Panasonic PTAE7000/ AT5000 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 05:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Tom's HW30 measurements vs. Cine4home's Epson 8700. I'm not knocking the comparison, just prefer to keep it to 1 source if possible so it's as objective as possible.

There are several items I am looking forward to reading about the panasonic from Cine4home, primarily panel uniformity, something that bothers me on just about every LCD i've owned or have demo'd. Sony HW30 & JVC RS50 are rock solid in this regard.

In addition, i'd like to know how the iris performs. Coming from a JVC, this is a big deal for me. The HW30 iris is outstanding and bring the 2D IQ right on the edge of the much more expensive JVC RS50. The HW30 is the first DI i've seen that isn't noticeable to me.

These are subjective items that may not be important to some, but I know they will be detailed soon enough. The Sony is my 5th 3D projector and I might pick up either the Panasonic or Mitsubishi HC7800 depending on the feedback from our 'Euro' friends.

Sony has had one of the best iris systems for a long time. You just don't notice the iris when using it at a reasonable setting.
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post #722 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I would guess that 4000:1 to 7000:1 native is about the real calibrated contrast of the Sony in the modes most people will be using, so not that much different than the 8700ub, maybe a little better but not much. From the way I read the article, 10,000:1 native sounds like if it were calibrated for maximum contrast.

I think you're right. The contrast pre/post calibration is directly related to the brightness. I.e. the black level will stay the same but the white level will drop when you reign in the colors. If you loose 30% brightness you also loose 30% contrast after calibration.

This sounds reasonable with regards to the Sony. From 1100 lumens uncalibrated with 10k contrast to 850 lumens and 7.5K post calibration - in both cases about a 25% drop.
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post #723 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

...This sounds reasonable with regards to the Sony. From 1100 lumens uncalibrated with 10k contrast to 850 lumens and 7.5K post calibration - in both cases about a 25% drop.

Are we reading the same review?

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek..._Beta_Test.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoogleTranslated View Post

… HW30 reached its highest brightness of course, in its native color temperature, which is activated by means of memory "User 5". We measured here 1270Lumen, which corresponds almost exactly to the factory specification…

...Calibrate the projector to correct colors (see above), but as it remains nevertheless still proud 900Lumen what makes the HW30 at a higher than average bright projector…

These maximum brightness values are achieved either with adaptive iris or iris fully open. This is a calibrated contrast ratio of around 28,000:1 means adaptively, and 4500:1 native. Alternatively, it is possible to close the iris manually, which allows an increase of up to 7500:1 native contrast, but also a loss of light to 600Lumen (Iris to half) or 350Lumen (iris) causes (Lamp mode, Hi). Maximum of the VPL-VW30 a native 10,000:1 contrast ratio reached.

This first analysis shows that the halved compared to the VW90 specified contrast (70,000:1 vs. 150,000:1) confirmed in practice, even in the native contrast, where a VW90 even reach up to 20,000:1.

To me this says:
900 Lumens/4,500:1 native iris open,
600 lumens/7,500:1 native iris half open,
350 lumens/10,000:1 native iris closed.

What am I missing?
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post #724 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Are we reading the same review?

Nah, those numbers were from the back of my head, but the conclusion still stands:

Lumens: 1270/900=71%
CR 10k/7.5k = 75%

That is well within the error of measurement.
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post #725 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Nah, those numbers were from the back of my head, but the conclusion still stands:

Lumens: 1270/900=71%
CR 10k/7.5k = 75%

That is well within the error of measurement.

what conclusion are you drawing from dividing uncalibrated iris open lumens by calibrated iris open lumens and claibrated iris closed CR by calibrated iris half closed CR?
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post #726 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

what conclusion are you drawing from dividing uncalibrated iris open lumens by calibrated iris open lumens and claibrated iris closed CR by calibrated iris half closed CR?

Maybe I read it too fast and wrong?

I interpreted it as:

Max lumens 1270, uncalibrated, open iris.
Max D65 lumens 900, open iris.

Max CR 10K, uncalibrated, fully closed iris
Max D65 CR 7.5K, calibrated, fully closed iris.

If the 7.5K is mid iris and the 10K is closed iris, then the uncalibrated max CR is missing and there is no conclusion
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post #727 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 11:13 AM
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studiox_swe

guys, can't we keep this thread Sony free? If you have concerns about HW30, keep it in the official hw30 thread. thanks




So it wasn't just me!
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post #728 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 11:15 AM
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yes please, Sony free on this thread. Slightly OT is okay but right now it's ridiculously turned into Sony thread.

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post #729 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 11:35 AM
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New to this, I have a 16:9 153 inch screen goo 1.3? Gain screen in a totally light controlled theatre room. I am interested in the ptae 7000 . Any feedback appreciated if it will be bright enough for 3d. Projector will be at full wide angle. As well, I need not have "perfect " calibration when in 3d mode.
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post #730 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 11:48 AM
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Sorry, should have mentioned that's 153 diagonal, reference white goo systems.
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post #731 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 11:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc b View Post

New to this, I have a 16:9 153 inch screen goo 1.3? Gain screen in a totally light controlled theatre room. I am interested in the ptae 7000 . Any feedback appreciated if it will be bright enough for 3d. Projector will be at full wide angle. As well, I need not have "perfect " calibration when in 3d mode.

Too large a screen for 3D with the Panny.
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post #732 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post


Too large a screen for 3D with the Panny.

I know this is a panny site , but think the Sony hw 30 could suffice?
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post #733 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 12:08 PM
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Yes

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post #734 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 12:10 PM
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Thanks greatly for the feedback. I'll post my thoughts after I give it a try!
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post #735 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 03:08 PM
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Ok guys, I'm really trying here. I am upgrading from an ae900u to the ae7000u. However, when I've asked questions to sales reps I get the impression that they are just trying to push a certain product rather than telling me the truth. I may be totally off base but i get that impression regularly. I would like to know, based on specs obviously, will this projector outperform the Mitsubishi HC9000? I am willing to spend up to approx $5500 on an upgrade. Am I looking at the right all around projector in my price range? I am just starting to get a grasp on contrast ratio, lumen output, ect. So please explain somewhat in numbie terms. Thanks in advance.
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post #736 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 03:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

yes please, Sony free on this thread. Slightly OT is okay but right now it's ridiculously turned into Sony thread.

Looking back it was the glowing Projector Central review which set all this cotton-candy posting.
The competition must really be afraid. The fact is the Sony TV division has not been profitable for eight years, so their fear is understandable. Panasonic has the upper hand in being able to set a low price.

It should be apparent that while these LCoS and LCD projectors are brighter, the 3D is still dim. The 240/480 higher refresh rates block the light while the slow pixels are switching. This greatly reduces ghosting. DLP technology has no such limitation.
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post #737 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 03:35 PM
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jsi07, kindly PM me with your room condition (light controlled or not), screen size, screen gain, viewing distance, I may be able to help you with great detail. (I'm doing this just so not to sway the topic way off, just in case)

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post #738 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsi07 View Post

Ok guys, I'm really trying here. I am upgrading from an ae900u to the ae7000u. However, when I've asked questions to sales reps I get the impression that they are just trying to push a certain product rather than telling me the truth. I may be totally off base but i get that impression regularly. I would like to know, based on specs obviously, will this projector outperform the Mitsubishi HC9000? I am willing to spend up to approx $5500 on an upgrade. Am I looking at the right all around projector in my price range? I am just starting to get a grasp on contrast ratio, lumen output, ect. So please explain somewhat in numbie terms. Thanks in advance.

A few years ago I upgraded from a AE700 to the AE1000 and the improvement was stunning. The AE900 is somewhat better then the 700, however quite similar. Even if you upgrade to the AE3000 or a AE4000 the improvement would be night and day. I'm sure you'll be floored with the AE7000.
(I'm still loving the AE1000, little contrast improvement and I'd keep it for another few more years)
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post #739 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudeross View Post


A few years ago I upgraded from a AE700 to the AE1000 and the improvement was stunning. The AE900 is somewhat better then the 700, however quite similar. Even if you upgrade to the AE3000 or a AE4000 the improvement would be night and day. I'm sure you'll be floored with the AE7000.
(I'm still loving the AE1000, little contrast improvement and I'd keep it for another few more years)

I had the ae3000 and the ae4000, wasn't much improvement. It was night and day from the panny ae4000 to my RS40. But it should be night and day from your ae1000 to ae7000
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post #740 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 07:25 PM
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from AE3000 to AE4000 is quite a noticable improvement in terms of brightness and black level. Not night and day, but very noticable nevertheless.

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post #741 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

from AE3000 to AE4000 is quite a noticable improvement in terms of brightness and black level. Not night and day, but very noticable nevertheless.

Maybe in a dedicated theater but not in a normal environment, like mines was. I really couldn't tell the difference. It cost me $500 after selling my 3000 for the 4000, but I wanted the newer version just because it was new. A lesson learned. I couldn't wait to sell if for a JVC
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post #742 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I had the ae3000 and the ae4000, wasn't much improvement. It was night and day from the panny ae4000 to my RS40. But it should be night and day from your ae1000 to ae7000

Not looking to be flamed, and I haven't followed this thread closely, but here goes. My JVC RS40 blows my Panasonic AE4000 to smithereens. In my mind, there's simply no comparison in terms of picture quality. The RS40 has issues with side by side 3D (any 120hz 3D ghosts), but for 2D and for 24p Blu-ray 3D, the RS40 is phenomenal. Anyone considering the 7000 shouldn't rule out the new JVCs. If you can wait, you owe it to yourself to read the reviews. I was pretty happy with the AE4000 until I got my RS40. 60 seconds after firing it up I was kicking myself for waiting so long to get a JVC.

Believe me, I know how easy it is to get worked into a lather about a new product, so I can understand the enthusiasm for the Panasonic. And it may end up being all that and a bag of chips. However, I wish I'd had a good demo of a JVC before I got the AE4000. 60 seconds of comparison is all I would have needed. Especially if this is going to be your projector for the next two or three years (or more), you need to consider the options. I've owned CRT, DLP, LCD and now D-ILA. Hands down, JVC's D-ILA wins in my book. And as much as I love 3D, I still watch a lot more 2D. If your next projector is going to be your ONLY projector, you really need to consider all the options.

Just my two cents.

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post #743 of 1396 Old 08-24-2011, 09:44 PM
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It's probably true that the 4000 is a lot better than the 3000 in the right environment, but I didn't have that environment until I got the RS40.
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post #744 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 09:22 AM
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This image from the video of the presentation of the projector would seem to imply that with 480hz panels, 3D shutters will be open for greater than 50% of the time (in total, and per-eye).



That should be a big factor in perceived brightness, correct? Going from 4ms to 6ms may seem small (a delta of only 2ms) but in percentage terms, it's a 50% increase.
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post #745 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 11:58 AM
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One reason I am considering this projector over others is to preserve my investment in 3D glasses from my TCP58VT25.
I saw it mentioned that those glasses should work with this projector, if not then I may consider a Passive projector to save money on glasses.
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post #746 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 12:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WizardOfZo View Post

One reason I am considering this projector over others is to preserve my investment in 3D glasses from my TCP58VT25.
I saw it mentioned that those glasses should work with this projector, if not then I may consider a Passive projector to save money on glasses.

Like the LG CF3D? or if you can name one that's decently inexpensive, please do so.
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post #747 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 12:11 PM
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I'd like to know too if there is a passive 3D projector that costs below $4k

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post #748 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xamphear View Post


That should be a big factor in perceived brightness, correct? Going from 4ms to 6ms may seem small (a delta of only 2ms) but in percentage terms, it's a 50% increase.

yes. The loss of perceived brightness is no longer (approx) 60% but only (approx) 35%

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post #749 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

yes. The loss of perceived brightness is no longer (approx) 60% but only (approx) 35%

If that's the case, would that mean that in 3D mode, the 7000 with 580 calibrated 2D lumens could be as bright or even brighter than a different projector with a calibrated 800 2D lumens?

I'm REALLY curious about the 480Hz panels. If they really DO operate at 480Hz natively, that should be a significant advantage specifically for 3D (yep, I'm a fan of 3D) in both reducing/eliminating crosstalk AND as shown in the pic above, increasing brightness through the glasses.

One thing that does puzzle me though, legacy glasses will operate fine at double the refresh rate? Thus far, most 3D displays were 120Hz with the newer ones being 240Hz. Can these legacy (read 'currently available') shutter glasses already have the ability to open and shut at these speeds already? Granted, it doesn't mean that the shutter glasses need to flicker at 480Hz, but according to that pic, legacy glasses had a 4ms blackout period while switching from one eye to another whilst the 480Hz tech is supposed to do it in literally half the time. Wouldn't that be dependent on the on/off twist time of the LCDs involved?


Max
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post #750 of 1396 Old 08-25-2011, 12:32 PM
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In terms of Panasonic legacy 3D glasses, AFAIK, according to a Japanese tech I talked to during the past CEDIA, the glasses have always been 240 Hz / eye ready. However, I agree with you, I worry more about the twist time rather than the shutter speed.

Regarding your first question, regardless of projector, you should always calibrate 2D and 3D separately anyway and do the 3D brightness reading through the flickering glasses.

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