Panasonic PTAE7000/ AT5000 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 07:30 AM
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On Thursday it was a pending charge, but since then Projector People charged me the full $3499.00 for the projector. Could this mean that the projector will be shipping before September?

They noted that street price will be lower, so I assume I will be credited the difference.
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post #362 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 09:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmike1 View Post

On Thursday it was a pending charge, but since then Projector People charged me the full $3499.00 for the projector. Could this mean that the projector will be shipping before September?

They noted that street price will be lower, so I assume I will be credited the difference.

Is that what they are asking as a deposit? If they were to charge me the full amount, I would assume that the projector has shipped. Currently the projector is expected to be released 2 months, don't pay for something that hasn't officially been release yet.
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post #363 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by r1lee View Post

is the Oppo option a memory feature like the panny?

You use the zoom button on the remote r1lee . The sequence is 1:1 no zoom > 1.2.>1.3>1.5 [which stretch/compress] > 1/2 > back to 1:1 again . To be more accurate 2.35:1 films are vertically stretched 1.33 times for anamorphic lenses.

The other mode -full screen- crops the left/right sides a little while filling the frame with the 2.35 image while maintaining the correct aspect ratio. No memory feature per se afaik though.
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post #364 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 12:07 PM
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Well, they are a forum sponsor
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post #365 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 12:21 PM
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Yes they are and a VERY reputable dealer as well. I have purchased a projector from them and they went above AND beyond what I could of expected.

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post #366 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 12:34 PM
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Mise well buy from AVS, rather than give it over to some generic company with generic people we will never know or meet.

Despite all the negative comments on 3D in this thread, one thing we can be thankful for is 3d forcing these manufacturers to make brighter projectors, and that's a DARN good thing, especially when doing large screens.

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post #367 of 1396 Old 08-07-2011, 10:49 PM
 
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yes they are a sponsor, but then again it was AVS that invited its members to see a demo of the projector two months before its releases
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post #368 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 06:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmike1 View Post

On Thursday it was a pending charge, but since then Projector People charged me the full $3499.00 for the projector. Could this mean that the projector will be shipping before September?

They noted that street price will be lower, so I assume I will be credited the difference.

Many places do this, but I didn't think it was legal to charge charge full price for an item until it was shipped.
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post #369 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Many places do this, but I didn't think it was legal to charge charge full price for an item until it was shipped.

They might of just put a hold on the card, and not actually charged it.

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post #370 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post


They might of just put a hold on the card, and not actually charged it.

Just got this:
"When you order online, your credit card can only be charged for the full amount. There is no way to do a partial payment.
The projector is not due to ship until sometimes in Sept. If you want your card to be refunded except for a $500 deposit, just let me know, and I'm happy to help. Many thanks."
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post #371 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 10:16 AM
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I am curious what "480 Hz LCD panels" means - is it just the frequency of some background image processing, or the panels (and 3D glasses) really work at 480 Hz?
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post #372 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 10:59 AM
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Mike. Anyone can legally prepay for an item in full before delivery. That's the way big purchases often are. With regard to someone overseas purchasing from the US, often a buyer in fear of a currency fluctuation will want to pay considerably before delivery. As a general rule, one probably should not pay for things early without some sort of compensation and fully trusting the seller.

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post #373 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Unfortunately, if the seats are already fixed (like many of us who alrady built the dedicated home theatre), especially the crazy people like me who sits at 1x screen-width , the misconvergence can easily be seen (not 0.05, but I'm talking just-in-case scenario of receiving a 3LCD projector that happens to be .1 or .2 misconverged. (happen a lot with BenQ, for example)

How can you tell you have misaligned panels if you can't see the pixel structure on screen due to Smooth Screen. Does smooth screen help hide it? Can anyone direct me to images of a misaligned image vs a non-misaligned? I know that might be asking too much.
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post #374 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 12:56 PM
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AE7000 and HW30ES Shoot-out Coming

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post #375 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 12:58 PM
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Don't forget that SS is NOT the same as defocusing. Therefore misaligned panels can still be seen. My projector's blue panel is a smidgen off but I can't see it from 1:1 viewing distance so that's not a problem for me.

I'm currently out of town. If I get the chance later on this week I'll take a picture to show you the misaligned blue panel on my projector.

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post #376 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post

I am curious what "480 Hz LCD panels" means - is it just the frequency of some background image processing, or the panels (and 3D glasses) really work at 480 Hz?

That's the native refresh rate (so in 3D mode, each eye gets a 240 refresh rate).
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post #377 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

That's the native refresh rate (so in 3D mode, each eye gets a 240 refresh rate).

Sounds great... I hope upcoming projectorcentral review finds no unexpected faults.
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post #378 of 1396 Old 08-08-2011, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Can anyone direct me to images of a misaligned image vs a non-misaligned? I know that might be asking too much.

A few years back I couldn't find any close up pics of SS, so I took my own. This was of the earlier model PTAE3000, also a 1080p design, with reasonably good panel alignment (the red might be ever so slightly off, but not worth mentioning):

This is standing right up close to the screen just inches away, with my point and shoot camera (causing the shadow in the lower right) in macro focus mode, of a tiny, center portion of the SMPTE 133 test pattern. The thinner lines on top are one pixel wide, alternating with non-illuminated black pixel lines.

 

Notice the SS bloats each pixel such that you can't really make out any SDE (or dot structure grid) at all, they just look like solid, continuous white lines, yet when viewed at a normal distance, any picture image detail on screen that is one pixel wide, the minimum by definition, is fully resolved.


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post #379 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 05:14 AM
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Is this a true 120hz at 1080p like the 120hz monitors or is this just another 60hz with beefy CFI?

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post #380 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post

I am curious what "480 Hz LCD panels" means - is it just the frequency of some background image processing, or the panels (and 3D glasses) really work at 480 Hz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

That's the native refresh rate (so in 3D mode, each eye gets a 240 refresh rate).

Its actually more likely that each eye sees actual video at 120 Hz in 3D mode with the new Panasonic 480 Hz projector. This is similar to how the Sony 240 Hz VW90 and HW30 projectors only display the actual video in every other frame and thus only allow the 3D glasses to open for 1 out of every 4 intervals, thus providing an effective 60 Hz per eye. I would assume that Panasonic will need every other 1/480 sec. interval to update the LCD chips and these intervals as well as the 1/480 sec. when the image for the other eye is being displayed will be blanked out by the 3D glasses. This is necessary to keep 3D crosstalk (ghosting) down to acceptable levels.

I've talked about how this works with the Sony and JVC projectors in my past 3 Blogs over at Projector Reviews.

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post #381 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

A few years back I couldn't find any close up pics of SS, so I took my own. This was of the earlier model PTAE3000, also a 1080p design, with very good panel alignment (the red might be ever so slightly off, but not worth mentioning):



This is standing right up close to the screen just inches away, with my point and shoot camera (causing the shadow in the lower right) in macro mode, of the SMPTE 133 test pattern. The thinner lines on top are one pixel wide alternating with unilluminated black pixel lines. Notice the SS bloats each pixel such that you can't really make out any SDE or dot structure at all, they just look like solid lines, yet anything on screen that is one pixel wide, the minimum by definition, is fully resolved.


Wow, cool. I guess the slight red tinge is the slight misconvergence of the red panel? I don't see how that image could appear blury. The black and white edges are pretty well defined even at that distance. I'd love to see a photo, at that distance, and with that test image, of a non SS projection.
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post #382 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 06:31 AM
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I am trying to figure out the screen size I can go up to with the AE7000. I have space for a 150" (viewable) 2.35:1 BW Carada. And I get a 19fL calculation with a conservative 1.3 gain figure.

This is excellent if you view it in the top brightness mode, but what about a NORMAL mode? The AE4000 was said to drop from 1600 lumen to 950 lumen in Normal mode, and less still for the COLOR modes.

So...is it not still impossible to go to this screen size? Based on a similar 40% brightness drop between the brightest mode and NORMAL, I would drop to under 12fL in NORMAL mode and that's before the lamp starts dimming over time...

I still say ARGH. Not interested in 3d at all, just more brightness.

As a side note, wouldn't it be great if PC's calculator let you pick modes. It's really useless without that.
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post #383 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 01:58 PM
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Here's a great pic comparing an RS1, RS20, RS35, and Samsung A900B using a 1 pixel wide alternating white/black pattern:



As you can see, every single projector can resolve the test pattern (unless your optics are incredibly poor, just about any 1080p projector can resolve it) but they all do it with varying degrees of success and that's where the difference in PQ lies. Having viewed a Sim2 HT3000E next to a BenQ W20000 (both single chip DLP projectors), it's amazing what a difference image sharpness (as a result of imaging chip quality and optics) can make in the depth and level of detail that's visible. The BenQ W20000 throws a very nice picture, but next to the HT3000E looked it like a film was covering the picture and obscuring detail in the BenQ's image.

I actually asked Mark Peterson - who took the above screen shots for one of his articles on MTF - if he'd be willing to evaluate a 1080p Panny to see what effect smoothscreen has on image sharpness, MTF, and overall PQ. He agreed that it's an interesting tech, but I haven't seen an article from him since then and don't know if he has any plans to look into the issue further.

Just all food for thought with respect to smoothscreen and image sharpness.

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post #384 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 02:26 PM
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I took these when I got my AE4000 in 2009, if it helps. I love the smoothscreen feature. When I use my Epson business projector to watch movies on trips, I usually defocus it just enough to get rid of the screendoor effect.

Internal focus pattern:


Test pattern with single-pixel bars at far right:
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post #385 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 02:35 PM
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what are the pink dots in m. zillch's lines?

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post #386 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 03:11 PM
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^These Panny pjs are 3 chip (panel) LCDs. One red, green, and blue that are projected on top of each other (perfectly overlapped in an ideal world) to make white light. This is unlike a typical direct view LCD monitors, such as found on a laptop/notebook or LCD (hang on the wall) TV, where the three sub pixels (R, G, and B) are side by side.[see image at the bottom of this post]

Panny's unique feature, smooth screen (SS), takes each of these three layer composites and through a complex prism quadruples each one with a slight lateral and vertical shift of center, for each. One of the composite pixels (made of R, G, and B overlapped) is North East (NE) of center, one is SE, one is SW, and the last one is NW. This is done to eliminate the visible, black separation lines between pixels [which all other 3 panel LCD pjs have if viewed very closely] by "bloating" each white pixel. This eliminates SDE (screen door effect), where you can see the dark lines between pixels at close range, due to the imperfect "fill factor" of LCD panels.  [Which traditionally DLP and SXRD/LCoS are somewhat better at than garden variety 3 panel LCDs made by other brands.]

Here's the pink dot explanation> My original three layer composite pj has the red slightly misaligned to the NW, but this is not a big deal. If you were to look at a highly magnified view of a traditional LCD panel (computer screen) like the one you are looking at right now, you'd see that the R, G, and B sub-pixels aren't overlapped at all, yet we see this as 9 "white" pixels:

 

[Note, humans are most sensitive to red misalignment, so the blue and green of my image may actually be off a bit too, but we just don't notice it as easily since we are humans.]


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #387 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

^These Panny pjs are 3 chip LCD. One red, green, and blue that are projected on top of eachother to make white light .

Panny's unique feature, smooth screen (SS), takes each of these three layer composites and through a complex prism quadruples each one with a slight lateral and verticle shift of center for each. One is NorthEast (NE) of center, one is SE, one is SW, and the last one is NW. This is done to eliminate the visible separation between pixels which all other LCDs have if viewed very close.

My original three layer composite has the red slightly misalaigned to the NE. Humans are most sensitive to red misalaignment so the blue and green may actually be off too, but we just don't notice it as easily since we are humans.

I think this is the only technical explanation I've ever seen of how smoothscreen actually works - very interesting, thanks for sharing!

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post #388 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Unfortunately, if the seats are already fixed (like many of us who alrady built the dedicated home theatre), especially the crazy people like me who sits at 1x screen-width , the misconvergence can easily be seen (not 0.05, but I'm talking just-in-case scenario of receiving a 3LCD projector that happens to be .1 or .2 misconverged. (happen a lot with BenQ, for example)

I have to agree with Mark on this one, I sit 12ft away from a 12ft wide screen and I can't see a .5 miss convergence, I have a hard time resolving 1 pixel of mis convergence honestly. With that said, I do get some comfort with single chip DLP that I am now using knowing that I don't have any mis convergence issues. On the other hand however, I also have a woven AT screen and the overly sharp edges of each pixel on my DLP causes some interesting visual artifacts as they align with the weave that I think SS would resolve and produce a smoother over all picture from my seating distance. No it is not Moire I am seeing although I do have that issue when I zoom down to smaller screen sizes like anything less that 133". The artifacts as I call them are really just what appear to be texture when viewing large patches of very light colors like bright sky or snow scenes. I know it is not weave that I see because if I replace the projector light with another light source on the screen I can't see it, and I know it is not pixel structure by itself as I can't see that from my seat when I put a flat piece of paper against the screen. So, I believe it to be how the DLP pixel structure interacts with the weave that causes what I see.

I very well may pick one of these things up if it can produce a calibrated 1000 lumens or more as that is what I need for my 165" 16x9 screen.
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post #389 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 04:43 PM
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1 pixel misconvergence, to my eyes, is so very glaring. On the other hand, my eyes tend to pick up things like that. Including seeing (and I have witnesses to this) one stuck pixel on a 50" panel from 12' away. No, I'm not deliberately looking for it. I hate my eyes for it.

Going back to your calibrated 1000 lumens for your 165" screen, I honestly doubt that this projector can do it.

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post #390 of 1396 Old 08-09-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post

I am trying to figure out the screen size I can go up to with the AE7000. I have space for a 150" (viewable) 2.35:1 BW Carada. And I get a 19fL calculation with a conservative 1.3 gain figure.

This is excellent if you view it in the top brightness mode, but what about a NORMAL mode? The AE4000 was said to drop from 1600 lumen to 950 lumen in Normal mode, and less still for the COLOR modes.

So...is it not still impossible to go to this screen size? Based on a similar 40% brightness drop between the brightest mode and NORMAL, I would drop to under 12fL in NORMAL mode and that's before the lamp starts dimming over time...

I still say ARGH. Not interested in 3d at all, just more brightness.

As a side note, wouldn't it be great if PC's calculator let you pick modes. It's really useless without that.

According to URM's screen measurements, you might need to be more conservative. On axis was only 1.03. http://accucalhd.com/documents/accuc...een_report.pdf
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