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post #91 of 264 Old 04-01-2011, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, AVS is very easy to deal with and has great customer service as always.

BTW, for people having problems with poor black levels (not the pixelation issue), it is most likely because the Auto-IRIS modes do not always automatically conform to the settings of of your projector as per the amount of reflective light in your room (basically your ANSI contrast level). It can be corrected, but it is a bit complicated, but there is a less-complex temporary fix:

Easy Temp. Fix) Change IRIS mode to Manual, close IRIS all the way (or as much as you can without losing too much brightness for your image), and possibly enable black level correction if you need to get it even lower. Go back to the PLUGE and Contrast test patterns and re-calibrate your brightness/contrast. Although in this fix, you do lose dynamic contrast, the Sony's native contrast is so high already that you probably won't miss it much, because in reality if your IRIS wasn't working correctly to begin with (wasn't getting dark enough), then the dynamic contrast was most likely only higher on the brighter scenes when the IRIS opened up (which brighter scenes have less contrast variation anyways). This will NOT fix the banding / pixelation issue in shadow detail, but it may help with getting some of your black levels darker. Actually it may slightly reduce banding as well, but results will vary.

Complex Permanent Fix) The more complex fix is to calibrate to gamma curves shown to be most favorable to this projector in the vw60 tweak threads. Then go into the service menu and adjust the panel driver settings and the IRIS service menu settings itself. You will also need to learn image director and use a meter. This will help the IRIS conform better to the specific conditions of your room lighting and area. You'll need to have some fairly decent calibration experience or else get help from forum members in that thread, you cannot copy their settings, not only would they be off by default, but since some of us have vw70's now, they'll probably be ridiculously different. These more complex fixes improve black levels and clean up any color banding issues in the lower levels of shadow details. You'll see those JVC-like blacks after doing this.

Again, see the vw60 tweaker's thread if you really want to dig into it.

Of course remember that blacks can only get as dark as your room's lighting conditions,
if you have any reflections such as white walls or furniture, you'll need to cover them up to get the best blacks.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #92 of 264 Old 04-01-2011, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yes, AVS is very easy to deal with and has great customer service as always.

BTW, for people having problems with poor black levels (not the pixelation issue), it is most likely because the Auto-IRIS modes do not always automatically conform to the settings of of your projector as per the amount of reflective light in your room (basically your ANSI contrast level). It can be corrected, but it is a bit complicated, but there is a less-complex temporary fix:

Easy Temp. Fix) Change IRIS mode to Manual, close IRIS all the way (or as much as you can without losing too much brightness for your image), and possibly enable black level correction if you need to get it even lower. Go back to the PLUGE and Contrast test patterns and re-calibrate your brightness/contrast. Although in this fix, you do lose dynamic contrast, the Sony's native contrast is so high already that you probably won't miss it much, because in reality if your IRIS wasn't working correctly to begin with (wasn't getting dark enough), then the dynamic contrast was most likely only higher on the brighter scenes when the IRIS opened up (which brighter scenes have less contrast variation anyways). This will NOT fix the banding / pixelation issue in shadow detail, but it may help with getting some of your black levels darker. Actually it may slightly reduce banding as well, but results will vary.

Complex Permanent Fix) The more complex fix is to calibrate to gamma curves shown to be most favorable to this projector in the vw60 tweak threads. Then go into the service menu and adjust the panel driver settings and the IRIS service menu settings itself. You will also need to learn image director and use a meter. This will help the IRIS conform better to the specific conditions of your room lighting and area. You'll need to have some fairly decent calibration experience or else get help from forum members in that thread, you cannot copy their settings, not only would they be off by default, but since some of us have vw70's now, they'll probably be ridiculously different. These more complex fixes improve black levels and clean up any color banding issues in the lower levels of shadow details. You'll see those JVC-like blacks after doing this.

Again, see the vw60 tweaker's thread if you really want to dig into it.

Of course remember that blacks can only get as dark as your room's lighting conditions,
if you have any reflections such as white walls or furniture, you'll need to cover them up to get the best blacks.

Does reflecting of a pain white wall affect black levels? they dont seem to be very black for my room

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post #93 of 264 Old 04-01-2011, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup, totally kills black levels.
That's your problem right there

Added
--------------
You really need to work on completely configuring the room to reduce reflections, eliminating all white or otherwise light-color surfaces.
A High Power screen by Da-Lite can also do well in helping out with this stuff if you can alter your light reflectivity paths to a more favorable part of the room (away from white areas).
I should note that projecting onto a white wall wouldn't necessarily ruin black levels if all surfaces around it were actually dark and the wall itself was not too large (more like the size of the projected image itself). That is probably rare for most people projecting onto a wall, so that is why I said, it will kill black levels.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
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post #94 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 03:46 PM
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My VW70 does not seem to have this "NR setting" under expert menu at all. Under expert settings i have the MPEG NR but that is all, which i set to middle/middle. Any ideas on where to find it?

Also my blacks do not seem to be very good at all. More gray then anything on black bars. I am coming from a Pioneer 500M but i didnt think they would be this bad unless my Sony is defective or something.

I have a high power da-lite 100".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

My VW70 does not seem to have this "NR setting" under expert menu at all. Under expert settings i have the MPEG NR but that is all, which i set to middle/middle. Any ideas on where to find it?

Also my blacks do not seem to be very good at all. More gray then anything on black bars. I am coming from a Pioneer 500M but i didnt think they would be this bad unless my Sony is defective or something.

I have a high power da-lite 100".

You need to post what your setting are and you are projecting onto a 100" 2.4 or 2.8 gain High Power?
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post #96 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

You need to post what your setting are and you are projecting onto a 100" 2.4 or 2.8 gain High Power?

It is this screen. Think its 2.4 gain:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...xed_Frame.html

I have:

contrast at 70
brightness at 35
color and hue at 50
Cinema picture mode
Medium color mode
Gamma 3
Iris is auto 1
Lamp on low

I was mostly following coderguys recommendations in this thread on settings. But i do not see a NR setting under expert menu settings other then MPEG NR. I will post a photo later tonight when the sun goes down if it helps. I dont have a 100% bat cave, but do have blackout curtains on the main window in the room. So its semi light controlled.
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post #97 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

It is this screen. Think its 2.4 gain:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...xed_Frame.html

I have:

contrast at 70
brightness at 35
color and hue at 50
Cinema picture mode
Medium color mode
Gamma 3
Iris is auto 1
Lamp on low

I was mostly following coderguys recommendations in this thread on settings. But i do not see a NR setting under expert menu settings other then MPEG NR. I will post a photo later tonight when the sun goes down if it helps. I dont have a 100% bat cave, but do have blackout curtains on the main window in the room. So its semi light controlled.

You have to set the values yourself by using a test disc. They could be completely off depending on your other equipment and their settings (BD player, PS3, computer, PVR etc. etc.) Usually you can select to output either video levels (16-235) or PC levels (0-255). This will have a huge impact on your black level. If you can find that in the menu, try to change it and see what happens.

If the brightness setting is wrong it will either make your blacks grey or kill details in dark scenes. You'll need a test pattern to set it right. For instance I have the brightness setting at 49, which is completely different from coderguys 35.
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post #98 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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The NR and MPEG NR setting are not always available depending on the source you are watching, it has to do with the codec I'm guessing or the resolution or both (it hides it sometimes). If it is hiding one, then only the one shown is being applied to the image.

Just check it again when your watching a different channel or a different source.

I was just saying maybe start there and see what looks right if you don't have a meter. Low mode might actually look better (warmer color).
You do need to calibrate contrast/brightness with a TEST disc before doing any of this.

I have heard that is the somewhat "official closest to ISF'd" mode, but it does look a little pale on skin tones for some of us, and it will vary given your conditions of your room.

You really need to calibrate, not go by my settings, heh.
I am also using an HP screen.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

It is this screen. Think its 2.4 gain:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...xed_Frame.html

I have:

contrast at 70
brightness at 35
color and hue at 50
Cinema picture mode
Medium color mode
Gamma 3
Iris is auto 1
Lamp on low

I was mostly following coderguys recommendations in this thread on settings. But i do not see a NR setting under expert menu settings other then MPEG NR. I will post a photo later tonight when the sun goes down if it helps. I dont have a 100% bat cave, but do have blackout curtains on the main window in the room. So its semi light controlled.

Do the bars look gray at night time? If you have a fair amount of ambient light in the room you will not get good black levels. The blacks can not be any darker than the screen in the room.
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post #100 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The NR and MPEG NR setting are not always available depending on the source you are watching, it has to do with the codec I'm guessing or the resolution or both (it hides it sometimes). If it is hiding one, then only the one shown is being applied to the image.

Just check it again when your watching a different channel or a different source.

I was just saying maybe start there and see what looks right if you don't have a meter. Low mode might actually look better (warmer color).
You do need to calibrate contrast/brightness with a TEST disc before doing any of this.

I have heard that is the somewhat "official closest to ISF'd" mode, but it does look a little pale on skin tones for some of us, and it will vary given your conditions of your room.

You really need to calibrate, not go by my settings, heh.
I am also using an HP screen.

Oh ive tried other settings i found online and just playing around and nothing really looked better than another. The only source i have hooked up is my PS3 for DVD and Blu-Ray. I was trying Kung-Fu Panda blu-ray just to test it out.
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post #101 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

You have to set the values yourself by using a test disc. They could be completely off depending on your other equipment and their settings (BD player, PS3, computer, PVR etc. etc.) Usually you can select to output either video levels (16-235) or PC levels (0-255). This will have a huge impact on your black level. If you can find that in the menu, try to change it and see what happens.

If the brightness setting is wrong it will either make your blacks grey or kill details in dark scenes. You'll need a test pattern to set it right. For instance I have the brightness setting at 49, which is completely different from coderguys 35.

I did not see the bolded in the VW70 menu but ill look again. The only source i have is the PS3 hooked up for both DVD and BD. Oh ive tried all kinds of settings but nothing seems to POP to me. Maybe if i could find that NR setting Coderguy mentioned it would help but if i only have 1 source maybe it just wont be showing up.
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post #102 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Do the bars look gray at night time? If you have a fair amount of ambient light in the room you will not get good black levels. The blacks can not be any darker than the screen in the room.

Tonight will be my first night with it so i guess i dont know 100% yet. But ill definately take a photo either way tonight.
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post #103 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

I did not see the bolded in the VW70 menu but ill look again. The only source i have is the PS3 hooked up for both DVD and BD.

Look in the PS3 setup menu, it should have this option.
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post #104 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

Tonight will be my first night with it so i guess i dont know 100% yet. But ill definately take a photo either way tonight.

I suspect that the blacks will be much better at night due to less ambient light in the room.
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post #105 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I suspect that the blacks will be much better at night due to less ambient light in the room.

Unless he lives on the North Pole during the summer.


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post #106 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 06:55 PM
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I have a slightly brighter VW85 and to all not seeing amazing black levels, if your room is white or light colored walls, and you have lights nearby when watching anything, you'll crush the black levels, as the room will be illuminated even dark scenes. Let's say the ambient adds 50% of light to a dark scene, and you don't need much light for that to happen, then if you had 1/15,000 native contrast. But the already present light (let's say it adds a constant light equivalent to 2000 times the value of the darkest color the projetor can offer), then...when you factor that in, you will have 2000/17000 (just adding 2000 to both terms) or a 2/17 contrast rate...which is horrible and why it looks like crap. Now suppose your white walls and screen choice reflects a lot of light. Suppose you get back 25% of the screen brightness back to it as it bounces on walls, in terms of average light. Now, what you have is a relatively good black level when the scene is extremely black with just very few parts that are very bright, as you eye sense the contrast, as that particular image is overall dim with some local bright parts. But when you have more white, lots more are bounced back. The whiter the scene (larger % of image area is bright white), the more that is reflected back. So in those scenes, you will get the 25% of light added to the scene. Suppose your projector can do 16,000 native there. 25% back means you add 4,000 back. So the light will be in the relation of 4,000/20,000 (I am just adding 4,000 to both terms). That's 1/5 contrast. I am exaggerating a bit, but even if it only adds 5% back, you get 1/500, as the baseline gets crushed by that 5% increase in light. This is why even with caves, if the walls are white or reflective, you get extremely average contrast.

In the case of having ambient light, your only choice is to get a light canon that make the ambient light in relative terms much better, Doesn't matter if the projector is 1/2,000 as long as it can eclipse ambient light, you'll see a huge improvement. On the white walls or reflective rooms, your best bet is using a gain screen that will make sure the light is reflected backwards, and that overall, you'll be dimming the projector a lot for correctness. That will reduce the amount of light bounced back (there will be much less light bounced, and that coming from angles will not be reflected much, and that reflected from the back will be less as well. You can only enhance contrast in light colored rooms where you see "the room becomes well lit in bright scenes" with a different screen, or by reducing the screen size (and lowering lumens you'll need less for a smaller screen) or by finding ways to make the reflections go away (which means walls that will absorb, not reflect light) or only watch horror movies with little light on them.

All in all, if you have a room with poor light control and/or reflective walls, your investment will not shine in terms of black levels. You'll need to invest more in the future. And I mean, it will probably such at having great black levels.

I wish there was a tool to estimate your contrast rate given a % of reflectivity as measured from having all black walls, the kind of screen, the projector native CR, the max ansi lumens, and the ambient light in some measure. It will help you compare real case scenarios.

btw, my walls are white and I see blacks crushed in very lit scenes. On very dark scenes it excels. And I can't watch anything during the day. On the other hand, it's perfectly ok for me right now, and I think the 85 does a good job at keeping me happy (but I am not yet making it proud of itself).
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post #107 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

I did not see the bolded in the VW70 menu but ill look again. The only source i have is the PS3 hooked up for both DVD and BD. Oh ive tried all kinds of settings but nothing seems to POP to me. Maybe if i could find that NR setting Coderguy mentioned it would help but if i only have 1 source maybe it just wont be showing up.


I went to best buy magnolia, they had a JVC projector rs450 or rs40 dont remember. I didnt see that POP look that you get on T.V's where the the image is alot sharper and when theres motion in the picture it gives you that sort of "gut"/ light headed feeling. The guy there told me that in projectors you dont get that effect on 1080p content. This being my first projector I was expecting that. Was the sales man right or are my setting simply not set up how they should be?

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post #108 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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No way man, if you saw Hawaii an Island Symphony on the Sony vw or the Mits I was using, you would have been blown to smitherines.

You need a properly setup room, a good screen, and a calibrated projector (or at least one with decent settings).

Just like looking out a window on scenes where the camera man did good enough, and come on look how picky I am, you've probably read some of my stuff, I see the faults in everything, I'm cursed.

But let me tell you, some of the images I saw on that Bluray were absolutely window perfect with those projectors. If I had some good drugs (no, I dont do drugs), or maybe even a couple beers, I'm sure I could have convinced myself it was a window and went for a swim

I had a family member come over that knows nothing about TV, their comment was, OMG that is better than an IMAX. You might not get the proportional black levels of a TV, but you can certainly get every bit of POP in bright to even fairly dark scenes.


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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

No way man, if you saw Hawaii an Island Symphony on the Sony vw or the Mits I was using, you would have been blown to smitherines.

I had a family member come over that knows nothing about TV, their comment was, OMG that is better than an IMAX. You might not get the proportional black levels of a TV, but you can certainly get every bit of POP in bright to even fairly dark scenes.

can you please tell me ur settings, because I get alot of deatail on the image but i dont get that blu-ray feel .

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post #110 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Setting up a projector isn't that simple, I can't just tell you my settings, it wont help at all.
My settings were based on a custom gamma curve to get the Mits and Sony to match, I don't have them written down though, and the Sony is already boxed up.

Try Art's settings from his review.


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Originally Posted by deathinc View Post

I went to best buy magnolia, they had a JVC projector rs450 or rs40 dont remember. I didnt see that POP look that you get on T.V's where the the image is alot sharper and when theres motion in the picture it gives you that sort of "gut"/ light headed feeling. The guy there told me that in projectors you dont get that effect on 1080p content. This being my first projector I was expecting that. Was the sales man right or are my setting simply not set up how they should be?

I have an LCD (Pro8100) that gives me pop like my single chip DLP's do. The depth of the image when watching a BD like Avatar is great. The Pro8100 is known for having a good lens and very good convergence.
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post #112 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Setting up a projector isn't that simple, I can't just tell you my settings, it wont help at all.
My settings were based on a custom gamma curve to get the Mits and Sony to match, I don't have them written down though, and the Sony is already boxed up.

Try Art's settings from his review.

what happend to your vw70?

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post #113 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Nothing, I am just going to call Sony and talk to them about the banding issue, then I will decide what to do with it.
I think my banding / pixelation issue is worse than you guys, pretty sure after seeing everyone's thoughts in the vw60 forum. Even then mine isn't terrible, but I am a bit OCD.


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post #114 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Nothing, I am just going to call Sony and talk to them about the banding issue, then I will decide what to do with it.
I think my banding / pixelation issue is worse than you guys, pretty sure after seeing everyone's thoughts in the vw60 forum. Even then mine isn't terrible, but I am a bit OCD.

Well Ive been playing around with the projector and guess what, the image is AWESOME now . I improved the image quality and then I decided to put Tron DVD. Upscaled it to 1080p and WOW it looked even better than Minority Report BD. I found out that the Blu-ray movie I rented was not very good, it had a lot of image noise and did not give a "POP" look. The Standard Tron dvd looked a lot better believe it or not.

I think I LOVE my projector now

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Sony VPL-VW70 Pojector, Xbox 360 250GB, Yamaha RX-V573
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post #115 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Yah, it's all about what you watch.

If you like scenery and want some realistic looking beaches (far more realism than Planet Earth series), go grab you a copy of the Hawaii An Island Symphony Bluray on Amazon, it will blow you out of the water (literally), I promise.

If you want to see some realistic looking mountain stuff, try some of the IMAX ones (link below), you'll swear you're looking through a window when the train scenes come around, as well as the ICE CLIMBER is so realistic looking that it ALMOST scared me when I watched it.

http://www.amazon.com/IMAX-Alps-Adel.../dp/B000X73NAE

Neither of these would be any good to watch on a TV, but both of them are amazing on a projector.

The waves from the Hawaii bluray will look like the water is about to hit your face at times. They aren't exciting or anything like a movie is, but they are cool looking.

They both make you feel like your at an IMAX instead of your own theater.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #116 of 264 Old 04-03-2011, 10:09 PM
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Tomorrow I will take some screen shots!

Av123 Onix Rockets RS1000 , AV123 RSC200 BIGFOOT, B&W WM6 White, Denon AVR-4311CI 9.2
DIY Stereo Integrity SI 18" Subwoofer X2, HTPC Running XBMC 14TB , Roku HD Player
Sony VPL-VW70 Pojector, Xbox 360 250GB, Yamaha RX-V573
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post #117 of 264 Old 04-04-2011, 06:38 AM
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Do the bars look gray at night time? If you have a fair amount of ambient light in the room you will not get good black levels. The blacks can not be any darker than the screen in the room.

Ok so i waited until night time and the room was almost pitch black and yes the bars were still obviously gray. I played with every setting i could in the PS3 and VW70 trying to get it too look better. From what ive read on the PS3 the RGB range should be "limited" and superwhite "on" which is how it was previously set up on my plasma. I changed those settings just to see but to no avail. Still washed out blacks.

I also tried taking some pictures but i dont think my point and shoot is good enough, the pictures just came out looking black. Isnt able to pick up what our naked eyes can see between the gray and black.

Wondering if i have a defective B-Stock and maybe time to return it for something else. I dont have a calibration disk but i played with every imaginable setting and nothing made anything pop and get rid of the gray blacks.
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post #118 of 264 Old 04-04-2011, 07:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

Ok so i waited until night time and the room was almost pitch black and yes the bars were still obviously gray. I played with every setting i could in the PS3 and VW70 trying to get it too look better. From what ive read on the PS3 the RGB range should be "limited" and superwhite "on" which is how it was previously set up on my plasma. I changed those settings just to see but to no avail. Still washed out blacks.

I also tried taking some pictures but i dont think my point and shoot is good enough, the pictures just came out looking black. Isnt able to pick up what our naked eyes can see between the gray and black.

Wondering if i have a defective B-Stock and maybe time to return it for something else. I dont have a calibration disk but i played with every imaginable setting and nothing made anything pop and get rid of the gray blacks.

The top and bottom bars will never be completely black. Were you expecting them to be completely black? Also I suspect that the image with new lamp and High Power screen is too bright and that is why it looks washed out. You really need a calibration disc for setting brightness and contrast. First thing that I would do is a factory reset to get everything back to factory out of box standards just in case something odd was left on.
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post #119 of 264 Old 04-04-2011, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by soulcougher73 View Post

Ok so i waited until night time and the room was almost pitch black and yes the bars were still obviously gray.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=16
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post #120 of 264 Old 04-04-2011, 07:24 AM
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Why did you link that? It takes me nowhere special.
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