Panasonic PTAE7000/ AT5000 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 08:09 PM
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Thanks for the clarification!

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post #182 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I don't think anybody claimed that SS is as sharp as non-SS...

Cine4home actually believes it!
..."Our in-depth special on the test shows that the Smooth Screen technology fulfilled by the complex system of various birefringent lenses from manufacturers advertised their task to increase the fill rate of a 3LCD projector significantly without causing loss in sharpness."
http://translate.google.com.ar/trans...reenSmooth.htm
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post #183 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

[emphasis mine]

I myself love smoothscreen (I'm on my 4th projector with it, in fact), but I'm curious to hear from you, a person who has lived with it and without it in their home, as to why you now feel you want to go back to it. Your thoughts, please.

(Also state if any of your viewng seats are close enough such that an eagle eyed viewer might be able to make out the pixels. If you have seating that close then it's obvious to me why you'd want SS, however many people scoff at the concept of sitting that close. I, for one, love how both me and my guests can walk right up to the screen and still not see fill factor/ screen door effect, but I would assume from my actual seating positions I wouldn't really notice. Unfortunatly I'm not sure though and haven't found a calculator on line which will determine this for me.
---

"The visual arc between pixels due to fill factor in a .7 inch D7 Epson LCD panel using alternating black and white dots across the horizon at a brightness level of 50 IRE as viewed by a person with 20/20 vision with a screen width of Y of a static test image of ISO pattern XYZ on a sunday with a room temperature of 70 degrees....." Ha-ha, Just joking around.

Despite the sometimes obscene protestations from folks on the epson boards, while there are many things to recommend an 8100/8350/8700 - particularly in a non-light controlled setting - SDE (pixel structure, fill factor, whatever you want to call it) is still alive and well in HD. To be fair, I'm throwing a 148" screen at 18ft with an avg 13 foot viewing difference, but as you say - I loved being able to walk right up to the screen and not be able to see any picture structure.

I have 20/20 corrected vision, by no means eagle eyes, but the grid is there, and i can see it if I try at 13ft. To clarify the "if I try" (and avoid the, "then don't try" comments) I mean that if I'm focusing on a fine detail on the screen the "through a window" effect that I believe is central to the pj viewing experience goes away and suddenly I can see the SDE. In my opinion, SS is a vital addition to the LCD experience, but not so much that I was willing to compromise on brightness (or pay 1k more) at the time of my last purchase.

Of course, I'm one of these folks who can't stand to cover a nice outside view with window screens, so maybe I'm just crazy.
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post #184 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 10:37 PM
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Can the smoothscreen crap be turned off?

If it can then it's win win, and if not then people gotta decide if they wan't a blurry picture or get the Sony if they wan't a sharper picture.

BTW, I've had smoothscreen on all my projectors. I just smear some vasiline on the lens and then defocus it and violla!! No screendoor from even with my nose up to the screen.
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post #185 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 10:54 PM
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Have you auditioned the projector that this thread is about? If not, then the general bashing doesn't belong here.
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post #186 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Can the smoothscreen crap be turned off?

No. If you don't like the *ahem* "blurry pictures"" it creates, simply buy any other brand but Panasonic. It is proprietary to them.

[At one point, perhaps ten years ago or more, there was an aftermarket company that sold a similar version of it as an add on filter. It, however, had to be a compromise design since it was designed to work generically with any old lens/panel, whereas the Panny engineers design SS technology specifically to the lens and resolution panel they know it will be working with.]

I think you were joking around about the vaseline, and all, but people really do seriously discuss if slightly defocussing a non-SS LCD projector is a "poor man's SS". I can tell you I've done just that, on clients' projectors, and can say that it is usually a terrible failure. No matter how carefully one tries to set it just right, defocussing enough such that the pixels overlap and the terrible fill factor of LCD is obscured, like with real SS*, and you have a blurry defocused main image! The beauty of real SS is it obliterates the poor fill factor yet doesn't make the image look defocused at all. It also preserves the finest individual pixel details perfectly, but if cartoon like hard edges on everything and artificial EE is your thing, then you may not like the smoothness or "film like" quality of SS.

*Real SS doesn't work by defocusing each pixel anyways, despite what some some, even Panny lit, may say. What it does is pass each pixel's light through a prism which creates a multiple image. Instead of "double vision" it makes each pixel "quadruple vision", I believe, moving each of the four images slightly up, down, left, and right of the center to help overlap and obscure the poor fill factor gaps between pixels. Effectively the pixels get "fat" or bloated. Brilliant.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #187 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 11:20 PM
 
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was wondering how long it would take this thread to go into smoothscreen debate/bashing mode..
surprised it took this long..
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post #188 of 1396 Old 08-01-2011, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

*Real SS doesn't work by defocusing each pixel anyways, despite what some some, even Panny lit, may say. What it does is pass each pixel's light through a prism which creates a multiple image. Instead of "double vision" it makes each pixel "quadruple vision", I believe, moving each of the four images slightly up, down, left, and right of the center to help overlap and obscure the poor fill factor gaps between pixels. Effectively the pixels get "fat" or bloated. Brilliant.

I don't recall exactly how they worded it at the demo - but the rep mentioned something about how they've revised the algorithm such that it works selectively on areas where needed vs. across the whole image. Or something like that. Does that ring a bell at all Daniel?
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post #189 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 12:43 AM
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I saw the technical article breaking down smoothscreen and saw how it did not technically cause any loss of pixel definition, but it still may cause some perceivable softness to text because of the mini-blooming to the edges of the pixels to reduce the visible pixel fill, and therefore some people might consider it at times to be PERCEIVABLY less sharp when reading text. Optical illusions are half the battle with this stuff anyhow. Sharpness is part illusion and part reality. Just because the FULL pixel definition is still there doesn't mean we see it the same way when something else is added.

As far as for movies, it may make some stuff look better especially if you are senstiive to SDE. I think it had its day for 720p projectors, but with 1080p I'm not so sure.

That said, we shouldn't be pre-judging the projector, let's just wait and see how sharp it is, who knows it might be one of the sharper ones of the year.


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post #190 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 05:17 AM
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Sorry you have no clue of what your "trying" to talk about! go away as I can test to my pan 4000 is super sharp and clear ill lay $$ on it! Im a professional photographer and I would know what is sharp and what is not. troll bash elsewhere!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Ok so what you SS fans are saying is, that smooth screen has no affect on perceived sharpness? I was looking over these photos comparing an AE3000 to a IN83 DLP. Check out the roof tiles, the blades of grass and the flowers lower right of the porch. Maybe this is why some people aren't fans of this technology? Apparently some of the elitist have seen and know better when they see it? Some could argue the camera was bumped. Well then pretty much every 3 chip LCD or LCOS photo was bumped as well on this site?

Do I really have to say which photo is the Panny and which is the IN83?




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post #191 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by widerscreen View Post

Sorry you have no clue of what your "trying" to talk about! go away as I can test to my pan 4000 is super sharp and clear ill lay $$ on it! Im a professional photographer and I would know what is sharp and what is not. troll bash elsewhere!

Let's not get too angry, that usually takes the thread down the wrong track.

I agree people shouldn't be too quick to bash, but some of us value different things in the image and are overly quick to point it out. I respect Joesyah, but I really dislike screenshots being used to demonstrate anything unless they are used VERY VERY carefully. Sharpness is merely one attribute of an image, it's not the end-game attribute for movies anyhow. If sharpness were really everything, then even LCOS projectors couldn't compete against DLP for movies, but they do. Even the JVC RS10 or RS20 aren't really very sharp when you try to use them for HTPC. Sharpness CANNOT be judged properly by pictures of video even in a LIVE viewing, much less a screenshot. To determine sharpness, it would have to be closeups of straight line cross patterns or text in comparison to an LCD monitor's almost perfectly sharp text, or anything other than video shots.

We should also keep in mind that sharpness is affected by convergence luck more than smooth screen technology, so we can't assume anyone's projector is less sharp or more sharp than any other 3 chipper. Even if you saw (1) Panny 7000, it's not the end-game if you judged its sharpness, who knows if it was average convergence or below average. I have seen the same model of Epsons be all over the place when it comes to sharpness due to convergence luck.

However, when it comes to HTPC text like reading small text, many of us are just bothered by every LCD (not just the Panny), and those of us that are bothered often just go to DLP instead because we are not satisfied with any NON-DLP's sharpness levels. Most of the reviewers do not properly execute sharpness tests anyhow, they really should be done based on a single reference point, such as by comparing each projector to a reference LCD monitor displaying text.

The Panny 4000 when properly converged can be fairly sharp, at least slightly above average, but LCD's aren't all that sharp when compared to projectors like the Benq w6000 for instance. Again, this isn't so important for movies or video as it is for other stuff.

I for one am very curious as to how the new Panny 7000 stacks up this year in all categories.

If you think about it, there just really aren't very many SUPER sharp projectors for displaying small text unless you go DLP (there is the JVC RS35, some RS40's depending on convergence luck, RS50/60, Mits hc9000d LCOS, and some Epson LCd's if luckily converged), but that really doesn't leave us very many NON-DLP choices for those of us that crave that sharper image for HTPC usage.


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post #192 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 06:32 AM
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This might be interesting for those interested in the PT-AE7000/AT5000

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post #193 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 07:34 AM
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Thanks for posting that video.
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post #194 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 07:39 AM
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I imagine there will be a lower-cost 2D version of the AE7000 this fall. Just my opinion, but I'm guessing the only reason we're seeing a preview of the 7000 now is because it's 3D and more expensive, so it won't directly compete with the AE4000 or its presumed successor.

Panasonic won't announce anything better/cheaper than the AE4000 until it's ready to ship. Otherwise people would wait for the new model, and the stock of AE4000s will go unsold.

The AE7000 is in a different class, so by previewing in July, the only sales they risk cannibalizing is that of competitors.

Now, if I may ask once more, has anyone seen the AE7000 loading lens memory, and if so, does it still have that annoying flashing PROCESSING message that cannot be defeated?
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post #195 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 08:02 AM
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Yep screen shots pretty worthless, way to many variables.

Was it focused properly
was it let warm up long enough
Different pause point in movie

All can make a huge difference when looking at such fine detail. To me it looks either out of focus or that frame they stop at a slight pan or something going on, it can be hard to find a frame that will pause nice and clear. And with the digital age there really is no excuse for not stopping on exactly the same frame, that alone makes me a little suspect to the screen shots shown.
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post #196 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 08:11 AM
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Thanks for posting it! I put my $$ on this in a flash!
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post #197 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 08:15 AM
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I wonder if the mounting will be the same as the 4000? As far as the same pattern for the screws as this probably a stupid question as I would think they would keep it universal right?
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post #198 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by widerscreen View Post

I wonder if the mounting will be the same as the 4000? As far as the same pattern for the screws as this probably a stupid question as I would think they would keep it universal right?

Yea right why would they do that. Either way with the offset lense it is going to cause issues for people like me who have the pole coming down through the soffit and can't move it.
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post #199 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 08:32 AM
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Does this PJ not have enough horizontal shift to correct the 3" offset of the lens?

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post #200 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

Does this PJ not have enough horizontal shift to correct the 3" offset of the lens?

oh no! Now we will get into a debate about how much THAT will affect the picture! Personally I can't wait until this puppy ships! I , like a few others, went from a JVS rs2 (well, the pioneer clone) to a 4000 and could not be happier! Been real lucky and never had a dust blob problem either!
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post #201 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:01 AM
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nice video. Really nice to hear about the low crosstalk. What would have been really nice would have been a two bulb projector where the second bulb is only used for 3D content for double the lumens!!

I was joking about the vasiline but i actually heard that about the ae4000 when compared to the Epson 6500.

Why can't the smoothscreen be turned off?? I had the Epson and was never bothered by SDE, and are you guys seriously saying that you can see SDE on LCOS? Thats hard to believe.
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post #202 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:13 AM
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Just a question. Is the smooth screen an electronic function or is it built into the lens optics? I suppose I could research this but someone who knows could jump in and save me the time. Thanks

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post #203 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

Yep screen shots pretty worthless, way to many variables.

Was it focused properly
was it let warm up long enough
Different pause point in movie

AND...
An LCD's sharpness is also affected by mounting position and the usage of lens shift. The only way to properly judge the sharpness is to display text and some line patterns at the same time on the screen when the projector is mounted at closest throw and using absolutely ZERO lens shift and ZERO keystone. I've seen lens shift add up to 2 pixels of displacement error. Doesn't mean the Panny's lens shift will cause this, but many projectors are like that.

One thing nice about this projector will hopefully be the best mode brightness. The Panny 4000 slightly lacked here just enough so that people using bigger screens were mostly using a non-best mode. Hopefully we will see 600-800 lumens for a best mode, but we'll see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Just a question. Is the smooth screen an electronic function or is it built into the lens optics? I suppose I could research this but someone who knows could jump in and save me the time. Thanks

From the description, it sounds like it is built straight into the optics. It apperas that the only way Panasonic could give the option to disable it is by literally having some type of mechanical part in the optics which could slide out of position and be replaced by a different one that doesn't cause smooth screen. Obviously that would over-complicate their design too much and be more trouble than its worth. So that is why you can't turn it off I believe.


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post #204 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:33 AM
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If you don't like the Panny just pay two to thee times as much for a Sony or JVC -- we know how well that worked for some people here. I'm keeping an open mind. From what I can tell Panasonic is trying very hard to give enthusiasts a great projector at a very competitive price. I'm certainly going to give it serious consideration. All the comments about 3D are only opinions and having lived with 3D for six months now I just shake my head -- you're entitled to an opinion, but it is yours and doesn't necessarily apply to me and it may very well not apply to anyone else on planet earth as well.
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post #205 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streamerlover View Post

oh no! Now we will get into a debate about how much THAT will affect the picture! Personally I can't wait until this puppy ships! I , like a few others, went from a JVS rs2 (well, the pioneer clone) to a 4000 and could not be happier! Been real lucky and never had a dust blob problem either!

When I installed my Mits HC6000 I centered my mount just in case I bought a PJ later that had a centered lens. While setting the Mits up I could not tell any difference in PQ from straight on and shifted. The Mits also has about 3" offset.

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post #206 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:42 AM
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Mitsubishi's are on average sharper than most other projectors, even across the board with varying technologies. That said, it is hard to see 1-2 pixels off from normal seating distance, it's impossible with video for the most part, but you can tell if you put TWO of the same projectors side-by-side and have one with max lens shift and the other with none. I've done that before, it's still not easy to tell when watching videos, but you can tell with test patterns or text easy enough.


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post #207 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

If you don't like the Panny just pay two to thee times as much for a Sony or JVC -- we know how well that worked for some people here. I'm keeping an open mind. From what I can tell Panasonic is trying very hard to give enthusiasts a great projector at a very competitive price. I'm certainly going to give it serious consideration. All the comments about 3D are only opinions and having lived with 3D for six months now I just shake my head -- you're entitled to an opinion, but it is yours and doesn't necessarily apply to me and it may very well not apply to anyone else on planet earth as well.

How do you like 3D now that you have had it for awhile? Do you still find you use it alot or affter then newness is gone it is just another gadget. I want to try it out but have a couple of big things holding me back.

1) I wear glasses and wearing glasses over glasses just plain sucks
2) Content, not alot of it and none that can be rented. That make me buy BluRays that I might not really want just to see them in 3D
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post #208 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I was joking about the vasiline but i actually heard that about the ae4000 when compared to the Epson 6500.

Why can't the smoothscreen be turned off?? I had the Epson and was never bothered by SDE, and are you guys seriously saying that you can see SDE on LCOS? Thats hard to believe.

As I mentioned earlier, I had an Epson 8500, QC'd from AVS. It was no sharper than my AE4000. The screen door was very obvious from my 1.3 screen width viewing position. It also had very muddy contrast, which I assume, was a compensation for the bit deeper black level. My AE2000 had better contrast than the Epson did.

Has anyone who is bashing SS even viewed an AE4000? I have owned all 3 technologies, and my AE4000 is the best by far for MY viewing needs: Large screen, small room, at close distance.

The only reason I'll upgrade to the AE7000 is for the 3D, because I happen to like 3D.

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post #209 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

If you don't like the Panny just pay two to thee times as much for a Sony or JVC -- we know how well that worked for some people here. I'm keeping an open mind. From what I can tell Panasonic is trying very hard to give enthusiasts a great projector at a very competitive price.

I'm keeping an open mind and interested in it somewhat as well, but we will see.

Just to keep this thread real...

For people not into 3D, it still might be difficult to justify the expense of the Panny 7000 over the JVC HD250 or even an RS40.

The HD250 and Panny 7000 will likely be within shooting distance of prices.

We still all expect there to be the large NATIVE CONTRAST disadvantage compared to the JVC, but the Panny may OUST it in some other way. That said, it would be cool if the Panny could hit 8000:1 native in a best mode, but it'll probably only hit around 5000:1.

The dynamic contrast claims they give really don't matter much, so Native Contrast is all that really matters. I mean once you close an IRIS down so much on a projector with only 5000:1 native contrast, you too quickly compress the white levels contrast points so that the image becomes muddy. The IRIS can go down a little and not mess the image up, but you don't want the IRIS doing 100,000:1 contrast, that would kill the picture. Well I suppose I should say with every IRIS I have seen so far, but maybe it will break new ground, who knows.

What I mean is, a properly calibrated IRIS on an LCD projector is going to be purposefully TAMED down compared to max spec anyhow. Many calibrators just turn the IRIS off anyways, I like to leave it enabled a little though usually.


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post #210 of 1396 Old 08-02-2011, 10:08 AM
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So has it been determined if this projector allows vertical stretch in 3D?
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