What a difference a few years make - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 06-08-2011, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I bought a Marantz VP12S3 when it came out years ago. I still use it and love it. There was no blu-ray at the time, only those HD tapes that are now a thing of the past. After I bought it, I stopped following this projectors forum and focused on other ones (blu-ray players, video processors etc).
Last night I opened this forum again and... wow. Marantz doesn't even make projectors anymore. That was a shock.
Prices have dropped significantly too.
So now, if I'm considering to upgrade my projector again. But I have to re-learn everything.
Do they still make projectors with the build quality that marantz had?
Are JVC and Sony today's Marantz in terms of reliability and built quality? Is SXRD the new king in terms of picture quality and contrast?
I watched a movie with a Sony SXRD projector at a friend's place and was quite underwhelmed. Maybe it was his setup. But it made me wonder.
Are today's model so much superior to the projector I still have at home?
Funny how a few years of... distraction can turn you into a newbie again.
If you have a minute, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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post #2 of 27 Old 06-08-2011, 10:22 PM
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You'll probably want to look at some of the DLP projectors, too. Great picture, and great value.

Michael
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post #3 of 27 Old 06-09-2011, 01:08 AM
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DLP so far in most cases still provides better POP in bright scenes, but not as good black levels.

Check out the Mits hc4000 (sub $1500, so-so black levels, but a very good projector)
Benq w6000 (around $2k, decent black levels)
Infocus sp8602 (around $3k, depends on current sales, better blacks than most DLP's)

For LCOS:
JVC HD250 or RS40, or Sony vw90, etc...
They have all black levels to die for, but they aren't quite as sharp.

You sound more like a DLP POP kind of guy, so I'd probably stick with DLP if you felt the Sony underwhelmed. Remember though, it could have just been his calibration.



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post #4 of 27 Old 06-09-2011, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostchild View Post
I bought a Marantz VP12S3 when it came out years ago. I still use it and love it. There was no blu-ray at the time, only those HD tapes that are now a thing of the past. After I bought it, I stopped following this projectors forum and focused on other ones (blu-ray players, video processors etc).
Last night I opened this forum again and... wow. Marantz doesn't even make projectors anymore. That was a shock.
Prices have dropped significantly too.
So now, if I'm considering to upgrade my projector again. But I have to re-learn everything.
Do they still make projectors with the build quality that marantz had?
Are JVC and Sony today's Marantz in terms of reliability and built quality? Is SXRD the new king in terms of picture quality and contrast?
I watched a movie with a Sony SXRD projector at a friend's place and was quite underwhelmed. Maybe it was his setup. But it made me wonder.
Are today's model so much superior to the projector I still have at home?
Funny how a few years of... distraction can turn you into a newbie again.
If you have a minute, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think you probably have a better all around projector than anything you can buy now in the sub $4000 range. They have come up with ways to increase contrast and light output but most of it is smoke and mirrors with fancy dynamic iris that cut down the light..
Your projector has a .9" Chip, 5x 7 segment color wheel, vertical lens shift and a very high quality lens. Lumen and contrast NUMBERS are a bit low compared to the lies told by today's manufactures..
If I were you, I would make sure whatever you buy, can be returned at no cost just in case the increase in resolution does not trump all the rest of the things that make a good image.
Please PM me when you are ready to sell your Marantz!

Doug

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post #5 of 27 Old 06-09-2011, 05:25 AM
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JVC is a very very popular choice.

Good reviews can be found

http://www.projectorreviews.com/
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/
http://www.hometheater.com/
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post #6 of 27 Old 06-09-2011, 01:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I think you probably have a better all around projector than anything you can buy now in the sub $4000 range. They have come up with ways to increase contrast and light output but most of it is smoke and mirrors with fancy dynamic iris that cut down the light..
Your projector has a .9" Chip, 5x 7 segment color wheel, vertical lens shift and a very high quality lens. Lumen and contrast NUMBERS are a bit low compared to the lies told by today's manufactures..
If I were you, I would make sure whatever you buy, can be returned at no cost just in case the increase in resolution does not trump all the rest of the things that make a good image.
Please PM me when you are ready to sell your Marantz!

If you are talking actual cost, I disagree. There are still a few Marantz VP-15S1's around and that projector will throw a much nicer image than the 12S3. Even the 12S4 was considered a big step up compared to the 12S3. Now if you are talking current production projectors, then it depends on what you value most in an image.

Buying my 12S4 a few years ago for ten cents on the dollar was one of my best (if not the best) HT purchases I have ever made. I got it for next to nothing because manufacturers were having to dump their high end 720P projectors because of all the hype over 1080P. People just were not going to pay 1.5k for a 720P projector when they could get a 1080P (entry level) projector for that price.
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post #7 of 27 Old 06-09-2011, 09:48 PM
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Look at the Runco LS-3 or 5 great DLPs with a dynamic iris that works. It is operated like a speaker with a coil not a step motor so it reacts right away.

David

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post #8 of 27 Old 12-12-2012, 07:43 AM
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I'm in the same boat now. I currently have the Marantz VP12S4 projector. And I was wondering if there were any projectors that stack up to the Marantz. Don't know of any right off. Need help!!!
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post #9 of 27 Old 12-24-2012, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies.
Still investigating what to buy if I end up replacing my Marantz VP12S3. I just read the "Best of 2012" list here on AVS and since I couldn't care less about 3D, I was wondering what to expect from JVC's DLA-RS45 projector compared to my old Marantz. Different technology, lots of years passed. a 3.5K retail price compared to over 12K for the Marantz at the time of its release.
Would the upgrade be worth it? And would it actually be an upgrade?

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post #10 of 27 Old 12-24-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostchild View Post

Thanks for all the replies.
Still investigating what to buy if I end up replacing my Marantz VP12S3. I just read the "Best of 2012" list here on AVS and since I couldn't care less about 3D, I was wondering what to expect from JVC's DLA-RS45 projector compared to my old Marantz. Different technology, lots of years passed. a 3.5K retail price compared to over 12K for the Marantz at the time of its release.
Would the upgrade be worth it? And would it actually be an upgrade?

It would be a very nice upgrade to get a JVC. I have owned the Marantz VP12S1 & the Marantz VP12S4. I really liked the sharpness of both units but wanted a better black level. I got that with the JVC RS40. My JVC is very sharp as well and the native contrast is so much better. The JVC's are way brighter than the Marantz's as well. Since you, like me, don't care about 3D, the JVC puts out the best 2D image in this price range.

Mike

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post #11 of 27 Old 12-24-2012, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.
Anything I should know about the difference in technologies between the two? D-ILA now vs D-ILA and DLP 10 years ago?

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post #12 of 27 Old 12-25-2012, 06:47 AM
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Ten years ago the motion with D-ILA was not as good as it is now and the difference in contrast between D-ILA and DLP was not as great as is is today. I would certainly take one of the new JVC's over a Marantz VP-12S3 and this is coming from a guy that still has a Marantz VP-12S4, which was a pretty big step up from the 12S3. I also own a JVC and I watch all of my movies on the JVC. I just use the Marantz for HDTV. The contrast and processing in the 12S4 is much better than the 12S3.

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post #13 of 27 Old 12-25-2012, 10:45 PM
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I have a Marantz VP-11s2, I think one of the last models they made.

I had it calibrated to get the best black(s) at the time.
My screen is 114 inches.

I stopped recently in a Media store and did not see where the Sony that they had was any upgrade.

Am I still ahead of the game or at least on par with my unit or do I get serious and start the process of buying and selling a projector.

As I stated Black level and contrast are important to me.

Greg
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post #14 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 06:32 AM
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I have the Marantz VP-15S1 and I still haven`t seen a sharper projector than it. I like the JVC `s for the black levels but not for the pop that is missing. They also have a motion problem that I can`t get past. The newest models I haven`t seen so can`t comment on them.
I will be keeping the Marantz for a while longer.
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post #15 of 27 Old 12-27-2012, 07:07 PM
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I have owned several DLPs from the Infocus X1, Infocus SP4805, Toshiba ET20U, Sharp DT-510, Optoma H78DC3, Optoma H79 and have even owned a couple of CRTs (which spoiled me) such as the ECP 4500+ and the NEC 6PG. Also tried the JVC RS-1, then go the RS15U and decided to keep the RS15U. Both were big upgrades over ever other digital projector I owned. It was the RS15U that gave me near CRT black levels, but with the brightness of a digital. I immediately notice how much superior it was over my Optoma H79, which was a $5,000+ DLP in its heyday. The RS15 was much brighter, much darker blacks, much brighter whites, more depth, more realistic, etc. Not to mention it has a 3 step iris, customizable gamma, motorized lens cover, lens shift and much more. The projector still blows me away. The native contrast of JVCs are what stand out. They are CRT like. I wanted to avoid a dynamic iris.

I run a 13 foot diagonal screen. You can't go wrong with JVC RS series D-ILA home cinema projectors. They're amazing.
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post #16 of 27 Old 01-02-2013, 10:50 AM
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I have a few questions that needed to be asked when I bought the Marantz VP-11S2 but only reminded me over the weekend in visiting a neighbors house.

He has had a JVC and Sony and mentioned that his bulb lasts about 15,000 hours and costs around $250-300 dollars to replace.

Obviously I had no way of verifying that and at this point take him at his word.

The Marantz states that the bulb only lasts 2000 hours and the replacement is $600.00, you can get just the bulb but it is not that much cheaper and then I would run the risk of having to get involved in the housing part.

If true, can someone explain the extreme discrepancy in the amount of hours and the bulb costs ?

If for no other reason then to satisfy my mind and curiosity as I still think it is as good as anything I have seen.

Thanks

Greg
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-02-2013, 04:09 PM
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I think a zero was mistakenly added; 1500 - 2000 hr (claimed) is very typical

Noah
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-02-2013, 05:03 PM
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Hi:
Quote:
"I think a zero was mistakenly added; 1500 - 2000 hr (claimed) is very typical"

No, my neighbor did say 15,000, fifteen thousand hours.

I hate to have to break the news to him if you are right.

Every time I go over there his 3 kids are playing video games on the PS.

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post #19 of 27 Old 01-03-2013, 08:06 PM
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Well it's easy enough to look at the spec's

Noah
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post #20 of 27 Old 01-03-2013, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee14 View Post

Hi:
Quote:
"I think a zero was mistakenly added; 1500 - 2000 hr (claimed) is very typical"
No, my neighbor did say 15,000, fifteen thousand hours.
I hate to have to break the news to him if you are right.
Every time I go over there his 3 kids are playing video games on the PS.
Greg

Unless it's an LED based projector there are none out there that have a bulb that lasts 15000 hours. So if that's number he said he is either mistaken or its an LED based projector.

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post #21 of 27 Old 01-04-2013, 08:53 AM
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Thanks, that makes me feel a lot better.

I think he will be in for a big surprise.
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-04-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee14 View Post

Thanks, that makes me feel a lot better.
I think he will be in for a big surprise.

Neither JVC or Sony currently has an LED model, so the point is moot.

Anyhow, I see that you're in New York. I'm sure there's a showroom somewhere that you could go to to look at projectors. I currently have a JVC RS20, which I love, though the 60Hz panels are a little slow compared to some newer models. I just went to two of my local home theater stores, Definitive Audio and Magnolia in Bellevue, WA, to see their offerings and I was not impressed (relatively speaking since I was comparing to my JVC). Granted, all of their setups look great and are in dedicated theaters, unlike mine, however mine still looked better. The projectors I saw were: Runco LS-5, Sony VPL-VW1000 (pretty much identical blacks and color to my JVC, but also costs $25k with the added benefit of 4K), Runco 650i, Runco 450d. Their JVC units were not installed as they are transitioning to the new models, but I assume they'll be pretty much the same as my RS20 with ever-so-slightly better blacks, slightly sharper image, and better motion handling. I've seen the past models, but don't remember much other than I loved them.

Don't get me wrong, DLP is great. BUT, it simply isn't up to par with the new LCOS models from JVC.

What I would advise you do is buy a used model on either eBay, Videogon, or a B-stock model from AVS. Then, try it out and see what you think. If you love it, then either keep it and know you got a great deal, or sell it back for nearly what you paid (buying used and then selling used within a week or two shouldn't result in really any price difference) and buy an even better model from the series. This is what I did and I just ended up keeping the RS20. I'll upgrade again in a few years when lasers and 4K is more widely supported and affordable.

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post #23 of 27 Old 01-04-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosteh View Post

Don't get me wrong, DLP is great. BUT, it simply isn't up to par with the new LCOS models from JVC.

To each their own. I owned an RS20 for about 6 months. Then I moved to the LS-5 (PD8150) and I thought it blew the JVC out of the water for overall picture quality. You're right, everyone should visit a showroom to see which technology suits them best. You don't need to spend a fortune to get great picture quality anymore especially when looking in the used and b-stock market.

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post #24 of 27 Old 01-04-2013, 01:06 PM
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What exactly did you prefer about the Runco? I kept looking for a reason to buy it since I prefer the DLP "look" but I just couldn't get past the massive contrast difference. The salesman showed me the opening scene in Avatar where the spaceship is shown in space with a starry background and I couldn't believe how much more the RS20 showed. I really live the DLP motion handling, though. I hope JVC will release some 240Hz or 480Hz panel models soon to close that gap.

To the OP, I would like to add that using the logic that since you got a projector for $12k a number of years ago that it should still be better than most projectors today would be unwise. I don't doubt your projector is great, but I also wouldn't be surprised if most newer models in the $2500-$3000 market would kick it in the ass. Unfortunately, price doesn't depreciate evenly as technology improves, so you'll always be fighting newer, better tech that can be sold comparatively cheaper than the then newer and better tech that was in your Marantz when you bought it.

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post #25 of 27 Old 01-04-2013, 07:05 PM
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A few things I like tremendously more; Sharpness, ANSI contrast, motion resolution, and how motion looked in general. Apart from the technical talk, the images on screen have a very "calm" look to them. The only other projector I've seen do this is my current Marantz VP-11S1. It's hard to describe and something that needs to be experienced. It gives movies a true film like experience. In essence it doesn't look digital in the slightest.

I also think that build quality overall matches and exceeds in some areas as I've seen the insides of both. JVC uses a lot more plastic inside than the Planar did. The lens is also fantastic on both but I'd give the Planar the prize here. As far as black levels are concerned, and I sort of steal this comment from Art over at projectorreviews.com, once you hit a certain black level (when you actually perceive blacks as black and not some shade of grey) other things come into play a lot more in your projector decision. I just think that unless your only concern is contrast ratio the Runco/Planar beats JVC in every other area when it comes to picture quality. This projector has it all. Great on/off contrast ratio (one of the best for DLP), really good ANSI contrast, the larger .95" DLP DMD, decently bright for a D65 calibrated unit (around 650 lumens), a bulb that lasts a long time without very much brightness loss, very sharp image, DLP motion and motion handling, two lens options, one of the best dynamic irises in the business, and tons of stuff to play with in the menus for those who like to tweak and play around.

You may be someone who's biggest concern is on/off contrast measurements and that's fine. I value a lot more than that. This projector does better than a lot of other projectors in on/off numbers plus has the benefit of what I mentioned above. I've owned three JVC units RS10, RS20, and an X3. There's a reason I've sold all three. I just don't think they can match the image quality the Planar/Runco or the Marantz offer.

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post #26 of 27 Old 01-04-2013, 08:22 PM
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Lost.....quick and dirty analysis:

without reciting my history of PJ's and gadgets in general, i think i can be helpful as i also owned a $10k 720p DLP "back in the day," which replaced a $15k 480p DLP from a few years earlier.

given the fact that we spent that kind of money back then, i would assume you also spent on screen, light control, tinkered with calibration, etc. we were ahead of the curve.

then i was forced to replace the 720p three years ago. i went with a $3,000 Sony 1080p SXRD, because the better JVC d-iLA (RS-1?) was $5,000.

there was no looking back....as source material crept up to 1080p, the shear detail improvement was overwhelming -- and i prefer a less detailed film-like presentation. the black level obsession became a thing of the past...as did fan noise and heat.

fast forward to today...Sony dies...i just bought the Panny 8000 (also $3,000). black levels are so improved over the 3 year old sony that i can only imagine your reaction. and 3D comes free, but i haven't even tried it yet.

build quality is a different story....mediocre. skimping on lens quality is apparent to me, yet not one review comments on optics. but the vast improvements in electronics more than compensate in my opinion.

the PJ experience will still cost you $1,000 a year, but from now on you will be buying a more mass produced product more frequently.

i also assume you upgraded source equipment over time...otherwise, those deficiencies will be magnified with the new crop of PJ's.

the biggest problem i find when shopping is that the ONLY comparison that is valid will be an A/B swap of your Marantz for something new in the precise environment. Holding all else equal, i can assure you from experience, that today's PJ's in the $3000 range kill what we old timers fondly remember.....
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-06-2013, 01:09 PM
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Just fyi everyone commenting on the benefits of lcos are comparing a 1080 pj to your 1280 and their 1280 dlp machines that they owned. I have a Samsung joe Kane spa900b projector. Its a 2009 1080 dlp model. This pj has the .95 dmd and superior optics. The Runco, Marantz VP-11S1, Samsung are the true high end 1080 dlp models not what was mentioned above(they were mid range 1280 and budget 480 pjs at their time). What everyone is commenting about is the resolution and lumen difference between said machines. Yes a budget 1080 machine can outshine your 1280 pj be it lcos or dlp. But as Seegs said:

"A few things I like tremendously more; Sharpness, ANSI contrast, motion resolution, and how motion looked in general. Apart from the technical talk, the images on screen have a very "calm" look to them. The only other projector I've seen do this is my current Marantz VP-11S1. It's hard to describe and something that needs to be experienced. It gives movies a true film like experience. In essence it doesn't look digital in the slightest."


Since you are coming from a dlp I believe you owe it to yourself to check out these B stock or the Runco which is new but based on the same dmd as those mentioned. I have seen the Qualia and the dila and rs20. I would take them over a budget dlp but not over my samsung. the only upgrade path for me would be 3 chip dlp. A led dlp would be a lateral maneuver in my opinion. There is a quality to the build of these projectors and it shows in the picture.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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Marantz , Mitsubishi Hc4000 300 Inch 1080p Front Projector , Benq W6000 1080p Dlp Projector , Infocus Screenplay 8602 Wuxga Dlp Projector , Jvc Dla Rs40u , Sony Vpl Vw90es 3d 240hz Sxrd Projector , Runco Ls 5 Projector , Jvc Dla Rs45 Home Theater Projector 1080p Hdmi
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