It's official. Projectors are obsolete 750" OLED coming this fall from Sony! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 06:33 AM
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This could be a revolutionary device.
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post #272 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 07:05 AM
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Looks great! Conflicting reports regarding size... is it a 100 inch or 750 inch????
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post #273 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Looks great! Conflicting reports regarding size... is it a 100 inch or 750 inch????

150" or 750" can look the same size depending on the distance viewed. The headset throws the image back 20m, so it is a 750" screen.

Without anything next to the screen for reference though, people that are used to home projectors, seem to be estimating the image to be around that kind of size.
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post #274 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Looks great! Conflicting reports regarding size... is it a 100 inch or 750 inch????

My guess is that it depends on how good the wearer is at judging distance based solely on focus with no other visual cues. There are so many other cues people use to judge distance that are much more effective that it is likely most people will suck at it and why there will be so much discrepancy.
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post #275 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 07:14 AM
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The reason Sony quoted 20m is the optics design in such a way that our eyes focus at infinity. Without good optics and holding the iphone near to your eyes, you will feel the display is too near and our eye lens need to adjust to near distance focusing thus feeling fatigue in short period of time.
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post #276 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjyap View Post

The reason Sony quoted 20m is the optics design in such a way that our eyes focus at infinity. Without good optics and holding the iphone near to your eyes, you will feel the display is too near and our eye lens need to adjust to near distance to focus thus feeling fatigue in short period of time.

If it works... I'm half sure it would cook your eyesight on the process.

That could be a problem, no?
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post #277 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 11:44 AM
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no one have updates from CEDIA bout this gadget?
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post #278 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 11:57 AM
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I'm of the mind that all these various company's descriptions of "Looks like an X inch screen viewed at a distance of Y!", shouldn't be taken literally and have absolutely zip to do with how the eye is actually focused in use. It is just their shorthand way to describe to the lay public "It has a perceived field of view (FOV) which subtends 45 degrees of visual arc across the horizon". That's, however, completely meaningless to many and goes right over their heads, so instead their marketing team concocts an example which they feel sounds impressive to the average reader, which would be a representation of that FOV.

Obviously people who take every word Sony says literally and reiterate the press release's example as:

Quote:


The headset throws the image back 20m

and in comparing the difference with the Zeiss:

Quote:


the image will be much smaller, and viewed at a far closer viewing distance. (45" at 2m instead of 750" at 20m")

seem to feel differently about the matter, and I suspect will probably be "informing us" all "how it really is" shortly, however without substantiating links* to back their claims, I'm not convinced. [*hint hint ]

[Obviously the optics of these things do indeed "throw" the image back, to some perceived distance, but I suspect (but I don't know for sure) it is to, or close to, infinity focus for all of them.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #279 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 12:04 PM
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one more thing: see 1080p or 720p content in a 46" at +3,5m is almost the same (at least for me) but in a huge screen like 150" at 4m we arent gonna see lot of pixels on a 720p movie?
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post #280 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 02:42 PM
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Just tried the unit at CEDIA. No this will not replace projectors. I could not wait to get it off. The biggest problem for me was that one must remain still to use the unit. Movement will give a person a big headache. Lots of ghosting and very uncomfortable. I do think there is potential for such a unit for gaming but I just can't see having to leave this on my head for a two hour movie. The price will be$799.
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post #281 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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How could there be ghosting? 2 eyes + 2 separate screens = no ghosting. Maybe your brain is creating the ghosting?
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post #282 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Just tried the unit at CEDIA. No this will not replace projectors. I could not wait to get it off. The biggest problem for me was that one must remain still to use the unit. Movement will give a person a big headache. Lots of ghosting and very uncomfortable. I do think there is potential for such a unit for gaming but I just can't see having to leave this on my head for a two hour movie. The price will be$799.

Yeah I can imagine using it standing up is not ideal and could throw you off balance due to conflicting information reaching the brain. And then some people are used to things near the head/eyes and some are not. But if you disregard your discomfort, how was the picture?
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post #283 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Just tried the unit at CEDIA. No this will not replace projectors. I could not wait to get it off. The biggest problem for me was that one must remain still to use the unit. Movement will give a person a big headache. Lots of ghosting and very uncomfortable...

Thanks. Well that nails it for me. No go.

I guess the ghosting reported in some other reviews that some of us, including me, were questioning why it even exists, really does exist. Lens flare, perhaps? I wonder if the optics are coated? [Which can help but not cure.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #284 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Just tried the unit at CEDIA. No this will not replace projectors. I could not wait to get it off. The biggest problem for me was that one must remain still to use the unit. Movement will give a person a big headache. Lots of ghosting and very uncomfortable. I do think there is potential for such a unit for gaming but I just can't see having to leave this on my head for a two hour movie. The price will be$799.

are you sure you have used the device correctly with personal adjustments (this is very very important) ?
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post #285 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horizone View Post

But if you disregard your discomfort, how was the picture?

I'm reminded of:

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #286 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by p_sousa View Post

are you sure you have used the device correctly with personal adjustments (this is very very important) ?

Indeed...incorrect alignment is the ONLY reason there is "ghosting". I have had the i-glasses for fourteen years and the so-called ghosting is resolved by aligning the headset to center--unlike the Sony headset there is no option to align the lenses to the eyes.

It's funny that the term "ghosting" is used because it's not even the same problem we experience with lcd-shutter/polarized glasses. Until someone who actually knows how to use an HMD puts the headset through its paces, this is just slander.
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post #287 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroflux View Post

Indeed...incorrect alignment is the ONLY reason there is "ghosting".

And for how many minutes did you get to use the new Sonys?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #288 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:19 PM
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There is ZERO crosstalk when the pupilary distance is set correctly on the Sony HMD. The writer doesn't know what he's talking about / doesn't know hoiow to set up the HMD properly if he/she sees doubling of an image.

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post #289 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:21 PM
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I get to use it (at CES) for about an hour. I think there were only a couple of writers whowere invited to play with the HMD at a long period of time during the Sony booth set up a couple of days before CES opened.

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post #290 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
And for how many minutes did you get to use the new Sonys?
sorry to say this but you are a litle anoying...
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post #291 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:25 PM
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He's not seeing 3D TV crosstalk ghosting, if you ask me. He's seeing lens flare, possibly even from a reflection from his own eyeball surface. It's the nature of optics you place next to the eye like binoculars and microscopes, even occurs with eyeglasses at times.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #292 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:25 PM
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so what did you think of it?
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post #293 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:28 PM
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I guess ghosting was the wrong term to use. I did not have enough time to adjust the the crosstalk to 0 so I guess some of the things I said may have been unfair. I just found that any movement on my part was the big problem with these units. I also found the unit very uncomfortable and I could not imagine having it on for a long period of time. I did mention this to the person doing the demonstration and she did say that one must not move around to enjoy the picture. I could even see problems with video games realizing that one often moves playing games.

I will try to be more open minded and test it again tomorrow or Saturday. I will also try to be very careful adjusting for the PD.
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post #294 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert9674 View Post

so what did you think of it?

If you're asking me, my findings after only an hour playing with the unit:

1. I didn't see ghosting, flare or reflection and I'm wearing glasses. The only reflection I see is from my own glasses but I. Used to that)

2. The image only feels like an 85" screen viewed from about 9ft away

3. I can't see pixel structure even though I tried to.

4. Motion resolution is very high. Almost undiscernible from the static resolution (read: amazing)

5. Black barsl are subjectively equal to a properly calibrated Elite Kuro when playing back 21:9 image.

6. HMD is front heavy when sitting up straight. But if you're on a La-Z-Boy and rest your head, it's absolutely fine.



2

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post #295 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

And for how many minutes did you get to use the new Sonys?

Absolutely zero--and I am 100% sure it's user error. After watching so many people put the device on through many youtube videos, it's obvious these people couldn't turn on a projector. They'd panic while it was warming up and press every damn button on the remote. I believe that our recent disgusted friend was just another person who didn't know how to use it, and didn't care enough to learn.
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post #296 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroflux View Post

Absolutely zero--and I am 100% sure it's user error.

Well since you are 100% sure, I would assume incapable of error yourself, yet have never even used this device yourself like he has, then we might as well close the thread and stop reading others' reports if they conflict with how you know the device performs, despite having never used them.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #297 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If you're asking me, my findings after only an hour playing with the unit:

1. I didn't see ghosting, flare or reflection and I'm wearing glasses. The only reflection I see is from my own glasses but I. Used to that)

2. The image only feels like an 85" screen viewed from about 9ft away

3. I can't see pixel structure even though I tried to.

4. Motion resolution is very high. Almost undiscernible from the static resolution (read: amazing)

5. Black barsl are subjectively equal to a properly calibrated Elite Kuro when playing back 21:9 image.

6. HMD is front heavy when sitting up straight. But if you're on a La-Z-Boy and rest your head, it's absolutely fine.



2

85" for 9ft is more than fine for me. xD
how you compare the IQ in 2D of sony hmz-t1 against top and expensive projectors?
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post #298 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 04:00 PM
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"Every eyepiece produces at least one double reflection and sometimes two or more. The more double reflections, the greater the chance the eyepiece will have 'ghost' images. These are not only distracting, they can markedly reduce contrast....

The possibilities of ghost images (including those caused by a double reflection between the last surface of the eyelens and the cornea) rises dramatically as the number of elements and associated air-glass surfaces increases. Care is taken to 'design out' ghosts because any double reflection which comes to a focus or near focus will produce a ghost image. These typically appear as either star like points to amorphous patches of light 'floating' in the fov. Ghosts may be stationary, move in the same direction as the image, or in the opposite direction., or even float around the field as the observer's head moves in the case of eye-ghosts." [emphasis mine]

Source

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #299 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 06:04 PM
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Since the 750", 150", 85" estimates are all subjective and conflicting, can we just have testers estimate the fov in terms of screen width, i.e.:

viewing from
1x screen width
1.2x screen width
1.5x screen width
etc.

After all, it doesn't matter if it produces the equivalent of a one mile wide screen, if it's a one mile wide screen viewed from 10 miles away, we're talking about being seated at 10x screen width, the same as being seated 45.8 feet away from a 55" TV, which would make for a really small fov.

Thus far,
750" @ 20m = 1.056x
85" @ 9' = 1.27x

Not too many folks can easily tell how far away optics cause their eyes to focus, but if these things produce the illusion of a 1x to 1.2x image from anywhere around a 9ft to near infinity focus and adjusted properly, can produce an image equaling or excelling current top of the line displays (color, black levels, contrast etc. without crosstalk when properly adjusted), I'm definitely interested.


Max
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post #300 of 2063 Old 09-08-2011, 06:09 PM
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I'll be first to admit that my 85" from 9ft is subjective. I use that number because my 16:9 area at home is approximately 85" and I sit from 9ft away and the image I see inside the HMD look virtually similar to what I'm used to. Nothing immersive (I use CIH and the my screen 2.4:1 diagonal is about 9ft)

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