:13 AM
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Toe, how about blacking out the extreme edges of the lenses? A little black paint or tape? Kind of kludgy, but might help for now. (Then post a pic of your group sitting there with your taped up glasses, a real "revenge of the nerds" shot
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post #1822 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

Some of us who have yet to own a JVC are fanboys in training.....

Seeing that we have not had a chance to test one, we are in training too. Would have been done already but our calibrator Chad B is out on tour
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post #1823 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 09:47 AM
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Does directv recognize that the JVC is 3D? I ask because I don't want to unhook my current set up if it doesn't.
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post #1824 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

Alright alright, no one has come forward and PMed me their own configuration and settings. So i spent the past 3 hours skimming through the thread and i posted the initial 2D and 3D settings in addition to 3D pertinent info including some playback issues via HTPCs and DirecTV. As well as an index of screenshots in the first post.


Guys, i cannot stress this enough, please post your own settings and PM me links of those posts. I am getting an average of 15 PMs per day related to settings questions and impressions on the RS40, and i barelt have time to scratch my head sometimes. So i could really use the help of others in posting their own special settings, but please PM the links of those posts because sometimes a day or two would go by before i check this thread, and boy this thread moves very fast.

Thanks for the help in advance

As soon as I get mine, I'll do a quick calibration with Calman 4.0 and post some initial settings. I'll do a more thorough calibration at 100 hours and update. I'll be using a VideoEQ Pro for CMS.

David Vaughn

Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer

Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)

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post #1825 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The black crush seems more noticeable in 3D mode. It doesn't look like I can create a custom gamma curve while in 3D mode, the option is grayed out. I wonder if I make the custom curve in 2D mode, if the preset will take effect in 3D mode, or if it's stuck with Gamma (A) and Gamma (B)

I set the baseline for the gamma @ 2.1 then again @ 2.0, it does seem to pickup the highlights in the background. I was watching a Blu-ray of a Cure concert from 2002, It's quite dark and lowering the gamma seemed to bring the PQ where I was expecting.

Thanks for your help!

At least this applies to the RS50. 3D is just a preset, not a mandatory step for watching 3D. You can use a user preset, put it into high bulb mode, and then use a custom gamma etc.
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post #1826 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

One thing I noticed tonight on my smaller 1.78 image (7' wide) and further ~12' view distance compared to Sams 8.5' wide 1.78 image and closer ~10.5' view distance is there is a immersion difference for sure...........definitely a bit more immersive at Sams place with the closer view distance and bigger screen. Still is amazing with my size screen/view distance, but what I am getting at is go bigger and sit closer for 3d for a better overall experience if you can

Do you think sitting closer is a complete substitute for having a bigger screen? In other words, Sam's viewing distance is about 1.24 times the image width. If you set up a viewing distance of the same ratio, 8.68 feet, would the experience be just as immersive, assuming the image has the same aspect ratio? (I would imagine that a 4x3 image of the same width would be even more immersive at that distance.)

With my current DLP projector, I like to get as close as possible, so long as I don't see a screen door effect and don't have to turn my head to see the whole movie. I'd love to have a larger screen, but it just won't work in my setting.
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post #1827 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

This is certainly sounding a lot better for the 2D / D65 and I am feeling a lot better about the lumen level in the projector.

However, I am at a complete loss to understand why I seem to be the only one baffled by the lumens in 3D? Am I to understand this correctly, that when you put it in 3D mode the lumens drop in half to 450 lumens? It is in 3D that we need the extra lumens, and I could have swore that folks who have the projector notice a brighter picture in 3D mode (before putting the glasses on of course)? In fact I recall somewhere in this thread where they referred to it as torch mode? Can somebody explain why putting the projector in 3D mode reduces the lumens? Maybe amongst all the other discussions on this thread I missed this and in that case I apologize in advance.


This is simple:
When 3D is activated, the projector inserts longer dark times in the PWM of the D-ILA Pixels. This results in a brightness loss of 50% -> about 450 to 500 lumens

However, as a result, the glasses do not lose so much light anymore, just about 65%, because the open times of the shutters can be longer. So you end up with about 150-200 lumens.

Drawbacks: Much more picture noise because of the reduced PWM, less bit depth and 50% loss of native contrast.

The SXRDs work differently: Here they keep full brightness and contrast, but the glasses lose about 85% light. So you end up with about same brightness, but you do not have so much contrast loss as with D-ILA. And you do not have any noise at all.


I hope, this explains your questions...

Regards,
Ekkehart
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post #1828 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I am going back tonight for a closer look, but my initial impression was the contrast/blacks are nearly identical, the colors may be a little off on the ATI compared to the Samsung BD 7900.

I definitely think there is some black crush going on, i've gone through a number of movies with dark scenes and think there should be more shadow detail than I am seeing. I found the area for the custom gamma curve, I am going to try and mess around with it tonight.

I'm a little surprised no one is tinkering yet. You can be sure that Cine4homes 4 calibrated X3's aren't sitting at '0' on the default settings.



True, in 2D we always increase shadow detail with the gamma manager.

However, the 3D gamma of the X3 / RS40 can not be influenced at all. All you have is the choice between "A" and "B". "A" is a near 2.2 gamma with black crush, "B" is an ultra flat gamma with more shadow detail, but which costs much picture depth in bright scenes. No further optimization possible!

You pick your poison.

Regards,
Ekkehart
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post #1829 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gesundheit View Post

Toe, how about blacking out the extreme edges of the lenses? A little black paint or tape? Kind of kludgy, but might help for now. (Then post a pic of your group sitting there with your taped up glasses, a real "revenge of the nerds" shot

I was thinking the same kind of thing. A little black velvet or maybe cut out pieces of neutral density material from sheets of it that are fairly cheap at places like Adorama or bhphotovideo.com, but not sure if that stuff is too reflective on the back side. If not the ND material could be done without looking too crazy.

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post #1830 of 10005 Old 12-23-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

At least this applies to the RS50. 3D is just a preset, not a mandatory step for watching 3D. You can use a user preset, put it into high bulb mode, and then use a custom gamma etc.

good point, I saw this late last night and should have thought to try this. I think trying to calibrate while watching through the glasses will be a challenge to say the least.
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