It's official. Projectors are obsolete 750" OLED coming this fall from Sony! - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 01:46 PM
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Something like these might have been a perfect alternative to our purchase of the 46" hx929 for the family room. My wife was happy with the 46EX723, and for the difference in price I could have bought the ex723 for them, the 3D glasses for me, and still have $$$ left over for extras.

I'd love to see how playing a game like Bad Company 2 on these glasses compares to playing on a 100" projected image viewed from 10', which is awesome.

What would be really slick would be to have a portable XBOX/PS3 for being able to game while in transit.

I look forward to checking these out.

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post #152 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 01:53 PM
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Thanks Chronoptimist. Very good info! Great picture of the optics. Now I can visualize a little better what this thing does. Do you think pixel structure will be visible because it's only 720p?
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post #153 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 02:10 PM
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One look in real life and we will kmow about the visability of the pixel structure but based on the equivant size and distance of a comparable large screen, the pixell structure should not be visable. The fact that its only 720p really doesn't bother me though obviousl;y if one views 1080p Bluray 24, source resolution will be compromised by one third. But for me and sports at mostly 720p, it should make zero difference and actually be better because scaling won't be required.

No display is anything close to perfect and picking on any one weakness as a how could they, what were they thinking, I won't buy it is REALLY only important if that one thing is very bad or is an area of particular importance. This thing has on offs I think of over a million to one. Whatever. I wouldn't care if it only did35,000 to one. Not important to me. But it might be to you.

If you are an on off freak, this might have the very best on the market and better than any projector.

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post #154 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Something like these might have been a perfect alternative to our purchase of the 46" hx929 for the family room. My wife was happy with the 46EX723, and for the difference in price I could have bought the ex723 for them, the 3D glasses for me, and still have $$$ left over for extras.
And that's exactly why I'm so excited about this. I bought a HX900 last year, and I'm happy with it, but I've been thinking about trying to get another projector in this place. I'd need something very short throw, and wouldn't be able to do a full room treatment.

This should cost a fraction of a high-end projector and potentially give me an equal or better experience.

If it was out last year, I would never have bought the HX900.

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I'd love to see how playing a game like Bad Company 2 on these glasses compares to playing on a 100" projected image viewed from 10', which is awesome.
Thats a 40° FOV so it's potentially going to fill more of your vision.

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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
What would be really slick would be to have a portable XBOX/PS3 for being able to game while in transit.
Unlike most HMDs, this is not a portable unit. It's not battery powered and has to be connected to a processing box:


The Zeiss Cinemizer OLED are a similar idea, but are smaller, more lightweight and battery powered as they're designed for portable use. I don't think the image quality is going to be nearly as good as this, despite them also using 720p OLEDs, but they could potentially be the first portable HMD that offered good enough image quality that it would be enjoyable on a flight etc.

The PlayStation Vita, due out early next year outside of Japan, is basically a portable PS3. Not quite as capable, but offering a similar experience and great image quality. Unfortunately, I don't think they will be shipping them with a TV out option, but it could come in a future hardware revision as Sony did with the original PlayStation Portable.


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No display is anything close to perfect and picking on any one weakness as a how could they, what were they thinking, I won't buy it is REALLY only important if that one thing is very bad or is an area of particular importance. This thing has on offs I think of over a million to one. Whatever. I wouldn't care if it only did35,000 to one. Not important to me. But it might be to you.
I am a big fan of high contrast displays, I miss CRTs. With a projector, I don't think it matters nearly as much though, as room reflections will dramatically lower the image contrast regardless of how good the projector is.

OLED should have very few weaknesses though, it should be top-tier performance in most categories


I do agree that avoiding bad qualities in the image is more important than excelling in one category though. I can't put up with DLP projectors due to rainbows, despite them offering a sharper image with better motion and ANSI contrast than LCoS for example.

My HX900 LCD has terrible viewing angles, which may be a deal breaker for many people, but it doesn't affect me at all, as I'm always right in front when watching it.
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post #155 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 03:09 PM
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Based on what I've seen on the prototype, the pixel structure is not visible at all

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post #156 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 03:18 PM
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Not true. The only thing preventing an economical OLED projector is light output. An OLED projector would work just like a CRT projector, take a 5" or 7" panel and put a lens in front of it. Heck, 3 7" panels might even get the CRTers to move.
The thing is OLED can not that high of a light output. Pushing it to that high of light output will shorten the life of its pixel to the point that it's unmarketable the same thing can be said about plasma.

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post #157 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 03:19 PM
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my major concerns are about the lifetime of OLED screen and how immerse can we be in movie with this gadget, if really look like a big screen away from us. this will appear on CEDIA right?
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post #158 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 03:23 PM
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Oh, and to comment on the person who says that it's like viewing an 85" from 7.5 ft. That's only true if you calculate FOV. I've got the chance to use the prototype at CES before CES was open to the public and to me it doesn't look like a " 750" from 65 ft" but feels like an 85" viewed from 9 ft. The screen feels small-ish.

I use a 9ft screen viewed from 9ft at home and that feels bigger than the image the prototype I tried.

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post #159 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p_sousa View Post
my major concerns are about the lifetime of OLED screen and how immerse can we be in movie with this gadget, if really look like a big screen away from us. this will appear on CEDIA right?
IMHO it's not immersive at all, especially when you play scope movie. At least that's my experience with it.

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post #160 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Oh, and to comment on the person who says that it's like viewing an 85" from 7.5 ft. That's only true if you calculate FOV. I've got the chance to use the prototype at CES before CES was open to the public and to me it doesn't look like a " 750" from 65 ft" but feels like an 85" viewed from 9 ft. The screen feels small-ish.

I use a 9ft screen viewed from 9ft at home and that feels bigger than the image the prototype I tried.

An 85" from 9 feet still sounds pretty good considering that basically an 85" 3D OLED screen

I usually sit 9-10 feet from my 110", so it may not fill my vision as much, but for much better picture quality I think it would be worth it.

Mark, when you go to CEDIA, can you ask if the headphones can come off. I would prefer using these with my 7.1 setup.

I haven't been so excited for an electronic device since I bought my Nvidia 3D setup a few years ago.
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post #161 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 04:28 PM
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I am going to see if I can get a pair to take home for an AVS review. I will see if there is a disconnect switch so that the sound will shut off. The OLED screen is not transparent so I don't see how you could do something to be able to see without taking the glasses off and maybe you can still here outside sound when listening. Say Flight XXX is now boarding or honey, the house is on fire or another AV Science customer is on the phone.

I will see about the head phones and if substituting something else for your ears would be possible. I know they provided the flexibility necessary so you can sit in whatever chair you want to.

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post #162 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 04:34 PM
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Does anyone know if the OLED tech should be able to do a total fade to black? I have a Samsung Captivate OLED screen phone that still has a very faint glow with an all black screen.
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post #163 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 04:43 PM
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Yes Mark, please ask Sony whether the earpiece can not only be turned off but also be detached from the headgear. I will get a review sample but not until November

If the optical illusion is better on the final product (read: can simulate 9ft 21:9 screen viewed from 9ft away like my HT), then I'd rather buy 6 of these than a Pana PT-AE7000 + 6 pairs of glasses.

Supposedly, the Canadian MSRP will only be $649 with US MSRP at $599

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post #164 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith808 View Post
Does anyone know if the OLED tech should be able to do a total fade to black? I have a Samsung Captivate OLED screen phone that still has a very faint glow with an all black screen.
It should be (in theory) but both the prototype I saw playing scope movie and Sony's OLED 11" display still show slight glow but at the level about like black bars on a properly calibrated 2nd gen Kuro panels.

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post #165 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 04:53 PM
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Hopefully we will get oled's that will do a true fade to black soon.

One more question: Because this will be 2 images overlapping, will convergence issues most likely come up?
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post #166 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 04:56 PM
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Possibility is always there, but I didn't see any with the prototype. One thing for sure though, I saw ZERO crosstalk in 3D due to the fact each eye sees only one image.

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post #167 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 05:11 PM
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Thanks David. I haven't been this excited about a display since.......I can't remember actually.

So let me recap what the pros of this device are:

1) Highest on/off contrast ratio of any digital display available (possibly even than crt)
2) Far higher ansi contrast than any projector available
3) Best 3d tech available with zero ghosting or flicker
4) Super fast response time (not sure if dlp still faster)
5) Excellent color reproduction
6) No brightness loss in 3d versus 2d
7) No need for perfect room conditions to maximize contrast capabilities
8) Reasonably priced
9) Extremely low power usage

Who can add to this list?
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post #168 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I've got the chance to use the prototype at CES before CES was open to the public and to me it doesn't look like a " 750" from 65 ft" but feels like an 85" viewed from 9 ft. The screen feels small-ish.

Would that depend on individual eye sight - and where the eyes focus ?

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post #169 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 06:08 PM
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I honestly don't know so I can't answer your question

One thing I remember for sure is that you can adjust the unit to the nearest millimetre for the distance between your pupils.

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post #170 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Mark, when you go to CEDIA, can you ask if the headphones can come off. I would prefer using these with my 7.1 setup.

I thought about that myself, since I'm not a fan of Sony supra-aural headphones in general* , especially with questionable front to back adjustability since they are attached to a helmet-like device, and concluded that it would not be advisable to use it this way for the following reason:

If you move your head, even slightly, your visual world stays put while your auditory world pivots. This cognitive dissonance of conflicting spatial information is exactly what causes motion sickness. In a car if you look down at your feet and the dashboard, as you go over a bump or the car turns to the left and there is lateral G force, your visual world stays put but your body senses a profound change. Result? Motion sickness (which has been a gripe against some Glastron products before). People prone to car sickness are always advised to watch the road ahead and the horizon, instead, so any physical motion their body experiences is concurrent with their visual perception, as opposed to divergent.

I can hear it now, "But why would I ever move my head?" Trust me, you move your head by small amounts constantly, but are unaware of it, even while sitting still in a chair watching a movie.


*nothing against Sony , I think some of their circumaural headphones such as the ubiquitous MDR7506 and V6 are oustanding.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #171 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The Zeiss Cinemizer OLED are a similar idea, but are smaller, more ightweight and battery powered as they're designed for portable use. I don't think the image quality is going to be nearly as good as this, despite them also using 720p OLEDs, but they could potentially be the first portable HMD that offered good enough image quality that it would be enjoyable on a flight etc.

I didn't realize Cinemizer is a product introduced in 2008. Apparently last year they upgraded to OLED - but still VGA. This year would be the first 720p Cinemizer. Has anyone tried the older Cinemizer ?

http://www.zeiss.com/cinemizer

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post #172 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 06:33 PM
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I think talking about misconvergence would be a misnomer. It is not like two seperate chips projecting what is supposed to be completely overlaping image on a screen and then viewing that image with your two eyes and discerning incomplete overlap. In this case it would be each eye seing the same image but until the images are adjusted for your inter pupil distance you would see two images instead of one. Once the inter pupil distance is set correctly for your eyes it would be as if you were viewing a flat sign straight ahead with two eyes. Your thoughts?

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post #173 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 06:41 PM
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Mostly because of their smaller and lighter design, I find the Zeiss markedly more interesting.


The fact that they have a head tracking option doesn't hurt either.

I would assume the optical engines and panels are the same as the Sony's.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #174 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 06:53 PM
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I'm pretty excited about this. I currently use a Sharp 12k mkII and a pair of headphones for gaming as I don't like wasting bulb/calibration on the RS35 for gaming and the wifey doesn't appreciate grenades and gunfire blasting in the theater at 3AM. This thing looks like it would be awesome. This would get me 3D and a better gaming experience for cheap. Even buying an extra pair or two would be cheaper than buying a halfway decent projector to get 3D and would be a helluva lot easier than trying to take my two sharps and making a passive dual projector system.

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post #175 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I think talking about misconvergence would be a misnomer. It is not like two seperate chips projecting what is supposed to be completely overlaping image on a screen and then viewing that image with your two eyes and discerning incomplete overlap. In this case it would be each eye seing the same image but until the images are adjusted for your inter pupil distance you would see two images instead of one. Once the inter pupil distance is set correctly for your eyes it would be as if you were viewing a flat sign straight ahead with two eyes. Your thoughts?

not necessarily, some people have their one eye see an object slightly higher/lower than the other eye. In the real world, after a few seconds (or a few minutes when their eyes are tired) the image they'll see will be "self levelling". However, I don't know whether this will be the case with HMD.

I don't have that level difference problem with my vision so I can't say whether it'll be a problem or not. I know for sure, however, there is no vertical image adjustment on the Sony HMD, only pupil distance adjustment.

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post #176 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I thought about that myself, since I'm not a fan of Sony supra-aural headphones in general* , especially with questionable front to back adjustability since they are attached to a helmet-like device, and concluded that it would not be advisable to use it this way for the following reason:

If you move your head, even slightly, your visual world stays put while your auditory world pivots. This cognitive dissonance of conflicting spatial information is exactly what causes motion sickness. In a car if you look down at your feet and the dashboard, as you go over a bump or the car turns to the left and there is lateral G force, your visual world stays put but your body senses a profound change. Result? Motion sickness (which has been a gripe against some Glastron products before). People prone to car sickness are always advised to watch the road ahead and the horizon, instead, so any physical motion their body experiences is concurrent with their visual perception, as opposed to divergent.

I can hear it now, "But why would I ever move my head?" Trust me, you move your head by small amounts constantly, but are unaware of it, even while sitting still in a chair watching a movie.


*nothing against Sony , I think their circumaural headphones such as the ubiquitous MDR7506 and V6 are oustanding.

I would think that adding a subwoofer wouldn't be an issue for sound below 100hz r so since to the human ear it would be non-directional?
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post #177 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I thought about that myself, since I'm not a fan of Sony supra-aural headphones in general* , especially with questionable front to back adjustability since they are attached to a helmet-like device, and concluded that it would not be advisable

They are adjustable. The earpieces can slide back and forth.

Quote:
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*nothing against Sony , I think their circumaural headphones such as the ubiquitous MDR7506 and V6 are oustanding.

None of Sony's headphones seem to measure all that well. InnerFidelity doesn't have measurements from the 7506, but they do have measurements from the newer 7509.

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I didn't realize Cinemizer is a product introduced in 2008. Apparently last year they upgraded to OLED - but still VGA. This year would be the first 720p Cinemizer. Has anyone tried the older Cinemizer ?

I was not aware that the current version used OLED, are you sure? They have been showing a prototype for a year or two now. As I've said already though, the Cinemizer is the best portable experience. It won't compare to the HMZ-T1 for at-home viewing.

Quote:
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I would assume the optical engines and panels are the same as the Sony's.

That seems like a terrible assumption to make, considering the virtual image is very different (45" at 2m rather than 750" at 20m) the headset is considerably smaller, they have +/-3.5 diopter adjustments but no pupillary distance adjustment (that I can see) and Sony has talked up how unique their OLED panels are. There's no reason they couldn't have purchased them from Sony, I suppose, but I have no idea what size panel Zeiss is using.

They will be a very different experience, and I would only recommend them if you either need them to be portable (they would be great for travel I'm sure) or the Sony is simply too big & heavy for you.
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post #178 of 2063 Old 09-04-2011, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by johnsmith808 View Post

Does anyone know if the OLED tech should be able to do a total fade to black? I have a Samsung Captivate OLED screen phone that still has a very faint glow with an all black screen.

The BVM-E250 broadcast monitor is black on a FFTB.
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post #179 of 2063 Old 09-05-2011, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

None of Sony's headphones seem to measure all that well.

False, but obviously not the topic of this thread. Start a new one if you want.

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That seems like a terrible assumption to make, considering the virtual image is very different (45" at 2m rather than 750" at 20m) the headset is considerably smaller, they have +/-3.5 diopter adjustments but no pupillary distance adjustment (that I can see) and Sony has talked up how unique their OLED panels are. There's no reason they couldn't have purchased them from Sony, I suppose, but I have no idea what size panel Zeiss is using.

You think there might be multiple 720p HMD/EVF OLED panel factories on the planet?! Not me. Preliminary specs may not be accurate for the Zeiss, but indeed their FOV, by my math, is 31 degrees whereas Sony is about 45. So, yes the optics may not be the same, however depending on if this chip suffers from SDE or FPN, the smaller Zeiss image could be an advantage. A 31 degree image is still within SMPTE and THX guidelines as well as big enough to resolve a 720p image down to the individual pixel.

I can tell you that manufacturers' common claim "Our product even works just fine for people wearing glasses!" is often a lie, so the diopter adjustments on the Zeiss appeal to me. If on the other hand there is no intra-pupilary distance control of any kind, I would assume they are junk for many users. Considering they are a company which knows a thing or two about optics, having pioneered the design of many things that rely on precise intra-pupilary spacing, such as roof prism binoculars, it would be rather shocking to me that they don't have such a setting, unless they have come up with some revolutionary design that truly doesn't need it.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #180 of 2063 Old 09-05-2011, 03:26 AM
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Some have mentioned that they would like a larger field of view. I wonder if these are limited due to the 720p resolution and pixel structure becoming visible. Would be cool once a 1080p version comes out that you can set the field of view much like choosing how close you want to sit to your projector screen. A complete field of view might be cool for gaming. Not so much for movies though.
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