2D only: VW85 vs RS40 (or "Best 2D movie & gaming projector for $3k-$5k") - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to some feedback from joerod (who seems to have similar taste in display characteristics and limitless patience for my barrage of questions) I've pretty much decided on the VW85, but given that the Sony is essentially "previous gen" at this point, I have to confess that I'm very curious about the RS40.

The JVC might be a "no" due to response time - posts here indicate the older JVC's as having >50ms response times and I'd like to maintain the ~15ms response times of the VW100 I have now.

FWIW, my viewing is in a 100% light controlled (black walls & ceiling, dark floor, no windows) room on a 108" StudioTek 130 from 1.1 widths away. roughly 50/50 gaming/movies. I gather that either should feel like a significant improvement over the VW100 with the possible exception of color accuracy (sounds like the 85 is nearly on par there though).

I will be auditioning an RS40 to check lag times since they can't seem to be found online yet for the 2011 JVC's and post my findings in this forum but I've not found a dealer who can arrange for an audition of the VW85 in my home (still workin' on it) In the mean time, does anyone care to voice their opinion regarding their comparative 2D performance? The closest comparison I've seen thus far is http://httparchive.avsforum.com/avs-....php?t=1297050

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post #2 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 07:40 PM
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I've not seen the RS40 in action, but I just upgraded my Pearl to a new VW85 and wow, what a difference. I don't care that it's previous gen...it has all the features I need, great blacks (on a HP screen no less), anamorphic mode for when I get a lens (currently zooming for scope), etc, etc. it's definitely a drastic upgrade for me. I'm seeing detail I never saw with the Pearl...and I loved that projector.

Personally, go with the 85.
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post #3 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 08:29 PM
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When I did the lag test, the RS40 had approx 80ms avg lag time, versus the RS1 which had about 50ms. I don't know if there were settings that could have improved the RS40, but I did not have CMD on, and I was using "natural" mode for the test. Not sure if another would've been better... When I dual output to my panasonic 37S1 LCD and my RS40 at the same time, I can see a slight lag on the RS40...

If you take 3D out of the equation, and if response time is important, then I'd probably stick the the VW85 if that truly has a better response time... I personally have never seen the VW85, so I couldn't tell you how the two compare in other areas.

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post #4 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad View Post

When I did the lag test, the RS40 had approx 80ms avg lag time

ooof. that's fairly staggering. My Ruby had 0 lag when measured using the "laptop+projector (cloned display) while running a giant timer" test, which is what I assume you were doing? Of course, this doesn't mean it has 0ms lag - merely that it's just as fast as the LCD in the laptop I was using. I'd guess 15ms at worst, 5ms at best.

Anyway - thank you so much for this reply! I'd been scouring the forums for updated input lag numbers on the 2011 JVCs to no avail. You've saved me the round-trip shipping costs of an in-home audition of an RS40.

Incidentally, did you post that info on the RS40 owner's thread or the RSxx HTPC thread? Both of those have many people asking about input lag and I never found any responses there. Bad news aside, I'm sure that your information is much needed in those threads.

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post #5 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Coupe View Post

Thanks to some feedback from joerod (who seems to have similar taste in display characteristics and limitless patience for my barrage of questions) I've pretty much decided on the VW85

So you finally decided not to upgrade your VW100. Considering that the VW85 has the same resolution, 2D only and similar lumen with a non-Xenon lamp, I hope you won't be disappointed.
For myself, I keep waiting for the VW150 (should not be too long, after VW90 Sony won't have much choice in going above 100... ).
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post #6 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 10:04 PM
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Hopefully this isn't considered hijacking, but I think there will be very similar performance between the two so...

While I can't speak to the 40, my RS-50's lag time is at least 200 ms in THX mode, and 'feels' around 80-100 ms in other modes. This is with no CMD, extra processing, etc.

You've read right, there's almost a quarter second of input lag in THX mode. It's so bad in fact that lip sync is noticeably off on DVD's and Blurays from my Sony BD player, as well as movies and TV shows from my HTPC.

As far as why? Good question. I just know that I've never seen lag this bad before.

Before anyone thinks I'm bashing my dear 50 let me say that said I've already grown somewhat accustomed to it, but make no mistake, in all modes I dare say you may notice a slight delay, regardless of player and AVR settings, and even with using direct from Player-->Projector connections.

In THX mode however, my somewhat extensive testing has shown audio will simply not sync 100% with the screen action unless using HDMI 1.3 lip sync correction (if available).

For the sake of completeness, my Dell 2410 monitor I often mirror with the projector seems to be rated around 40ms, a speed I've always felt is the upper-limit of what I can start to detect:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2410.htm

The 50 however, is simply noticeably slower than this.

Current owners will also confirm that syncing an HDMI source is also painfully slow. Often times a TV show's audio will start with no picture for a good 2 or 3 seconds as we switch display modes from the DVD menu screen to the actual episode.

All of that said, I still love my PJ--last night I watched a few minutes of some Pixar films in the Anime setting and it was literally awe-inspiring. I just hope they can address these other issues via firmware. If they don't this will be my first and last JVC projector. Quality isn't just a pretty image, for these prices it needs to be the whole package!

All that said, according to this site:

Quote:


In 1998, ITU-R published BT.1359, recommending the relative timing of sound and vision for broadcasting. Studies by the ITU and the others have suggested that thresholds of timing for viewer detection are about +45ms to -125ms, and the thresholds of acceptability are about +90ms to -185ms. In addition, the ATSC Implementation Subcommittee IS-191 has found that under all operational situations, the sound program should never lead the video program by more than 15ms and should never lag the video program by more than 45ms ±15ms.

Which to be honest, I find a bit disconcerting. Hopefully JVC has not decided that this and similar findings should be the norm.
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post #7 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeji View Post

So you finally decided not to upgrade your VW100. Considering that the VW85 has the same resolution, 2D only and similar lumen with a non-Xenon lamp, I hope you won't be disappointed.
For myself, I keep waiting for the VW150 (should not be too long, after VW90 Sony won't have much choice in going above 100... ).

You make a fair point, geeji. I expect that a Xenon-based variant of the 90ES is in the pipeline somewhere, but my budget isn't what it was when I bought the VW100 (going from dual-income-no-kids to dual-kids-one-income has a way of doing that!) Honestly, the flicker was one of only three major complaints I had about the VW100 (the others being convergence and some rather unfortunate artifacts in the red channel on dark scenes washed with red [happens in more films than you might imagine]). Furthermore, I've chatted with two different former VW100 owners who later went to the VW85 and both felt it was a significant improvement. I dont think I'll be disappointed.

Thanks again, geeji, for your help regarding the repair kit for the VW100. My plan is to work with a dealer who will let me audition the the VW85 at home. If it isn't a more satisfying picture overall (flicker aside) than my VW100, then I plan to return the VW85 and repair the VW100.

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post #8 of 19 Old 02-13-2011, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grdinic View Post

Hopefully this isn't considered hijacking

Not at all - it was relevant to my concerns re: the JVC. That said, I hope you've posted these findings in the main JVC threads. For whatever reason, I had zero luck digging up specifics regarding lag times on the 2011 JVCs

Good luck - I hope there's a FW fix in your near future!

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post #9 of 19 Old 02-14-2011, 12:40 AM
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Haven't posted these findings elsewhere, though mainly because without equipment to back my findings I'm leaving myself exposed to criticism I simply can't defend without hard numbers.

That said, the truly relevant point in this discussion is that input lag, just like the issue of not supporting some non-standard 3D formats and the CMS doing this mind-numbingly ridiculous flash every time you change a setting--if you had to pick it's obvious that JVC's weak spot is software.

At some point in the not-to-distant future LED based light sources (or similar) will even out the playing field for truly high-contrast projection units, and TV's will only get bigger and cheaper to the point where we're heading to Best Buy to pick up that new 100" Samsung for under 3k....In short software will become the leading factor in many peoples buying choices, and in an increasingly competitive market this would not bode well for JVC.

Again, love my projector--just not some aspects of the software. Simple to fix though Japan, simple to fix.... : )
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post #10 of 19 Old 02-14-2011, 04:19 AM
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I just purchased and put up a VW85 last week and it is simply amazing. I could not be happier.
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-14-2011, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Coupe View Post

ooof. that's fairly staggering. My Ruby had 0 lag when measured using the "laptop+projector (cloned display) while running a giant timer" test, which is what I assume you were doing? Of course, this doesn't mean it has 0ms lag - merely that it's just as fast as the LCD in the laptop I was using. I'd guess 15ms at worst, 5ms at best.

I raised this question before too... no idea what the lag on my laptop monitor is...

Quote:
Anyway - thank you so much for this reply! I'd been scouring the forums for updated input lag numbers on the 2011 JVCs to no avail. You've saved me the round-trip shipping costs of an in-home audition of an RS40.

Incidentally, did you post that info on the RS40 owner's thread or the RSxx HTPC thread? Both of those have many people asking about input lag and I never found any responses there. Bad news aside, I'm sure that your information is much needed in those threads.

Here is the link to the post I made... it wasn't a big thread which is why it's probably easy to overlook:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post19838264

Looks like someone else put up numbers in a post below mine... .06 - .07... so not far off from my findings....

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post #12 of 19 Old 02-19-2011, 10:33 PM
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Well, here is an other interesting option for you : a B-stock refurbished VW200 for about 1/5th the original price !.
It keeps the VW100 Xenon lamp, and adds a better (automatic) pixel alignment as well as the 24p capability; and the correction of the VW100 hard start problem.
On the other hand, that dirt cheap offer may be the advance notification for a coming VW150 or VW300 (long overdue... ).

Oh, and for $500 less, you get a B-stock VW85, but wo/ Xenon lamp.
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post #13 of 19 Old 02-20-2011, 05:14 AM
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"Well, here is an other interesting option for you : a B-stock refurbished VW200 for about 1/5th the original price !.
It keeps the VW100 Xenon lamp, and adds a better (automatic) pixel alignment as well as the 24p capability; and the correction of the VW100 hard start problem.
On the other hand, that dirt cheap offer may be the advance notification for a coming VW150 or VW300 (long overdue... )."


So which would you go with? the 200 or the 85?
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post #14 of 19 Old 02-20-2011, 07:18 AM
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200 if you go with a Sony. I would research a bit on panel degradation issues though as there is some concern from respected members that Sony's panels decline in on/off contrast ratio over time (cine4home & UMR).

Have you thought about using a two projector configuration? I use a cheaper low lag DLP for gaming and a nicer projector for movie watching. I do this not so much for the lag issues but in order to save my bulb/calibration for the good stuff.

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post #15 of 19 Old 02-20-2011, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmm.. a VW200 for that money IS awfully tempting.

However, given the problems I had with my VW100 and their lack of resolution by Sony at the Laredo service center, combined with the no returns policy on AVS B-stock items, I still feel like it would be quite a gamble. Extremely tempting, though.

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post #16 of 19 Old 02-20-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

200 if you go with a Sony. I would research a bit on panel degradation issues though as there is some concern from respected members that Sony's panels decline in on/off contrast ratio over time (cine4home & UMR)...

Cine4Home has adressed this concern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

We did observe such degradation from time to time with VPL-VW100 and VPL-VW50.

But not ever since.

Regards,
Ekkehart

Note VW100 is a 2005 model, VW50 is a 2006 model!!

Unike Cine4Home, UMR has never provided any objective measurements on front projectors.
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post #17 of 19 Old 02-20-2011, 10:20 AM
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I loved the 200 I had. I kept it for 2 years before changing to something else. I went through one lamp change. I loved the color and sheen of the image never any panel degrade on mine. I am probably going to grab another one if I can confirm we can still get a special on the lamp. There really has not been any image break through the last few years that leave anyone projector on top of all others. We are taking baby steps.
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post #18 of 19 Old 02-20-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Cine4Home has adressed this concern
Note VW100 is a 2005 model, VW50 is a 2006 model!!

Unike Cine4Home, UMR has never provided any objective measurements on front projectors.

Interesting, as I haven't heard that update. That is good to know. I almost bought a Sony last year, but the transaction became complicated. I guess I would not have had anything to worry about as far as the panel.

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post #19 of 19 Old 05-20-2011, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grdinic View Post

While I can't speak to the 40, my RS-50's lag time is at least 200 ms in THX mode, and 'feels' around 80-100 ms in other modes. This is with no CMD, extra processing, etc.

You've read right, there's almost a quarter second of input lag in THX mode. It's so bad in fact that lip sync is noticeably off on DVD's and Blurays from my Sony BD player, as well as movies and TV shows from my HTPC.

As far as why? Good question. I just know that I've never seen lag this bad before.

Before anyone thinks I'm bashing my dear 50 let me say that said I've already grown somewhat accustomed to it, but make no mistake, in all modes I dare say you may notice a slight delay, regardless of player and AVR settings, and even with using direct from Player-->Projector connections.

In THX mode however, my somewhat extensive testing has shown audio will simply not sync 100% with the screen action unless using HDMI 1.3 lip sync correction (if available).

For the sake of completeness, my Dell 2410 monitor I often mirror with the projector seems to be rated around 40ms, a speed I've always felt is the upper-limit of what I can start to detect:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2410.htm

The 50 however, is simply noticeably slower than this.

Current owners will also confirm that syncing an HDMI source is also painfully slow. Often times a TV show's audio will start with no picture for a good 2 or 3 seconds as we switch display modes from the DVD menu screen to the actual episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grdinic View Post

Haven't posted these findings elsewhere, though mainly because without equipment to back my findings I'm leaving myself exposed to criticism I simply can't defend without hard numbers.

Hi,

Thanks for your observations.

I was wondering if your receiver or prepro has HDMI 1.3 lip sync correction would it be possible to use it to confirm your observations?

Here's an excerpt from my Onkyo PR-SC886 manual that discusses this feature.

Quote:


Lip Sync
The Lip Sync function can automatically synchronize
HDMI audio and video that's gotten out of sync due to
the complex digital video processing being performed by
your HDMI-compatible TV. With HDMI Lip Sync, the
audio delay required to synchronize the audio and video
is calculated and applied automatically by the AV controller.
Disable: HDMI lip sync disabled (default).
Enable: HDMI lip sync enabled. Notes:
This function works only if your HDMI-compatible
TV supports HDMI Lip Sync.
You can check the amount of delay being applied by
the HDMI Lip Sync function on the A/V Sync
screen
(see page 103).

So assuming the projector supports this feature it seems that if your receiver/prepro has a similar functionality it should be possible to automatically measure, set and display the delay. This would permit you to confirm your observations if you have concerns about backing up your findings.

Larry
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