JVC RS40 Lumens - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 292 Old 02-13-2011, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently upgraded from an RS15 to an RS40, and while the RS40 does have a better picture overall in 2D mode, I notice a disturbing loss of Lumens vs the RS15, especially in Normal lamp mode.

Is it possible it's just the lamp I got, or has anyone else noticed that despite the increased lumen ratings, this years JVC's don't put out as much light as last years?


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post #2 of 292 Old 02-15-2011, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun View Post

I recently upgraded from an RS15 to an RS40, and while the RS40 does have a better picture overall in 2D mode, I notice a disturbing loss of Lumens vs the RS15, especially in Normal lamp mode.

Is it possible it's just the lamp I got, or has anyone else noticed that despite the increased lumen ratings, this years JVC's don't put out as much light as last years?

They are supposed to put out more. Look over in the RS40 owners thread, some people over there got defective units putting out half the advertised output...you should return it and see if it improves.
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post #3 of 292 Old 02-15-2011, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun View Post

I recently upgraded from an RS15 to an RS40, and while the RS40 does have a better picture overall in 2D mode, I notice a disturbing loss of Lumens vs the RS15, especially in Normal lamp mode.

Is it possible it's just the lamp I got, or has anyone else noticed that despite the increased lumen ratings, this years JVC's don't put out as much light as last years?

How many hours on your RS15? Are you saying that your used RS15 is noticeably brighter compared to your new RS40? If yes than there is a big problem.
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post #4 of 292 Old 02-15-2011, 10:07 PM
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post #5 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 12:34 AM
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My RS60 arrived yesterday. I measured my RS35, with 245hrs, as 284lux from my measurement point. Then replaced the RS35 with the RS60 (and using the same lamp/iris/profile settings as the RS35) read 183lux off a brand new bulb.

As above, the only way to get anywhere near the full brightness is to turn the profile OFF which seems to remove all filters and max out the drivers (blue and green gains were 30-40% higher than red, which is unusable). When you engage ANY of the profiles the lumens plummet.

Either JVC have been *very* disingenuous with their 1300l claim or I have a duff unit?

Further to this, I dug out the measurements for my RS35 when new.

RS35 340lux vs X9 308lux in its OFF profile mode .

Anyway, the dealer is aware and we're waiting for feedback.

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post #6 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 08:18 AM
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These reports are really starting to worry me. And many others I'm sure. I upgraded for better performance from an RS1 to RS2 but unhappy that there had to be a trade off to less lumens. But that drop had been reported in the specs from JVC. Then from the RS2 to RS25 again for more performance AND greater lumens figure reported again accurately in the specs.

Now waiting on RS50 to arrive and once again performance upgrade from everything I have read plus 3D, and a "slam dunk" with even more head room lumens wise and the dual iris to adjust with not much ansi loss reportedly. New higher voltage lamp....1,300 lumens uncalibrated....how could this projector not have more than the 25 when at D65? Indeed what the heck is going on here for the 2D lumens performance???????
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post #7 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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I would be surprised that the new models have less light than the RS15 or another older model. These new projectors had to get a boost in light output in order for 3D to work properly. JVC could have stayed with their old lumens formula if they only showed 2D with the light requirement of 3D, they really had to increase the lumens both with a stronger bulb and more efficient light engine
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post #8 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 08:56 AM
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I don't think it's the question if the new units can put out more light (based on credible tests they can). The question is why there are so many lemons.
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post #9 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 08:57 AM
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Daniel ^^^

Well yes....clearly that's what logic says and we all are thinking, and given JVC's past accuracy and resulting good will with their specs. But SO many reports. Unless they are getting a lot of variable performance out of the new lamps?
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post #10 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Hutnicki View Post
I would be surprised that the new models have less light than the RS15 or another older model. These new projectors had to get a boost in light output in order for 3D to work properly. JVC could have stayed with their old lumens formula if they only showed 2D with the light requirement of 3D, they really had to increase the lumens both with a stronger bulb and more efficient light engine
Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your remarks.

Does AVS have an available service to check whether a projector is within specs for lumens, convergence, etc., before it ships to a customer?

If so, can you describe it in more detail? Are you at liberty to state how much such a service would cost?

Thanks.

Larry



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post #11 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post
Well yes....clearly that's what logic says and we all are thinking, and given JVC's past accuracy and resulting good will with their specs. But SO many reports. Unless they are getting a lot of variable performance out of the new lamps?
That is a distinct possibility, assuming the reports we are reading are indicative of higher-than-normal problems. Epson was a PJ provider for some equipment in one of my products many years ago, and they had just come out with a "new design" bulb that was supposed to last twice as long. Problem is (IIRC - it's been a while), it tended to fail within the first few hundred hours a lot more readily: once past there, it would indeed have a longer lifetime. Eventually the later batches were more consistent while still being longer-lived.

So maybe JVC's new bulb design is experiencing higher-than-normal infanticide rates, which will result in some manufacturing tweaks to improve the overall quality.

Perhaps Chris from JVC could offer insight, although I suspect even if he knew something he might not have the freedom to discuss.

Just a shot-in-the-dark, I might be completely off-base.

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post #12 of 292 Old 02-16-2011, 10:30 AM
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I think there are 2 issues.

1) Some bulbs are below spec

2) There is such a significant green/blue push with the new engine specifically on the X7/X9 and not seemingly the X3 that it requires such a large gain drop to pull it back into spec which means realistic lumens are lower than expected (40% drop approx)

Evidence of 2 is clearly seen on these forums, by switching colour profile to OFF showing the native gamut of the projector. This clearly shows a strong green/blue push.

We are seeing the THX mode delivering somewhere around 650-700 lumens out of the box at short throw for an X7/X9. Yet a calibrated X3 can achieve 800-900 lumens.

I see 1150 lumens at short throw on my 200 hour bulb in Off, yet only see about 650 lumens in THX.

The X7/X9 have the dual aperture system. Wide open this shouldn't affect these results, but perhaps there is more to this and therefore the differential against an X3.

Nonetheless, I find it very odd that JVC came up with a more efficient light engine and a higher bulb output, that seems to be completely lost by the time you calibrate these projectors!
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post #13 of 292 Old 03-01-2011, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
My RS60 arrived yesterday. I measured my RS35, with 245hrs, as 284lux from my measurement point. Then replaced the RS35 with the RS60 (and using the same lamp/iris/profile settings as the RS35) read 183lux off a brand new bulb.

As above, the only way to get anywhere near the full brightness is to turn the profile OFF which seems to remove all filters and max out the drivers (blue and green gains were 30-40% higher than red, which is unusable). When you engage ANY of the profiles the lumens plummet.

Either JVC have been *very* disingenuous with their 1300l claim or I have a duff unit?

Further to this, I dug out the measurements for my RS35 when new.

RS35 340lux vs X9 308lux in its OFF profile mode .

Anyway, the dealer is aware and we're waiting for feedback.
Mark, any progress on the issue with your RS60?


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post #14 of 292 Old 03-01-2011, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Mark, any progress on the issue with your RS60?
Not yet. JVC haven't responded. Chasing my dealer. Maybe the firmware coming out this week will help?

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post #15 of 292 Old 03-02-2011, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Not yet. JVC haven't responded. Chasing my dealer. Maybe the firmware coming out this week will help?
The firmware will come out this week?
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post #16 of 292 Old 03-02-2011, 06:05 AM
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Apparently so...

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post #17 of 292 Old 03-02-2011, 07:29 AM
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Apparently so...

If it's true that will be great !
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post #18 of 292 Old 03-02-2011, 07:50 AM
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Not yet. JVC haven't responded. Chasing my dealer. Maybe the firmware coming out this week will help?

I would assume this is a bulb problem, not firmware. However, stranger things have happened.
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post #19 of 292 Old 03-02-2011, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Shagg View Post

I would assume this is a bulb problem, not firmware. However, stranger things have happened.

No, in my case its definitely something not related to the bulb.

On my RS50/X7 with over 200 hours on the clock, with the colourprofile set to OFF, I get 1150 lumens measured.

Yet as soon as I press ANY preset such as THX, the lumens drops to 650. THat is a 40% drop!

Some bulbs are coming up a bit low as well, compounded with this huge drop in any preset, can be a struggle with larger screens that are not high gain. Yet those same screens were sufficient with previous JVC projectors such as the RS20. So we have a more powerful bulb, and a more efficient light engine that manages to end up with a lower actual output in any preset. It is bizarre!

I doubt the firmware update will fix it to be honest, because I think there is something more fundamental going on here.
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post #20 of 292 Old 03-02-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Yet as soon as I press ANY preset such as THX, the lumens drops to 650. THat is a 40% drop!

Good point. I was thinking of the cases where bulbs were coming in low across the board. If it only happens on the preset, then yeah, that doesn't sound like a bulb problem.

Does JVC usually include a "change log" or "release notes" with firmware updates? It would be nice to know what they changed/fixed.
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post #21 of 292 Old 03-03-2011, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

No, in my case its definitely something not related to the bulb.

On my RS50/X7 with over 200 hours on the clock, with the colourprofile set to OFF, I get 1150 lumens measured.

Yet as soon as I press ANY preset such as THX, the lumens drops to 650. THat is a 40% drop!

Some bulbs are coming up a bit low as well, compounded with this huge drop in any preset, can be a struggle with larger screens that are not high gain. Yet those same screens were sufficient with previous JVC projectors such as the RS20. So we have a more powerful bulb, and a more efficient light engine that manages to end up with a lower actual output in any preset. It is bizarre!

I doubt the firmware update will fix it to be honest, because I think there is something more fundamental going on here.

I am experiencing the same behavior as Jon is seeing on my RS50. Except my lumens are a bit lower overall.

With the color profile off, there is a noticeable green/blue cast. I agree, if the panels are somehow being driven this way, then any default setting is likely pulling back blue / green in some hidden setting creating the loss of lumens. Then further it with a calibration where you need to pull back blue / green even more to get an even grey scale.

I have an 2.8HP screen, so it isn't really a problem, but it could be if one was expecting something a little closer to the advertised lumen rating.. or even as bright as last years model.


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post #22 of 292 Old 03-04-2011, 03:16 AM
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Yes, the new JVC's are dimmer in Normal lamp mode at D65 than the previous generation. As measured by http://www.homecinema-fr.com/Colorim...rojecteurs.xls

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post #23 of 292 Old 03-04-2011, 04:49 PM
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Yes, the new JVC's are dimmer in Normal lamp mode at D65 than the previous generation. As measured by http://www.homecinema-fr.com/Colorim...rojecteurs.xls

Actually the lumens seem to vary some from unit to unit while the RS40/X3 are similar at D65 to last year's models but it seems many of the RS50/RS60/X7/X9 units are lower for some as yet unknown reason.

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post #24 of 292 Old 03-04-2011, 06:28 PM
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Actually the lumens seem to vary some from unit to unit while the RS40/X3 are similar at D65 to last year's models but it seems many of the RS50/RS60/X7/X9 units are lower for some as yet unknown reason.

Hi Ron,

I know that many believe that the more expensive models have less output lumens than the less expensive RS40, but I was wondering where belief came from. It seems that the number of folks who would have access to two units to compare would be a quite small sample to reach any definitive conclusions.

I did find Jason's report (quoted below), but are there others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Jon - I am really curious about this as well. I had an RS40 for about a month before receiving the RS50 and there was a noticeable brightness different between the two models with similar hours.

I have a larger sized screen @ 142" and I used to run the RS40 in high lamp and close down the iris. On the RS50 I have to run the iris wide open to achieve better brightness and even then it's not the same. I have another lamp on the way to test to be sure.

what do you think is going on her?

Thanks.

Larry



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post #25 of 292 Old 03-04-2011, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Ron,

I know that many believe that the more expensive models have less output lumens than the less expensive RS40, but I was wondering where belief came from. It seems that the number of folks who would have access to two units to compare would be a quite small sample to reach any definitive conclusions.

I did find Jason's report (quoted below), but are there others?



Thanks.

Larry

Larry -

It does seem there have been several reports of RS50 or RS60 units where the measured lumens was rather low, including the review unit JVC sent Art at Projector Reviews. At least some of these low light output issues seem to be related in some way to how CMS is working on these higher-end models as the brightness drops by a significant amount when any color profile is turned on. Also the higher-end models have a color correction filter that moves into the light path is some modes and if this works anything like it does on the Epson projectors it will have a significant impact on light output of the projector. Clearly any bulb issues should equally apply to the RS40's since they use the same bulb as the RS50 and RS60 but at this point I don't believe we know how many overly dim projectors are really having bulb issues vs. something else. On my RS40, that you have seen in action, when operated in Natural picture mode, with standard color space, 6500K, high lamp and with the iris fully openned, just today with about 50 hours on the lamp I measured 869 lumens. Of course when fed a 3D signal and with the projector projecting the 3D image the light output is lower, as reported by many reviewers.

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post #26 of 292 Old 03-05-2011, 09:05 AM
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One piece of data omitted, what throw. Going from close to far throw will drop the lumens substantially, say by 30% and putting more hours on the bulb will also decrease the lumens.

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post #27 of 292 Old 03-05-2011, 10:01 AM
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One piece of data omitted, what throw. Going from close to far throw will drop the lumens substantially, say by 30% and putting more hours on the bulb will also decrease the lumens.

Mark -

I had posted that info on the RS40 thread. I'm near the short end of throw distance with my RS40 having about a 13 ft. throw from a 120 inch 16x9 screen. Also the 869 lumens were measured using the ANSI 9 point measurement scheme and not just the peak (at the screen center).

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post #28 of 292 Old 03-05-2011, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

One piece of data omitted, what throw. Going from close to far throw will drop the lumens substantially, say by 30% and putting more hours on the bulb will also decrease the lumens.

i thought it was 15-20% for JVC's in the past?

Most folks who have measured the lumens in the RS50 thread has stated their general throw - there is a growing pattern here which doesn't add up.

How is it that the RS50/60's are dropping a substantial amount of lumens once any of the color profiles are enabled? Even professional reviewers are finding this and thinking something is wrong with the model they were sent to review. I am curious if JVC is going to cherry pick an RS60 to send to Art since his first model couldn't muster more than 500 lumens in any of the color profiles.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...ck-first-look/

@ Ron - thank you for posting the spreadsheet for the 9 point measurement. I will do this before I swap out the lamp and once again after the new lamp is installed.

Mid range throw, 150 hours on the lamp, center measurement only.

8500K / Color profile = OFF (max brightness): 786 lumens
THX mode - 455 lumens
D65 Calibrated (red is low, pulling back green / blue gain for 100% RGB) - 354 lumens

My Mitsubishi HC5500 3LCD from 3 years ago is brighter than this with lower advertised lumens.


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post #29 of 292 Old 03-05-2011, 04:13 PM
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By 30%, I am being conservative. I do not know the exact number. It won't look to ones eyes as being say 15 to 20% less bright, to ones eyes it might look 5% less bright. One must reduce the lumens by a factor of 4 to have it look 50% less bright. Calibrated, short throw, open iris, low lamp, low lamp hours I would expect less than 500 lumens. Long throw, partially shut iris, 200 lamp hours, I would expect something above 300 lumens. I am speaking of my unofficial expectations after calibrating a few 40s. I have no experiemce with ones at more than 10 hrs or so.

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post #30 of 292 Old 03-05-2011, 04:47 PM
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thanks for your insight. I would have a lot of respect for a manufacturer that was willing to advertise calibrated lumens vs. what they are doing now. It's starting to remind me of the astronomical contrast figures Epson was starting to market with the LCD projectors. You just start to ignore it, knowing it's nowhere near the truth.

I'd be curious for you to see an RS50/60 and let us know what you think. I don't think I should have ~360 D65 calibrated lumens in high lamp, open iris @ mid-range throw. THX was ~ 455.

I had an RS40 and RS50 for a week side by side and the RS40 was brighter at 150 hours than this particular RS50 was with 0 hours. I'd like to know what might be happening here considering all the lamps for these models are the same.


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