It's official. Projectors are obsolete 750" OLED coming this fall from Sony! - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 2063 Old 10-05-2011, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

I disagree. To me the envoloping experience is MUCH more important than to not see the "dots". Yes, I would prefer not to see them, but I can phase them out and *not* focus on them (no pun intended) if required. See past them so to speak. To have a smaller FOV would be a BIG no no. I want the cinema experience not the TV experience - and size trumps absolute image quality. That's why we prefer front projection over TV's in the first place. Is it not?

IMHO - and I bet I'm not the only one.

+1. I'm willing to trade seeing the odd pixels during more static scenes for a wide FOV. Keep in mind this should already have better blacks than anything I'm likely to be able to afford.

I don't want to strap a bulky thing on my head only to experience a medium size screen from the back row.
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post #812 of 2063 Old 10-05-2011, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

uhmmm, there is already an official term for these type of units... it's called HMD (Head Mounted Display). I thought you've been in the business for a very long time.

Yes, I'm familiar with the term, hence my use of it in posts 179, 232, 371, 416, 483, 761, and 767, despite my personal opinion it is not a very good one to describe these Sony's, but, whatever. Frankly I don't really care what my proposed forum section is labeled, ["HMDs" is better than nothing], but I personally don't think threads about this Sony or the Zeiss HD Cinemizer belong here, in the front projector section, any more than threads about certain rear projection TVs do. They are both simply OT.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #813 of 2063 Old 10-05-2011, 10:21 PM
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We are here as guests of the AVSforum. If the moderators are fine in leaving the thread here it does not matter what you or I think.

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post #814 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 02:37 AM
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It actually might be nice to combine all 3 threads floating around on AVS Forum into one. Maybe once the device is released that might be a good time. Maybe we just need to wait and see if this thing takes off or sizzles out.
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post #815 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 05:49 AM
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What a great read!

One of the best posts (can't find it now - about page 13-ish, I think) commented on these being fairly unique.

When other manufacturers get involved - JVC, Panasonic, Pioneer, Samsung - what will we get, and for how much.

With most consumer electronics the first release is often the most expensive - and often by a long way.

Imagine where we'll be in 2 years's time. 1080p? Adjustanble zoom to alter the amount of your FOV? $400? $300?

These things won't replace projectors (not for a long while at least) but I bet they'll be immediately seen as 'kewl' by many gamers, and they could have a big impact on home cinema. I often fancy watching a film, but won't be happy with the plasma, but can't be bothered with the projector. And meanwhile 'er indoors is watching Corrie.

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post #816 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post


These things won't replace projectors (not for a long while at least) but I bet they'll be immediately seen as 'kewl' by many gamers, and they could have a big impact on home cinema. I often fancy watching a film, but won't be happy with the plasma, but can't be bothered with the projector. And meanwhile 'er indoors is watching Corrie.

Steve W

I agree , a videophile version of this contrapion would be great for me. I'd have my own personal home cinema when travelling. 90% of my home cinema watching is done alone to be honest anyway.

Be very cool for gaming , my wife HATES me gaming.

digital film janitor
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post #817 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 08:03 AM
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I'm not a gamer (each to their own - fair play), though I do occasionally dig out my old SNES to play Super Castlevania IV.

Since Me and Me Julie had to kids (now 2 and 4) we just don't get in our regular Friday night film on the projector. We're both constantly knackered, and it's rare that both of us are up to firing up the projector.

I think if I had one of these it'd get a fair bit of use.

I suppose the question is whether or not to wait to see what else comes out. I hope they get one in their Sony store in Leeds or Wakefield that I can check out.

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post #818 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Yes, I'm familiar with the term, hence my use of it in posts 179, 232, 371, 416, 483, 761, and 767, despite my personal opinion it is not a very good one to describe these Sony's, but, whatever. Frankly I don't really care what my proposed forum section is labeled, ["HMDs" is better than nothing], but I personally don't think threads about this Sony or the Zeiss HD Cinemizer belong here, in the front projector section, any more than threads about certain rear projection TVs do. They are both simply OT.

So? Stop reading it then. There was a connection drawn with the display's perceived angle of view to the user similar to a conventional projected image. Sheesh!!
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post #819 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 08:31 AM
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If AVS threads that were placed in the wrong area were all corrected, it would provide at least one full time job for some period of time ..

Get over it ..

As well, much of this banter means zilch to me .. I want to see this thing in action .. the rest is nothing but speculation / brief hands on and guesses ..

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post #820 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RonF View Post

So? Stop reading it then. There was a connection drawn with the display's perceived angle of view to the user similar to a conventional projected image. Sheesh!!

But I have interest in these products, hope they flourish and improve (now that they are HD), want to continue reading about them, and am merely commenting that it might be nice to have a forum section dedicated to these devices. If you disagree with this opinion, why not state your case with an explanation as to why? Sheesh!!

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #821 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 10:16 AM
 
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OK. Since we have no more info, let's work on what the letters stand for: HMZ-T1.

HM stands for head mounted I would think. What does the Z stand for? What does the T1 stand for? Trial 1, Take 1?
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post #822 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 10:37 AM
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On a bit of a side note, does anybody know where that image of the boy with the goggles is from? I've seen it before and I'd love to get a print or something, but I've got no idea where to look for a higher res version...
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post #823 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

But I have interest in these products, hope they flourish and improve (now that they are HD), want to continue reading about them, and am merely commenting that it might be nice to have a forum section dedicated to these devices. If you disagree with this opinion, why not state your case with an explanation as to why? Sheesh!!

I did:

"There was a connection drawn with the display's perceived angle of view to the user similar to a conventional projected image"


When there's a number of these devices bumping around with lots of info then I'm sure your separate forum will be created. In the meantime "personally" I like seeing it here, and enjoying the comments from a lot of projector oriented folks in this forum whose opinions I trust about visual imaging. Most all of my equipment has been purchased on that kind of trust alone.
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post #824 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 11:19 AM
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sorry if this was already discussed but i couldnt find it searching the thread.

does anyone know how this will work for someone that wears glasses? do you not need to wear glasses anymore since the screen is literally in front of your eyes? or do you just wear this over the glasses?

i hope there is a better solution because this is the coolest innovation in home theater for a long time at a very reasonable price, and all reviews point to a very positive experience.

I just dont know how it will work for someone that wear glasses.

thanks
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post #825 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

I did:

"There was a connection drawn with the display's perceived angle of view to the user similar to a conventional projected image"
.

False, you didn't. This passage in red does not answer my question and address why you don't agree with me that a dedicated forum section might be nice, at all. It simply suggests why the original poster might have chosen to put the thread here and not in some other random forum section. Only subsequently to your claim above, "I did", do we then see this more valid response:

Quote:


When there's a number of these devices bumping around with lots of info then I'm sure your separate forum will be created. In the meantime "personally" I like seeing it here, and enjoying the comments from a lot of projector oriented folks in this forum whose opinions I trust about visual imaging.

Ah, that's much better and a fair argument as to why, unlike me, you don't think a dedicated section of the forum for these things is (currently) a good idea. Now, finally, you have given a response which actually addresses my original question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

But I have interest in these products,... and am merely commenting that it might be nice to have a forum section dedicated to these devices. If you disagree with this opinion, why not state your case with an explanation as to why?

Thank you.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #826 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gagaliya View Post

does anyone know how this will work for someone that wears glasses? do you not need to wear glasses anymore since the screen is literally in front of your eyes? or do you just wear this over the glasses?

The ability for an ocular (eyepiece) to allow a full, correct view to a person forced to push them away from the eye, in order to fit in an intermediate eyeglass, is referred to as "a large eye relief" (or in some circles "having a high eye point"). Initial reports are good that the Sony's should have no problem with this. If you generally need glasses for distance use (myopia) then you will most likely need them for these Sony's, too. If you have very thick glasses and need a very large large eye relief, then I would definitely recommend trying them in person first before committing to them.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #827 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

The ability for an ocular (eyepiece) to allow a full, correct view to a person forced to push them away from the eye, in order to fit in an intermediate eyeglass, is referred to as "a large eye relief" (or in some circles "having a high eye point"). Initial reports are good that the Sony's should have no problem with this. If you generally need glasses for distance use (myopia) then you will most likely need them for these Sony's, too. If you have very thick glasses and need a very large large eye relief, then I would definitely recommend trying them in person first before committing to them.

In addition, 3 different headrest pieces were said to be included to vary the distance from the forehead (video taken at IFA--the "how to put the headset on for dummies" version). Whether that would be a solution for thick glasses is anyone's guess. It is worth knowing the existence of extra headrest pieces (and then requesting) with the demonstration model.
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post #828 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 03:28 PM
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Do any of the specs mention if this thing will have any type of Frame Interpolation, especially in 3d? Sony has some of the best implementation of FI in the business and I'm a big fan. Watched a 3d movie last night and once again, noticed how much I HATE 24 fps jitter. I use Sony's highest level of FI when watching any 2d material but the 2010 models can't implement it on 3d material. Guess I should have waited. I KNEW they would eventually implement it in 3d as well. I just didn't figure it would be so soon.


Max
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post #829 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Do any of the specs mention if this thing will have any type of Frame Interpolation, especially in 3d? Sony has some of the best implementation of FI in the business and I'm a big fan. Watched a 3d movie last night and once again, noticed how much I HATE 24 fps jitter. I use Sony's highest level of FI when watching any 2d material but the 2010 models can't implement it on 3d material. Guess I should have waited. I KNEW they would eventually implement it in 3d as well. I just didn't figure it would be so soon.


Max

David put a review up on Amazon as well as in the HMZ-T1 thread that partially addressed that concern:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

5. I played 24p movies, and the display seems to play it properly, there is no OSD shown on the prototype HMZ-T1 so I don't know whether it's doing 2:3 pulldown properly or doing 5:5 or 3:3.

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post #830 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroflux View Post

David put a review up on Amazon as well as in the HMZ-T1 thread that partially addressed that concern:

Darn. THIS comment in particular
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

6. For the demo HMZ-T1, it seems like there is no MotioFlow/CineFlow activated, no video-look at all

is discouraging. I sincerely hope that there is an available FI setting on the actual retail units (it seems lots of things were disabled on the demo units).

If FI is non-existent on this puppy, I might have to end up just getting a new projector. I hear both the AE7000 and HW30AES have FI available in 3D.

Personally, the quest for me has always been the most natural looking, true to life rendition of video. Someone in the AE7000 owner's thread stated that the Panny's FI set to 3 (its highest level?) made the image appear like looking out a window at reality, with no hitching, jitter or stuttering.

Personally, if I had to choose between the two, although I would love perfect blacks and an infinite contrast ratio, I'd probably be willing to settle for dark blacks and lifelike motion vs super dark blacks and 24fps jitter. Did I mention how much I absolutely HATE 24fps jitter? Film makers need to start moving past this stupidly archaic standard already.


Max
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post #831 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

I'm not a gamer (each to their own - fair play), though I do occasionally dig out my old SNES to play Super Castlevania IV.

I am a gamer and prefer exploring the interiors of mysterious derelict spaceships or surviving in a ruined city to watching....stories, but i agree, to each there own.
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post #832 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 05:17 PM
 
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For what its worth, I really don't think this is an either or decision. Either the HMZ-T1 or a projector or a flat panel or whatever. It is something quite different and a alternative viewing experience choice. You know, I am going to have all three. I already have a HT, several really good projectors, and a multitude of flat panels most of which are for non serious viewing, kitchen, bed room etc. Now with the HMZ-T1 I can do serious viewing in the bed room too but that is not really the point.

Looking at the specifications, there does not appear to be selectable FI. I guess we will have to wait for thw owners manual to know for sure.
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post #833 of 2063 Old 10-06-2011, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

I am a gamer and prefer exploring the interiors of mysterious derelict spaceships or surviving in a ruined city to watching....stories, but i agree, to each there own.

And take a virtual tour in Google Earth in 3D and cities. I imagine we can have a virtual tour in Rome.

http://3dvision-blog.com/tag/google-earth-3d/
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post #834 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

I agree , a videophile version of this contrapion would be great for me. I'd have my own personal home cinema when travelling. 90% of my home cinema watching is done alone to be honest anyway.

What would make it a "videophile" version? 1080p?

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Originally Posted by dja1ien View Post

On a bit of a side note, does anybody know where that image of the boy with the goggles is from? I've seen it before and I'd love to get a print or something, but I've got no idea where to look for a higher res version...

http://pyxelated.deviantart.com/art/...x1200-25788628 Prints are available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagaliya View Post

does anyone know how this will work for someone that wears glasses? do you not need to wear glasses anymore since the screen is literally in front of your eyes? or do you just wear this over the glasses?

You can wear them over your glasses, people have done so and said it wasn't a problem. The only issue might be the optional light blocker if you have large lenses.

Whether you need them or not depends on whether you need them for distancethe virtual image is 65ft away.

One of the posters here (I forget who, sorry) mentioned that for his 3DTV's glasses, he got his optician to cut a pair of flat lenses to his prescription which he attached with Blu-tack. I think I'll probably do the same thing with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Personally, the quest for me has always been the most natural looking, true to life rendition of video. Someone in the AE7000 owner's thread stated that the Panny's FI set to 3 (its highest level?) made the image appear like looking out a window at reality, with no hitching, jitter or stuttering.

Personally, if I had to choose between the two, although I would love perfect blacks and an infinite contrast ratio, I'd probably be willing to settle for dark blacks and lifelike motion vs super dark blacks and 24fps jitter. Did I mention how much I absolutely HATE 24fps jitter? Film makers need to start moving past this stupidly archaic standard already.

The objective should be being true to the source. Many (I almost want to say most) films are graded in a way specifically so they do not look like reality, but evoke a certain mood for the scene or film as a whole.

I do wonder how motion handling is going to be with 24p sources though, and whether there are going to be motionflow options. I personally think Sony's motionflow is the best out there at removing 24p judder without making everything look sped-up as most do.

With OLED's pixel response time being so much better than anything else available, I do wonder how pure 24p will look on it. I still had problems with 24p on CRTs at 48/72Hz, but far less than LCD/Plasma/Other. I find 24p to be almost completely unwatchable on flat panels/projectors without it. I'm glad that we have some directors now looking to change from 24p to higher framerates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

I am a gamer and prefer exploring the interiors of mysterious derelict spaceships or surviving in a ruined city to watching....stories, but i agree, to each there own.

This sort of thing will be fantastic in 3D. I feel a lot of older people look down on gamers because they either have no idea what that really means, or they see things like Call of Duty multiplayer where you're basically a mass-murderer.

The appeal of games for me is being able to explore another world, or being put into tense situations that don't necessarily result in you shooting hundreds of people.

Sure, most games probably do have combat in them, but for a lot of games, that isn't the focus and many give you the option of avoiding it. (which is usually a much greater challenge) I look forward to playing games like Deus Ex (where it's possible to finish the game without killing anyone) Fallout, Skyrim, Mass Effect or the The Witcher and exploring these hand-crafted worlds.
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post #835 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The objective should be being true to the source. Many (I almost want to say most) films are graded in a way specifically so they do not look like reality, but evoke a certain mood for the scene or film as a whole.

Graded? Aside from certain things that are done for artistic reasons such as using slow motion etc. for emphasis, most of the artifacts of 24fps are due to compromises that have to be made for retaining that archaic standard.

It's not quite accurate to say that they're specifically filmed to NOT look like reality. It's just the compromises that folks have become used to. The inherent jitter is of course, due to the really low frame rate (and it annoys me even when watching movies in a theater).

The blurring during motion is also an artifact of the ridiculously low frame rate. Because the frame rate is so low, the camera's shutter is kept open longer specifically to produce this blurring during fast motion as this reduces the average person's perception of the jitter. If each frame in a 24fps scene with fast motion was sharp, the jerkiness of the movements would be much more apparent to regular viewers.

There is nothing 'sped-up' about the look of FI. If a person runs 20 feet in a second, they're still running 20 feet in a second with FI. The difference is that instead of seeing the person move that 20 feet in hitching, stuttering, completely blurry frames, they now move much more smoothly and can now be more clearly seen, as if you were watching the person in real life.

Unfortunately, there are numerous reasons why directors and film makers are still stuck on this stupidly slow standard. One is simply complacency because they've been stuck on this standard for so long, another reason though, is that many folks have become so programmed to accept the inherent motion artifacts of 24fps to be the norm that they are resistant to a different look (as many claim the soap opera effect of intense FI 'takes them out of the movie experience').

I personally would like the motion in a movie to look like real life because everytime something moves fast in a 24fps movie, that aggravating stuttering and blurring reminds me that I'm in a theater watching a movie filmed at a framerate standard from almost a century ago (it was standardized in the late 1920's). I find it a lot easier to be involved in and 'get lost in' a movie when I'm watching it with FI as the motion artifacts are no longer as distracting (although 2010 level FI still leaves something to be desired).


Quote:


I do wonder how motion handling is going to be with 24p sources though, and whether there are going to be motionflow options

I really do hope they have some form of it implemented in this device.

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I'm glad that we have some directors now looking to change from 24p to higher framerates.

Yes, and hopefully when 48fps movies begin debuting at theaters, we don't get too many folks whining that it looks 'sped-up', or "it looks like I'm watching a soap opera", or "it takes me out of the feeling that I'm watching a movie", because this will just serve to slow the adoption of higher frame rates by studios and other directors.


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post #836 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 01:30 PM
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I look forward to playing games like Deus Ex (where it's possible to finish the game without killing anyone) Fallout, Skyrim, Mass Effect or the The Witcher and exploring these hand-crafted worlds.

I see these primarily for 3D. These games are not 3D. For me to look forward to playing these games on the HMZ-T1 (and I would) it would have to do 2D to 3D conversion. I have not heard any mention of this. Nor is there any indication of this on the Sony site. It seems like a no brainier to include this feature. It would be a huge selling point. So if it exists, why not mention it?
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post #837 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 01:39 PM
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Graded?

Color grading (or color timing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_grading

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Originally Posted by Baubas View Post

I see these primarily for 3D. These games are not 3D. For me to look forward to playing these games on the HMZ-T1 (and I would) it would have to do 2D to 3D conversion. I have not heard any mention of this. Nor is there any indication of this on the Sony site. It seems like a no brainier to include this feature. It would be a huge selling point. So if it exists, why not mention it?

On PC just about any game can be played in 3D.

2D to 3D conversion is largely worthless in my experience. I've yet to see a good implementation.
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post #838 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Baubas View Post

I see these primarily for 3D. These games are not 3D. For me to look forward to playing these games on the HMZ-T1 (and I would) it would have to do 2D to 3D conversion. I have not heard any mention of this. Nor is there any indication of this on the Sony site. It seems like a no brainier to include this feature. It would be a huge selling point. So if it exists, why not mention it?

What the hell? There are drivers that render the game in 3D: nVidia, IZ3D, and DDD. Deus Ex, Fallout, Mass Effect, and The Witcher work with these drivers...Skyrim isn't even out, but more than likely it will be compatible.

The real problem is that certain parts each game engine don't have proper depth values, i.e. certain lights in Mass Effect, water and sky in Oblivion, etc. Some games have patches that fix the depth issues. MTBS3D has a database you should check out.
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post #839 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 02:36 PM
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I see these primarily for 3D. These games are not 3D. For me to look forward to playing these games on the HMZ-T1 (and I would) it would have to do 2D to 3D conversion. I have not heard any mention of this. Nor is there any indication of this on the Sony site. It seems like a no brainier to include this feature. It would be a huge selling point. So if it exists, why not mention it?

Not sure how you ended up quoting Chronoptimist's statement with my screen name, but I wasn't the one talking about playing games with the HMZ-T1 as I'm not a gamer.

That said though, I DO like the potential for virtual 3D tourism that could arise as 3D becomes more common. I'm dating myself (again), but I still remember all those ViewMaster reels that allowed me to see destinations I'd never been to in 3D.

I could envision a series of 3D videos in the same vein. In fact, a 3D video of the Utah canyonlands (Bryce, Zion, Buckskin Gulch etc.) would be absolutely amazing.

And even though I'm not a gamer, if some company developed a game with a Hi-def 3D rendition of the world of Pandora from Avatar, I might have to check it out.

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Color grading (or color timing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_grading

Ah... I see thanks for the clarification. Yes, I see what the poster meant, but although color palettes and color timing are used to create surreal environments and to create a certain mood (bluish tones for cold, yellowish for warmth etc.) I don't consider that to be anywhere in the same category as the stuttering, blurry motion artifacts of 24fps (perhaps because I've grown accustomed to wearing sunglasses or tinted driving glasses etc. and have adapted to the fact that some of these introduce a color cast on everything seen through them).

I also don't particularly see how color timing takes one out of the movie experience or potentially detracts from the 'you are there' sensation. In the Matrix movies for instance, all the scenes inside the Matrix had a greenish cast to them as a subtle nod at the old monochromatic green computer monitors, whilst all the scenes in the real world had a bluish cast to them to differentiate between the two.

In the Jet Li movie 'Hero', each version/retelling of the events was accompanied by a different color palette differentiating between them (still to date, one of my favorite uses of different color palettes in a movie).

None of these differences in color palettes or color timing detracted from my ability to lose myself in the movie (neither does viewing a b/w movie devoid of color), but the motion artifacts do. I guess I'm just more sensitive to/distracted by 24fps motion artifacts than many folks who are used to them.


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post #840 of 2063 Old 10-07-2011, 02:47 PM
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And even though I'm not a gamer, if some company developed a game with a Hi-def 3D rendition of the world of Pandora from Avatar, I might have to check it out.

The Avatar game runs in 3D.
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