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post #91 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

How are these straight out of the box with only user friendly adjustments being made?

Related and more specific question. What are all the factory preset settings that should be selected to get the closest to D65 and best contrast ratio "out of the box" in 2D and 3D before any adjustments/calibration?

Are these correct and if not please advise.

Pic Viewing Mode: Standard?
Cinema Black Pro: Auto 1?
Motionflow: Low?
Color Temp: Low 1?
Gamma: Off (2.2)?
Color Space: Normal

Any other settings too.
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post #92 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 04:19 AM
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does the 3D in the projector has any form of ghosting?

i like to pick this projctor up in a few months. but wondering about the 3D. the 3D in sony tvs is really terrible. lots of ghosting. so i was wondering i fthey fixed that for this projector.

thanks
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post #93 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 04:22 AM
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RGA. Read the above posts. Look at the nice colored graphs. Like most but not all projectors today, if you choose the right preset settings, see the ones they measured before calibration, you will see that things are pretty good without calibration. The colors with respect to luminance are off out of the box. Enogh so that anyone who really cares about color accuracy would probably want to correct them. But without correction, the average consumer would probably be quite happy.

They can be fixed very easily without needing an external processor. You need a probe such as the Display 3 Pro and standard Chromapure and the RCP system in the user controls of the Sony will allow you to fix this easily.

The cost of getting a really good probe has come way down and programs to make readings off the probe and generate pretty graphs have come way down too. I expect in the future we will see even more automation features with such programs allowing even the truly inept home calibrator to connect his lap top up to the projector, hook the probe up to the same computer, aim the probe at the screen, press a few keys and go have a good German beer and some sausage, come back and have almost a perfectly calibrated projector.

Right now, no one has an automation calibration program for the Sony and one would have to manipulate the RCP controls but this appears very easy.

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post #94 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 04:46 AM
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The question asked above is can you see ghosting in 3D. I suspect that will depend on the test material, not how it was made, but the contrast differences being tested, and the settings chosen by the operator for 3D. Ghosting is an artifact caused by visual cross talk. In all 3D systems used to view an image off of a screen, there will be some degree of cross talk. Different viewers will have different thresholds for seeing it as ghosting and it will be very content and display system settings dependent.

Recently certain torture test patterns have been available to allow visual as distinguished for audio cross talk to be measured quantatively. Once again, projector settings and such things as polarization extinction numbers for the screen for passive systems will come into play.

Does the Sony eliminate cross talk? No projection 3D system can. Does it eliminate seeing that cross talk as ghosting? Let's say it will make cross talk less noticeable than the prior generation but with certain material, under certain settings, there still will be some ghosting. Practicality entering into the discussion, cross talk simply can't be totally eliminated.

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post #95 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes this is correct :

Picture mode : cinéma 1
Cinema black pro : auto 1
Motionflow : low
Color temp : low 1
Gamma off
Color space : Normal


You have the best results in 2D without calibration with this settings.

I will only begin my 3D tests tonight.

Hi Mark I totally agree with your comments
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post #96 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 06:32 AM
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I have looked at the graphs in this thread and many others in other threads, but I have no idea what I am looking at. I do see the difference in the luminance, but again do not know what all this means.

I will try to find a website somewhere explaining what the graphs mean.

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post #97 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 07:23 AM
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Hi RGA. You can go to the cailibration forum and read up some basics about color. This is not the right forum to explain other than very very briefly what the graphs mean and what each graph tells us.

There are various image factors beyond black levels, on off contrasts etc which affect projector performance as well as certain color performance paramerters about gray scale, chromaticity, etc. Then there is gamma.

Just let's say what you want to see on those xy graphs are the points (circles) within or very near the boxes (the boxes represent where the three primary colors should be, the three secondary colors should be, and the white point in the middle). Besides the xy points, one neads to have the luminosity right. Color performance is a three point measurement for each color and the graph with the points only plots two. The luminosity bar graph shows how far the luminosity is of for the primaries and secondaries. Luminosity? Read up on what luminosity is.

There is gray scale and one wants to see the bars all equal in height more or less and a temperature near 6500K. Gamma. One wants to see a straight line at 2.2. THere is a lot more to gamma, and gamma numbers are a user choice and the actual gammas are curves with the straight line measuring deviation from the curve.

Anyhow. You can see the Sony measures pretty well out of the box but does suffer some luminosity errors. A little work and it can be quickly gotten to very very good performance.

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post #98 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

I have looked at the graphs in this thread and many others in other threads, but I have no idea what I am looking at. I do see the difference in the luminance, but again do not know what all this means.

I will try to find a website somewhere explaining what the graphs mean.

if you are interested in learning the basics of calibration, check out Kal's guide here:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

there is good practical information to read and learn about calibration.

I am impressed with various initial measurements for out of the box settings, especially when compared to my RS50 with it's default settings. IMO, the enthusiast with a keen eye would immediately see what's wrong with my RS50 out of the box. Red is VERY weak in this projector for some reason, I have calibrated 2 different lamps with similar results. This requires pulling down large amounts of green/blue to compensate. This comes at the expense of lumens.

if the grey scale is respectably level to begin with, you aren't going to lose too much light by trying to get it correct to D65.

I am looking forward to dusting off my Chroma 5 Pro / Chromapure setup on monday night to dial in the Sony. It sounds like it won't take long at all compared to painful hours upon hours on my RS50 with it's buggy CMS and Gamma controls. Fix the gamma, then fix the grey scale.. fix the gamma.. then fix the greyscale.. an endless loop which shouldn't be happening for what the RS50 costs.
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post #99 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 07:50 AM
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Zombie: feel free to post up your settings for us lazy individuals

I am going to put at least 50 hours on mine before I calibrate it for my specific screen.
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post #100 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 07:54 AM
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zombie10K,

Since you are probably getting your's first are you going to start the "Official VLP-HW30ES Owners" thread?
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post #101 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

I have looked at the graphs in this thread and many others in other threads, but I have no idea what I am looking at. I do see the difference in the luminance, but again do not know what all this means.

I will try to find a website somewhere explaining what the graphs mean.

Since you seem interested you should attend an ISF or THX calibration class next time one is offered in Dallas (your sig says LA). You will learn all the basics/theories/practices. I've attended both and they were very informative and not at all "class room boring".
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post #102 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Yes this is correct :

Picture mode : cinéma 1
Cinema black pro : auto 1
Motionflow : low
Color temp : low 1
Gamma off
Color space : Normal


You have the best results in 2D without calibration with this settings.

I will only begin my 3D tests tonight.

Hi Mark I totally agree with your comments

Thanks Kraine,

Hard to believe I guess right on all of them. Now if I could just do that with the lotto numbers......
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post #103 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

zombie10K,

Since you are probably getting your's first are you going to start the "Official VLP-HW30ES Owners" thread?

technically the first owners are Kraine, Cine4home & Clehner..

I appreciate these guys taking the time to post the initial measurements, it will be interesting to see how sample variance plays a role when I calibrate mine.

if no one else creates the thread by Monday night, I'll set it up. My plan is to calibrate it and then run through some of my 2D reference disks and then on to the 3D settings. I have just about ever single piece of 3D content available, but the torture test is the Monster V. Alien Bridge scene and any scene in 'Sammy's Adventure' which crushes my RS50 in regard to ghosting.

I don't expect miracles though, and don't expect the Sony is going to compete with my Acer 5360. The lack of visible ghosting on this cheap $500 3d DLP is remarkable. You can try as hard as possible to see it, it's just not there.

Kraine or Ekki - is there any chance you guys have access to find out the pin-outs on the RJ45 connection for the 3D port? I am a big fan of my Monster Vision 3D RF glasses which uses the standard 3 pin VESA port. If I can find out the pinouts, it should be easy to make a custom cable so I can continue to use my RF glasses.

The Sony glasses look very green in the few posts I've seen (similar to my Nvidia and Xpand 103's) and much prefer the more neutral tint of the Monster Visions.

Xpand 103, MV3D, Nvidia 3D vision

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post #104 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kraine or Ekki - is there any chance you guys have access to find out the pin-outs on the RJ45 connection for the 3D port?..

.....also any info included in the manuals (or known) about the RS232 codes?
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post #105 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 10:32 AM
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The manual I saw on line at a UK site didn't have the codes.

Please Zombi, let's keep discussions and complaints about the JVCs to the JVC threads. This is a Sony thread. You know I love ya but repeating the same thing about the JVCs over and over in every thread you post in gets a little dull. This is not a comparison thread. Its a thread to post useful info re the new Sony and to ask questionds about it and get answers.

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post #106 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 11:28 AM
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mark - no problem. I do think folks will be interested to know how it stacks up against the jvc in 3D, but i'll save that for another thread.

Any chance you can pull some strings at Sony to find out the 3D port pin-outs?

UPS is strange company. you guys shipped it from NY on Friday, it's sitting here in PA about 15 minutes from me, and they aren't going to deliver it until Tuesday.
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post #107 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine
Yes this is correct :

Picture mode : cinéma 1
Cinema black pro : auto 1
Motionflow : low
Color temp : low 1
Gamma off
Color space : Normal

You have the best results in 2D without calibration with this settings.

I will only begin my 3D tests tonight.

Hi Mark I totally agree with your comments
Can you adjust the gamma manually, or can you only choose from the presets?
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post #108 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
...UPS is strange company. you guys shipped it from NY on Friday, it's sitting here in PA about 15 minutes from me, and they aren't going to deliver it until Tuesday.
Ouch! I would start making some phone calls. I'm sure somebody you know knows somebody who knows somebody who works at UPS.

Has anyone compared directly to the new Sharp? My local BB store isn't up & running yet with the Sony
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post #109 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
mark - no problem. I do think folks will be interested to know how it stacks up against the jvc in 3D, but i'll save that for another thread.

Any chance you can pull some strings at Sony to find out the 3D port pin-outs?

UPS is strange company. you guys shipped it from NY on Friday, it's sitting here in PA about 15 minutes from me, and they aren't going to deliver it until Tuesday.
Start another thread if you need to since there are some who are very curious how this Sony will compete with other units, especially as far as ghosting goes. I dont expect it to compete with the Acer of course, but I am very curious how it does vs your 50 as far as ghosting goes.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #110 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 01:24 PM
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I have requested the codes from our Sony rep but have not received a response to that particular request. What pins do you specifically want to know? The pins on the RS232 connector?

I don't know the answer to the gamma question, but if remember correctly from past Sonys, I believe they came with software you could load in your computer and then construct custom gamma curves.

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post #111 of 183 Old 08-06-2011, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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This is our ghosting results with the value "0" on 3D Deep Mode :

Ghosting Test picture 1080p :



Left eye :



Right eye :



As you can see, the L and R are clean without ghost image, they are still a shadow on the upper corner but it's really discrete and nothing to worry about during a movie. It's not the same if you change the 3D deep value + or -, that operation increase the crosstalking.
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post #112 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 12:07 AM
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Upper corner? Please describe what shadowing you see. I see shadowing in the upper center around the small and large Ds.

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post #113 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Upper corner? Please describe what shadowing you see. I see shadowing in the upper center around the small and large Ds.

You can see the upper R bleeding through on the L image (top right) and the same for the R image (top left).
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post #114 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 05:29 AM
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Thanks. I was looking at the first pattern instead of the next two. A big duh for me.

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post #115 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

This is our ghosting results with the value "0" on 3D Deep Mode :

As you can see, the L and R are clean without ghost image, they are still a shadow on the upper corner but it's really discrete and nothing to worry about during a movie. It's not the same if you change the 3D deep value + or -, that operation increase the crosstalking.

Did the 3D Glasses Brightness setting (pg 56 in manual) have any effect on crosstalk?
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post #116 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 06:53 AM
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hi Mark,

the reason i said this i when i watch Avatar 3D on the Pananosic 65inch tv. and output the source to 24 frames. i have no ghosting at all. even when picture moves from right to left or left to right. it works without ghosting.

however when i was looking for tvs. and i checked the sony. when picture was non moving. 3D looked excellent. but as soon as there was movement the 3D ghosting was unbearble. but that was tvs. and that is why i bought the panasonic tv.

this is projectors.

so hopefully soon someone is able to check out Avatar 3D on this sony projector. looking forward what peoples experiences are.

thanks
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post #117 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have requested the codes from our Sony rep but have not received a response to that particular request. What pins do you specifically want to know? The pins on the RS232 connector?

Mark - I was hoping to find out the pin out on the 3D ethernet port that Sony is using. My guess is that they aren't deviating from the standard 3 Pin signal and at 3 of those pins should correspond to the signals of regular IR or RF blasters like the Monster Vision 3D RF transmitter.



Pin Function
1 + 5V DC (secured with 750 mA)
2 Ground
3 Stereo Sync

I'd like to make an RJ45 -> 3 Pin DIN connector so I can continue to use the Monster Vision glasses.


Kraine - where can I get the 3D patterns? I have several 3D projectors and would like to use these as a reference for comparison. thanks!
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post #118 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 07:49 AM
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Those look like Tridef pc driver test patterns.

Jason these test patterns are pretty awesome and the only tech that scored a perfect score with them was DLP.

Try them out. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291751

And please post the 3D shootout. If Mark doesn't like that you are posting about the JVC ins Sony threads, then just start a shootout thread.
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post #119 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Zombie10k I'm using the test patterns from Burosh :

http://www.burosch.de/
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post #120 of 183 Old 08-07-2011, 08:37 AM
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thank you guys for posting the links to the 3D test patterns.

When the Sony arrives, I'll start a different thread for some comparison info.
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