Panasonic PTAE7000/ AT5000 - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 06:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rgathright's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Pearl River, La.
Posts: 4,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I will be glad when there are some actual owner reviews out for this PJ. I am on the fence between it and the Sony HW30 and I am tired of the arguing about which will be better.

NEW ORLEANS SAINTS - SUPER BOWL XLIV CHAMPIONS
rgathright is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 07:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
millerwill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 11,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
I don't believe gregr ever said any such thing and I doubt darinP did either. Your statement sounds like it came straight from the JVC marketing department. Most 'knowledgable" people understand that the contrast we see on the screen (intrascene) is the most important and depends on a combination of static on/off, ANSI, and dynamic CRs. Thats why the Lumis is considered the best IQ on the planet despite having only 6K:1 native on/off CR!
IIRC, DarinP had a multi-part 'white paper' several yrs ago on the overwhelming significance of o/f CR. Can't locate it, but I imagine you know what I'm talking about; may have been in 'The Secrets of HT' or something like that. And to perpetuate the 'cheaper is better' argument, I've seen many posts from 'knowledgeable' folks (at least more knowledgeable than me) that prefer JVC's to any SIM2 dlp's.
millerwill is online now  
post #633 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Brad Horstkotte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 5,116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Personally, the statistics on a projector get you in the ballpark as far as evaluating options, but it ultimately comes down to how you evaluate them with your eyes. I had the chance to preview the 7000 several weeks ago, and I thought it threw some very nice pictures (albeit in a controlled environment, and projecting a bit smaller than I would prefer - so I would want to see what it can do on a larger screen at some point).
Brad Horstkotte is offline  
post #634 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 09:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Never seen the Lumis, but I'm sure it has a lot of other strengths which bring it up to that level. If it has 6k:1 Native, than the black levels in darker scenes are probably not nearly as good as the JVC's, but black levels are not the only aspect of the image and there are many more things that determine the quality.

Garbage In/Garbage Out
The maximum intrascene contrast of a scene can only be as high as the amount of contrast in the scene itself from the film, unless the projector is actually exaggerating and altering the levels of the source (which if using things like Dynamic Gamma and IRIS's or otherwise BLOWN gamma curves, then it often is exaggerating it).

Brighter scenes with fewer dark objects are not as affected by the native contrast capability of the projector in comparison to darker scenes with a few bright objects because of the way light works.

That's why native contrast matters more (because it's the darker scenes where increased contrast can be noticed most). Most projectors have enough contrast to where the differences between them are more minimal in all but the darkest scenes.

Dynamic contrast matters some measured in certain methods, but not the way most people measure it.
Not saying other contrast doesn't matter at all or even in other scenes, but just that it doesn't really matter for measured values very much.

So as far as measured values from reviews, native contrast is the most important. ANSI contrast has little to almost no bearing on the intrascene contrast of darker scenes because the TRUE ANSI contrast you are getting on the screen is generally within a certain range on every projector anyhow. Having tested ANSI Contrast, it appears to potentially have some effect really only in brighter scenes and ONLY if the difference between two projectors ANSI is ENOUGH, but you need a BIG difference.

However, even after measuring, I still cannot equate it directly and guarantee that the higher ANSI Contrast of a projector will still equate to slightly higher intrascene contrast in bright scenes. Since every projector may produce varying contrast on different types of scenes that is why it is nearly impossible to say that the reason X or Y scene had better contrast was due to the ANSI contrast. However, with native contrast, we can say that darker scene most likely had better intrascene contrast because a projector had higher native.

So with native contrast, it can give a bigger HINT to how the intrascene contrast might come out in darker scenes (higher or lower). Even though it's not perfect either, out of the three contrast types, it is the only measured one that gives us much useful info.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #635 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 09:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

IIRC, DarinP had a multi-part 'white paper' several yrs ago on the overwhelming significance of o/f CR. Can't locate it, but I imagine you know what I'm talking about; may have been in 'The Secrets of HT' or something like that.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #636 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 09:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Xavier1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I don't know why contrast with an iris needs to be discounted. If the Iris is of proper design, and the software is designed properly for it, it is just as valuable as native contrast. If you can't see it pumping, and it is adjusting gamma on the fly, then a high calibrated contrast ratio will be evident in the picture. Our eyes have an Iris as well, just about as good of a design there is!

My understanding is that Panny 4K had a very high quality Iris, is this the general experience?
Xavier1 is offline  
post #637 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 09:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
The IRIS in our eye is more of a VERY slow dynamic IRIS and it actually could be improved
When you go into the bright sun from a dark cave, it really hurts our eyes for instance. Speak to God on that one however.

Yes, DI's help in many situations if people are not bothered by it, but we're not referring to how much the DI helps, we were referring to how much the dynamic contrast measurements matter. We are not saying DI's are useless, it's just the way people measure dynamic contrast that is useless. That said, DI's do have limitations, if they close too much then the peak white levels are reduced too much for all scenes except pitch black ones.

Dynamic isn't as important because it conflicts with intrascene and native. If you lower the overall light too much, then the stars in a dark scene cannot get bright enough. Dynamic gamma isn't a solution to this, it can only offset it a very small amount unless you are willing to blow the gamma curve (at least on every IRIS I have seen to date). I think the Panny has a decent IRIS. I personally like DI's but only when set in a very tame manner, I do not like them when they crush the white levels too much, but I can live with a little crushing.

Since ANSI cannot really be precisely determined or extrapolated as to the effect it has on the given intrascene contrast of a given scene in actual video content of any given projector, and with native contrast the resulting effect is often more visible in darker scenes, then that is the simple reason why.

ANSI contrast was likely a more important measurement in older projectors than current projectors, but it could still matter a little.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #638 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 10:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

... While the best DLP projectors[/font][/color]
have a slight advantage in sharpness and a higher m-ANSI
contrast ratio, the far superior full-field contrast ratio of the RS35 and
its subsequently higher useable gamma results in better image depth
in most scenes.

I'm sorry I could not find where gregr mentioned "NATIVE" contrast as opposed to full field contrast.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #639 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 10:23 AM
Member
 
gregoryborley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post


Good god people, the AE7000's "picture has more snap". But what if the Sony has more "crackle"? How do I know if I prefer "snap" to "crackle"? We haven't even brought "pop" to the table yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post

I found that really funny

I'm still laughing!!! I nominate this for quote of the day......what's that you say??? there is no quote of the day?!?!?!
gregoryborley is offline  
post #640 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

IIRC, DarinP had a multi-part 'white paper' several yrs ago on the overwhelming significance of o/f CR. Can't locate it, but I imagine you know what I'm talking about; may have been in 'The Secrets of HT' or something like that. And to perpetuate the 'cheaper is better' argument, I've seen many posts from 'knowledgeable' folks (at least more knowledgeable than me) that prefer JVC's to any SIM2 dlp's.

Again, nowhere in that paper does Darin state that "NATIVE" on/off is most important. Quite the contrary, he has posted many times that he wishes JVC would add a DI to it's projector.

Here is a post by gregr which explains why both on/off and ANSI CRs are important. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post13526453.

I am not saying native (static) CR is not important but by saying native CR is the most important you are suggesting that we go out and get the pj with the highest native CR and it will be the best. Current content is mastered at 10K:1 to 16K:1 on/off at a 2.5 gamma. As long as a display can deliver a similar environment on a per scene basis there is little benefit in exceeding that on/off range.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #641 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 10:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The IRIS in our eye is more of a VERY slow dynamic IRIS and it actually could be improved ...

Not true, within smaller CR ranges the eye's DI system can modulate on a per precept basis, it is also very fast going from dark to light for large ranges. It can be very slow going from light to dark, taking up to 30 minutes for full close.

I will agree that any DI contrast that exceeds a 4x static (native) multiplier is useless. The other side of the coin is that once you have more than 10K:1 static (native) and a good DI implementation, you are not likely to see any of the brightness compression you posted about.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #642 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 11:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,583
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

There's a lot of comments from people who haven't seen this projector in action - not many have. The elitism here is a little disconcerting and annoying. Reminds me of when CRT ruled the roust and those guys would come to this section of the forum and lord it over everyone here. Different day same crap.

If I were selling projectors on this forum I sure wouldn't alienate an entire segment of my potential customers by making pejorative comments about the people who buy these projectors, especially if the company I worked for sells them. I would expect to be shown the door!

It's funny you say this because I was just thinking the same thing. I'd go out of my way not to buy anything from that place.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #643 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Again, nowhere in that paper does Darin state that "NATIVE" on/off is most important. Quite the contrary, he has posted many times that he wishes JVC would add a DI to it's projector.

I am not saying native (static) CR is not important but by saying native CR is the most important you are suggesting that we go out and get the pj with the highest native CR and it will be the best.

He changed his mind later after he tested ANSI contrast effects on the visible differences of the image and determined in scenes he couldn't tell the difference by EYE the effects that ANSI contrast had on intrascene contrast between the JVC and a DLP. It is in the JVC thread as well as the ANSI testing he did. You can ask him yourself with a PM. ANSI contrast is more likely to affect really bright scenes with mixed brightness and darkness, but it's nearly impossible, although not completely impossible, to equate these effects to our own eyes for many reasons.

You guys are still misunderstanding what I am saying about the DI. Yes, the DI helps, I don't mind a DI at all. It has limitations though. Again, for one final explanation, we are not debating if a DI helps or dynamic contrast can help either, what we are saying is that the way it is MEASURED is worthless.

I am also saying that the projector with the highest native contrast will do dark scenes the best. That is easily known to all of us that have seen all these projectors, since you can literally just about put them in a row based on native contrast levels as far as how dark the blacks go. The DI can offset this, but it will create a bit muddier looking blacks with less intrascene contrast (given all things being equal).

My own tests showed something a little less extreme than Darin's, so in my own tests they seemed to show that ANSI Contrasts matters a tiny bit, but not enough to be able to place the importance of ANSI contrast in very discernible fashion. What I mean is I am sure it matters some, but you can't put a value on it very well, every projector is different in the way it acheives intrascene contrast as an extrapolated result from the measured ANSI and Native at different white level mixtures that it is capable of.

I am not saying ANSI contrast doesn't matter, what I am saying is that it's not possible to know how much ANSI contrast a projector has affects a scene for the actual intrascene contrast, just like its not possible to know how much native contrast might affect a scene exactly. The difference is with native contrast, we can visibly see that most (if not all) projectors with higher native contrast do darker blacks. With ANSI contrast, there is no simple thing we can equate visibly with our eyes, although subjectively I think it increases bright scene contrast when you have projectors with higher ANSI.

Each projector is different, you'd have to measure 50+ different tests to try to determine it and average it all out.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #644 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 11:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

...I am saying that the projector with the highest native contrast will do dark scenes the best. That is easily known to all of us that have seen all these projectors, since you can literally just about put them in a row based on native contrast levels as far as how dark the blacks go...

I could not disagree more. I am not sure which projectors you compared but at a post production company I am affiliated with we compared the SIM2 LUMIS, Sony VW90, JVC RS60, Sony HW20, and JVC RS40 properly calibrated and level matched. The SIM2 LUMIS at ~6.5K:1 had the lowest native contrast and had the best dark scene contrast on almost every single scene we looked at with the exception of FFTB. IIRC the JVC RS60 was ~70K:1 (closed), RS40 35K:1 (closed), Sony VW90 20K to 34K:1 (open to closed), and Sony HW20 8K to 12K:1 (open to closed).

If the Panny 7000 comes in with a native CR of ~8K:1 it will be a winner. The major problem with the Panny 4000 was that the native CR was way too low at < 3K:1 IIRC.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #645 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 12:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

The SIM2 LUMIS at ~6.5K:1 had the lowest native contrast and had the best dark scene contrast on almost every single scene we looked at with the exception of FFTB.

OK, this is the wrong thread for this discussion. I don't know why you measured the Lumis having lower native contrast, yet still being able to produce far darker blacks. Perhaps it is the partial result of such a higher-end projector being a little different than the others when it comes to how measured contrast equates to intrascene contrast in real world viewing.

However, your measurement is still in contradiction to what nearly everyone else has discovered about how NATIVE contrast affects the black level floor. Perhaps you are talking about the LUMIS ability to do darkish scenes that aren't fully darkened, but then that requires a specific reference to know what the mixture of bright and dark scenes equate to which we don't have that reference. Plus I am speaking in how projectors that compete against the Panny in price are generally suceptible to contrast measurements, not about some flagship projector which I know very little about.

It is not like I'm coming out of left field with this stuff, it's fairly common if you read other peoples measurements on various projectors as to how it affected the black level floor.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #646 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Not true, within smaller CR ranges the eye's DI system can modulate on a per precept basis, it is also very fast going from dark to light for large ranges.

I haven't really studied the human eye so much, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

What I meant is the perceivable way that our eyes respond to light I guess then. If I walk outside after being in a dark cave, it takes quite a long time for my eyes to adjust, same with going from light back to dark. Now this might not be the IRIS in our eyes that caused this, but the end result was still that it works "as if our eyes had a slow dynamic IRIS", in the sense that the contrast my eyes can see was really bad until my eyes adjusted, hence everything looked washed out (either too bright or too dim).


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #647 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Lawguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,705
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I don't believe gregr ever said any such thing and I doubt darinP did either. Your statement sounds like it came straight from the JVC marketing department. Most 'knowledgable" people understand that the contrast we see on the screen (intrascene) is the most important and depends on a combination of static on/off, ANSI, and dynamic CRs. Thats why the Lumis is considered the best IQ on the planet despite having only 6K:1 native on/off CR!

Your analysis is incomplete, IMO.

You are right that intrascene contrast is very important to image quality. You are right that the intrascene contrast that you achieve is the result of a combination of factors including static on/off, ANSI, and dynamic CRs.

Where I differ is that a CR that is achieved dynamically will come at some cost and that cost may be acceptable or unacceptable depending on the image that is projected.

Also, I think that there is a big difference in using a DI on a projector that is natively 50k:1 and using a DI on a projector that is natively 6k:1. The projector that has the higher on/off and a DI will likely have better IQ in many scenes than the projector that is 6k:1 and a DI. Of course, this depends on the scene.

Ideally we want the most of every kind of contrast. The source material should be the limitation not the display.

Affable Nitwit
Lawguy is offline  
post #648 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 12:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

…You are right that intrascene contrast is very important to image quality. You are right that the intrascene contrast that you achieve is the result of a combination of factors including static on/off, ANSI, and dynamic CRs

Where I differ is that a CR that is achieved dynamically will come at some cost and that cost may be acceptable or unacceptable depending on the image that is projected…

I agree 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

…Also, I think that there is a big difference in using a DI on a projector that is natively 50k:1 and using a DI on a projector that is natively 6k:1. The projector that has the higher on/off and a DI will likely have better IQ in many scenes than the projector that is 6k:1 and a DI. Of course, this depends on the scene.

I also agree 100%. In the real world if we add in two additional factors; 1) the source is mastered on displays that are for the most part ~12K:1 and 2) scenes are setup, lit, and captured at ~300:1 per scene (~100:1 for video), in practice < 10K:1 static with a sophisticated DI system is more likely the point where it becomes very difficult to tell the difference on most (>99%) scenes.

The reality is that source limitations is the reason that native CR is not the most important factor for contrast performance.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #649 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 01:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

OK, this is the wrong thread for this discussion. I don't know why you measured the Lumis having lower native contrast, yet still being able to produce far darker blacks. Perhaps it is the partial result of such a higher-end projector being a little different than the others when it comes to how measured contrast equates to intrascene contrast in real world viewing....

Very simple, the LUMIS sample we have measures 6.5K:1 native (static) CR, 28K:1 dynamic CR, and 1050:1 ANSI CR. The RS60 sample measured 70K:1 native (static iris closed) and 300:1 ANSI CR. The LUMIS holds black in mixed scenes much better than the RS60. While the RS60 technically would show a > 2x better contrast between the lowest non-black object and black, the source does not contain material that would highlight that difference.

Now if in the future we start to shoot scenes at say 2K:1 and master at say 100K:1 or higher then the case will certainly change.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #650 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 01:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

The reality is that source limitations is the reason that native CR is not the most important factor for contrast performance.

Well, since there is no standardized way of measuring dynamic contrast, then NATIVE is the ONLY number we can use when reading reviews anyhow, unless you want to try to go by ANSI contrast, which is not a very good determining factor for how well a projector does in darker scenes at all.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #651 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 01:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Chuck Anstey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newnan, Georgia
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
You guys ought to do some searches on simultaneous contrast of the human eye. Fascinating stuff. The short of it is that if you have a scene with a mix of dark and light, if the scene is mostly bright you will "perceive" the image as having higher contrast when in reality you actually have lower perceptible contrast, as in two dark gray bars shaded slightly differently next to each other will not be distinguishable as two different shades of gray. Maybe that's why some people love High Power screens. On the other hand if the scene is mostly dark the you will perceive the image as having lower contrast but you will be able to actually see a higher range of contrast so those two gray bars are now distinguishable from each other.

From that it is clear that higher native On/Off contrast is more important but only for overall darker scenes and that high ANSI contrast isn't nearly as important because it only comes into play during overall brighter scenes where human eye simultaneous contrast detection is reduced to the order of 400:1.
Chuck Anstey is offline  
post #652 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Well, since there is no standardized way of measuring dynamic contrast, then NATIVE is the ONLY number we can use when reading reviews anyhow, unless you want to try to go by ANSI contrast, which is not a very good determining factor for how well a projector does in darker scenes at all.

There is a standardized way of measuring DI contrast, it is the same as measuring native (static) contrast and the respected reviewers like Cine4Home, Kraine, and gregr do it all the time. You appear to be confused about the definition of native and DI contrast.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #653 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 01:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

The LUMIS holds black in mixed scenes much better than the RS60.

Why are we speaking of a LUMIS, we are talking about projectors that compare to the Panny and sub $5000 projectors in general. Taking such a high-end projector obviously throws a wrench into it. We are talking about how the measured and published numbers measure between these level of projectors.

When we talk about black levels, we are generally speaking of scenes with not too many bright whites, other than maybe some star fields and what not, but these generally favor the JVC.

If you are talking about REALLY mixed scenes that can be both bright and dark on a flagship projector, then that is another argument entirely.

Just because one projector does better in mixed scenes is not a guarantee that it is because of a projector's strength in ANSI contrast, although it can be an inclination of such. However, at the competing level against the Panny projector, you won't find a variable enough ANSI contrast difference on very many of these LCD or LCOS units to make much difference between them.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #654 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 01:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

There is a standardized way of measuring DI contrast, it is the same as measuring native (static) contrast and the respected reviewers like Cine4Home, Kraine, and gregr do it all the time. You appear to be confused about the definition of native and DI contrast.

I am not confused, but people measure dynamic contrast by waiting too long so that it becomes an inconsequential measurement. Just because 3 people did it a certain way does not make it a standard. A standard means a generally acceptable practice that is followed and performed to the same method by the majority, but even if everyone did it exactly the same way, it still doesn't mean that much since people take the measurement over such a long time waiting for the black level to get unrealistically darker.

Whenever I get into a contrast argument with someone, it always has to turn nasty with someone insulting the other's knowledge, too bad man.

I know plenty about contrast, I have done many tests on it. I don't know everything, but I am certainly not confused.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #655 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
How about this. Everyone just give it up on throwing out all of these meaningless numbers and get off their high horses. Put the projectors in one room side by side and just flat out say " I like the picture of that one better", Because stats are realling meaning less, it is the enjoyment that you get from the picture that counts. If you are that hung up on numbers then you are not enjoying it anymore.

It like saying a Lambo will go 210mph but a Ferrari will only go 205, Ferrari must be inferior so who would want them. Also many a time does a "superior" product on paper get beat out by one with lower scores.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #656 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 02:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

How about this. Everyone just give it up on throwing out all of these meaningless numbers and get off their high horses.

And people wonder why the reviewers stopped posting their contrast numbers, lol.

Most of us actually do hope the Panny can meet or exceed everyone's expectations and be a game changer, but the jury is still out for the price we expect it to be released at.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #657 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 02:44 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked: 293
The price Panasonic will charge it dealers is something that will make them a profit. And given the fall of the dollar, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see it be even more expensive than we are expecting. Its not what one wants to pay, its what they need to charge. And frankly, for many Panasonic fans, it really won't make that much difference. But the days of a quality Panasonic for $2K are probably gone for ever, But don't blame Panasonic for setting a price that will make them a profit. The price of various materials has recently had substantial increases. The fall of the dollar will be inflationary considering how much foreign goods we import. Don't read this as a political statement. Just an explanation as to why why certain items are likely to cost more than what we paid in the past for the same level of quality.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is offline  
post #658 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 02:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Luckily all my customers pay with barrels of oil and gold pesos.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #659 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 05:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Why are we speaking of a LUMIS, we are talking about projectors that compare to the Panny and sub $5000 projectors in general...

We are talking about the LUMIS because you said this
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Never seen the Lumis, but I'm sure it has a lot of other strengths which bring it up to that level. If it has 6k:1 Native, than the black levels in darker scenes are probably not nearly as good as the JVC's...

Yes i am talking about dark scenes. We viewed scenes from Aliens vs Predators, Dark City, and Underworld.

This relates to the Panny 7000 because the D9 panels are likely to be < 10K:1 in on/off CR and it is important that people not eliminate it from their list just based on "native" CR marketing propaganda. Dark scene intrascene contrast is always a combination of native and DI contrast, not just native.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #660 of 1396 Old 08-19-2011, 06:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 139
I never said for anyone to eliminate it off their list. If you read my link in my test signature of some projectors I've tested, you'll see I favor DLP which has a much lower Native CR than MANY LCD projectors.

Again, no issue with dynamic contrast, only take issue with the way it is measured by people.

The best indicator of what Intrascene contrast will be in a single frame is affected more by a projector's native contrast and ANSI combined, but this weights much more heavily to the NATIVE CONTRAST side in dark scenes. Saying dynamic contrast affects intrascene contrast just confuses it.

Since dynamic contrast is a measurement over time and intrascene contrast is contrast of the scene itself, then you can't really apply the two together at all. I mean I suppose you could, but I don't see much use in doing so.

Yes, you could say the IRIS closed down increases intrascene contrast and that was the ending result of dynamic contrast, but that is just confusing the matter. If you look at intrascene contrast calculators, they don't take into account dynamic contrast. The problem is it can also work against you depending on the scene, you can also lose intrascene contrast from the ending result of dynamic contrast.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off