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post #3601 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by turls View Post

Its Mb, not mb.

Corrected, thanks
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post #3602 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 10:44 AM
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Turls. And you challenge me when I have annointed you with the honor of being a video nerd. smile.gif I rest my case.

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post #3603 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 10:53 AM
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Seems like a very low bit rate for 4k...must be one helluva compression algorithm...
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post #3604 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 11:13 AM
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At least the bit length should completely eliminate banding.

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post #3605 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 12:37 PM
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I can tell you lucky US guy´s one thing, here in europe, not even a new 84" X9000 tv buyer, get´s the HDD server with the 4K content mad.gif
The very fine deal and service from Sony is only in US - damn you smile.gif

I will go and watch my lousy, almost 2K, movies and just dream about Spideyman and Angelina (SALT ) in 4K - in my next life, I will be a american biggrin.gif


dj

But Im very excited to hear news from Sony in januar ( CES !? )
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post #3606 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Actually I wouldn't be surprised.
I have sold plenty of HP. It just isn't for me. I have a small screen (only 110 inch D 1.78) and I can't stand to have the screen mateial visable as part of the picture. its me. I want the screen to disappear. Other want additional brightness, for one or two reasons: One they have a screen size too large for their projector unless the screen has substantial gain or they just like as bright as they can get. HP fulfills a need or a want, I have neither that need or want.And 3D, one needs a gain screen for almost any size screen. I can just get by with my size and that will be questionable with bulb age. In my new set up, i will use a HP for 3D. But i watch very little of that anyway since content is rather limited.


I of course haven't had the pleasure of seeing your new (Stewart100) screen, Mark, but it's hard for me to imagine of a screen 'disappearing' more than I sense with my HP2.4.    Of course I'm always willing to be re-educated.     I must say, though, that having ~35 ftL coming off the screen is intoxicating.   With this brightness I can run a 2.4 gamma and still see complete detail and resolution in the dark scenes* (which I couldn't do with my old, dimmed lamp); the dynamism is unbelievable, esp with the immersion of sitting 12 ft from a 12 ft wide screen.     We all have our individual preferences.

 

*Watched 'Casino Royale' again last night, and the Montenegro train scene is just amazing!

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post #3607 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post

Its Mb, not mb.

RedRay content run at (under) 2,5MB/s (Mega Bytes) = 20Mb/s (Mega Bits). Blu-Ray 1080p run at an average of 20-25Mb/s.
1 MB/s = 8 Mb/s
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post #3608 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post


I of course haven't had the pleasure of seeing your new (Stewart100) screen, Mark, but it's hard for me to imagine of a screen 'disappearing' more than I sense with my HP2.4.    Of course I'm always willing to be re-educated.     I must say, though, that having ~35 ftL coming off the screen is intoxicating.   With this brightness I can run a 2.4 gamma and still see complete detail and resolution in the dark scenes* (which I couldn't do with my old, dimmed lamp); the dynamism is unbelievable, esp with the immersion of sitting 12 ft from a 12 ft wide screen.     We all have our individual preferences.

*Watched 'Casino Royale' again last night, and the Montenegro train scene is just amazing!

Its true. You can ask Tom. But its a trade off of you getting size and enough light with the Sony. I had no expectation of the improvement I would get over the 130 fabric. Its a no brainer with my screen size and black pick room. It (HP2.4) is likewise a no brainer with your screen size and room.

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post #3609 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 05:20 PM
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-ODEMAX-Comments&p=1109872&viewfull=1#post1109872

"We have a VW1000ES sony projector hooked up to REDRAY with a single HDMI at the studio playing 4k. It works out of the box."

This is from the Red rep on their forums...

Also,

I like Jeff Meier's summary of Red Ray and what it may mean in a format war scenario with Sony better than what I have read elsewhere:

http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3505

Matt
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post #3610 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 05:32 PM
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That was a question I was going to post. My preorder just went in, $1450 plus $9.95 ground shipping.

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post #3611 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 07:26 PM
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Mark, what did you preorder for 150? Is that a typo and mean you preordered the red ray for 1450?

What am I missing? There is no information about major studio support for it, correct?
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post #3612 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 10:21 PM
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Now that the Redray veil has been lifted, I really don't see any chance of a looming format war, and frankly, by the time Redray launches Odemax, Sony will probably have announced a 4K disc format and will be shipping players. Not to mention the very poor state of broadband in the US… Even with the remarkable bitrate Red is using, 50GB is still too much for the "average" person to download, considering that more than 50% of all broadband usage is capped (most at 250GB/month).

Plus, with no commercial content announcements, no planned retail availability, and a high price point (surprised they ignored the $999 psychological barrier…), they're going to have a really hard time getting the same mainstream acceptance as a next-gen disc format.
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post #3613 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Mark, what did you preorder for 150? Is that a typo and mean you preordered the red ray for 1450?
What am I missing? There is no information about major studio support for it, correct?
i fixed the typo though I think you answered the question yourself as to it being a typo. smile.gif

You are not missing anything. Do you remember the line in Field of Dreams. build it and they will come. 4K cotent will be in short supply over the next year. but I am confident that Odemax will have independent films and shorts etc and I expect more. i plan to get whatever 4K dics player Sony comes out with and to purchase their 4K discs. But like initial Bluray, there won't be a lot at first and many of thosse would be nothing that I would ever watch. So i am rolling the dice a bit on Redray but I am sure I will get useful content from it in March or Apri through Odemax.

i doubt I will actually receive the Redray untiil late February not having ordered until Saturday..

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post #3614 of 10190 Old 12-01-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianMundt View Post

Now that the Redray veil has been lifted, I really don't see any chance of a looming format war, and frankly, by the time Redray launches Odemax, Sony will probably have announced a 4K disc format and will be shipping players. Not to mention the very poor state of broadband in the US… Even with the remarkable bitrate Red is using, 50GB is still too much for the "average" person to download, considering that more than 50% of all broadband usage is capped (most at 250GB/month).
Plus, with no commercial content announcements, no planned retail availability, and a high price point (surprised they ignored the $999 psychological barrier…), they're going to have a really hard time getting the same mainstream acceptance as a next-gen disc format.

They are not trying to launch a compeitor to whatever will be sony's 4K disc format. I expect sony's player to be at least $799 and to wear the ES label.

Exactly how many 4K projector owners and panel owners are there out there and how many will be added by the end of next year. Red is trying to service the film making and commercial theater (small in size) industry. consumers are a very small nitch right now and we are devoid of centent though the damn will be spilling a small bit over the next yet. Redray will help fill the void.

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post #3615 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

They are not trying to launch a compeitor to whatever will be sony's 4K disc format. I expect sony's player to be at least $799 and to wear the ES label.
Exactly how many 4K projector owners and panel owners are there out there and how many will be added by the end of next year. Red is trying to service the film making and commercial theater (small in size) industry. consumers are a very small nitch right now and we are devoid of centent though the damn will be spilling a small bit over the next yet. Redray will help fill the void.

Eh, I'm not so sure about that.

Jarred Land has said that the Redray is their first foray into the "mass market, consumer space," so I think their internal goals might be a little different and farther-reaching than what we're perceiving.

Not only that, but they don't yet have any solutions for the small theater space. A commenter in the forums asked Land how content owners would be reimbursed by theaters for content and he didn't have an answer.
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post #3616 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianMundt View Post

Not to mention the very poor state of broadband in the US… Even with the remarkable bitrate Red is using, 50GB is still too much for the "average" person to download, considering that more than 50% of all broadband usage is capped (most at 250GB/month).
Plus, with no commercial content announcements, no planned retail availability, and a high price point (surprised they ignored the $999 psychological barrier…), they're going to have a really hard time getting the same mainstream acceptance as a next-gen disc format.
For the next 2-4 years, people whom invest in 4K display equipment will also be able to afford the cost of datarates for downloading RedRay movies. An average RedRay 4K movie is about 16GB (just by memory of something said a long time ago.)
The player can be pre-programmed to download your choice of Movie/program while you are at work or sleeping.

4K displays will fall in price very fast, and much faster than the manufacturers wish for. 4K TV manufacturer costs are not much higher than for a HD TV. A 50" 4K TV cost about $1500 in China today.
RedRay players, if they become popular will also fall in price. RED has the advantage of manufacturing these in their own facility in California, so they can take all advantage of manufacturing cost progress.

If we look at Blu-Ray, it took quite a while before (and still struggling) to sell significant numbers.

The RedRay/Odemax system is a combined Home Theatre and Cinema distribution system, with a "side-arm" to post-production environment. So the system have several legs to stand on.
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Not only that, but they don't yet have any solutions for the small theater space. A commenter in the forums asked Land how content owners would be reimbursed by theaters for content and he didn't have an answer.
That is not correct.
Then you have missed out on the (rather heated) discussion in the RedRay+Odemax thread in the red forum about setting up your own commercial Cinema.

It is the Odemax representative Jon Farhat, that answers those questions(not Jarred or anyone at the RedTeam.
Look for the posts with the ODEMAX avatar.

RED has made this very much a complete solution for people who want to compete with the big cinema chains and distribution systems. This will come in the form of the CRIMSON Laser 4K projector with inbuilt RedRay player and the ODEMAX distribution system for commercial Cinema.
The CRIMSON projector is different from the RedRay Laser 4K HT projector.

Red has been a Disruptive company in the film industry, trying to break the gridlock the big corporation have had. Now they are approaching the distribution gridlock of the same companies with the RedRay&Odemax system.
Here is an article from last year that can shed some light on the movie distribution gridlock that also others try to break; Film Exhibitors Getting Into the Acquisition and Release Game will Squeeze Others Out

Here is one of the answers Jon Farhat gave in the RedRay + Odemax thread. This is from page #57 of the thread. He also answers questions on some pages before and after this.
Quote:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90304-REDRAY-ODEMAX-Comments&p=1110408&viewfull=1#post1110408
Quote:
Jon. can you talk to the following:

1. Your box office control systems you will have in place? We have an explosion in small venue theaters here in Portland, OR (an ODEMAX city yes!) these venues opt for smaller 50 seats and serve gourmet food. Beer, etc. Curious how one can track box office with your system. Obviously separate from the Red Ray Player and part of the fee structure?

2. How does one obtain a channel? Say I wanted to buy and install 100 Crimson projectors in 100 Cities to create my own Indie Theatrical Chain via small venue exhibition... (something Ive been hoping to do with this for years)

thanks for your time
1. Odemax supports all current Box Office ticketing systems. RTS, Vista, etc... Odemax offers a streamlined solution and pricing if your venue uses such, thus allowing the theater to create an engagement just like they would now, sell tickets and remit the data and Channel Owners' take.
Odemax will collect the money for the Channel Owner.

If a theater cheats, we have ways of dealing with that. For smaller venues, the Channel Owner is also able to set a 'one-time' up front fee, knowing it's for a multi-seat venue of any size.
They can lock their asset to a NOT VALID BEFORE or AFTER date and time.
They can also use the Odemax account to actually set the exact times of play and even automate the process.

Cheating will happen here and there. But knowing it and when it does, (we will announce ways for the Channel Owner to manage this) is the first step at dealing with it.

Keep in mind, we have built tools that "Build relationships" directly between the Channel Owner/Distributor and the Theater Owner in a way that's never been allowed before. We believe that fairness and true profit incentives on both sides is the best way to regulate this.

2. All you need are the rights to distribute your own, or rights to another filmmaker's movie and you're good to go. Your plan of 100 Crimsons is EXACTLY the type of business model we are excited about supporting with this distribution platform. Let us help you do that!

Here is another initiative, from YouTube that is aimed at helping independent film makers; http://www.youtube.com/yt/space/about-la.html
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post #3617 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 06:48 AM
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So it seems pretty clear that anyone will be able to pay a fee for playback over some period of time for particular content. The question will be what will be the fee?The example says theaters of say 50 seats. Using a model of 50/30/20 that would equate to a cost of say $250 to $350 per showing. Will their be a mechanism for really small screening rooms of say 10 to 12? When I read the foum, I think the pposter was very concerned about the 15 year old code cracker distributing his content for free.

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post #3618 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 06:48 AM
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Cool. You are ordering one of these aren't you?

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post #3619 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So it seems pretty clear that anyone will be able to pay a fee for playback over some period of time for particular content. The question will be what will be the fee?The example says theaters of say 50 seats. Using a model of 50/30/20 that would equate to a cost of say $250 to $350 per showing. Will their be a mechanism for really small screening rooms of say 10 to 12? When I read the foum, I think the pposter was very concerned about the 15 year old code cracker distributing his content for free.

Until we see the details, like how much will it cost to put pixels on my screen vs currently purchasing a blu ray and getting it overnight for 3.99, I cannot get very excited and certainly won't pre-order.

The lack of announcements regarding content, distribution (owning media vs timed lease)' and cost make what I've read so far mostly hype, perhaps to preemptively draw attention away from any pending Sony annoucement?

I want to own the media/license, or, the model has to be reasonable enough (and the cloud library comprehensive enough, in perpetuity), to move to an on demand model like iTunes or Netflix., though even with their purported compression rates, you will have to wait a bit to start watching a movies unless there is a dramatic scaling of our communications infrastructure...
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post #3620 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Cool. You are ordering one of these aren't you?
No.
I will wait for the RedRay projector that has the player inside. I see the standalone player more as a device for people that already owns a 4K projector and TV, and film makers that will use the player to show clients 4K content.
Living in Europe I will take at least a +25% hit on the price of the projector so I hope they will manage the indicated $10K price, though I expect it to be closer to $15K initially.
With expected delays to market and initial backorders on the RedRay projector, I expect we see closer to the end of 2013 before many can get hold of the projector. By then much can have happened as an alternative from the competition.
Not fond of Lcos projector(too "smooth" image), prefer DLP.
But that any DLP projector manufacturers will have Dual Head DLP 4K laser projectors for HT use for a reasonable price, or at all, in the next 2-3 years I see as very slim. The DLP HT projector manufacturers doesn't seem like they do much development, or else there would have been some 4K "noise" by now.

But maybe it is TI that is the hindrance, "sitting on their hands" like they have done for many years now. rolleyes.gif
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post #3621 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

No.
I will wait for the RedRay projector that has the player inside. I see the standalone player more as a device for people that already owns a 4K projector and TV, and film makers that will use the player to show clients 4K content.
:

It is very unlikely you would see a source device intergrated into a projector. It wouldn't make sense.
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post #3622 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 08:23 AM
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It is very unlikely you would see a source device intergrated into a projector. It wouldn't make sense.
The RedRay projectors will have RedRay player integrated, there is no doubt about that. That is very much part of the concept. Also makes it easier to protect material from pirating.
It similar to the new smaller DLP Cinema/post production projector that is being launched now with integrated IMB.
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post #3623 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 12:07 PM
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The RedRay projectors will have RedRay player integrated, there is no doubt about that. That is very much part of the concept. Also makes it easier to protect material from pirating.
It similar to the new smaller DLP Cinema/post production projector that is being launched now with integrated IMB.

If that is the case, seems like an odd concept if their intent is to target the consumer market. I can understand for a pro product.
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post #3624 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 12:52 PM
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Hi folks

Thanks for all the comments and advice in this forum. I just wanted to let you know I have joined he club and my projector will be installed this Wednesday!
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post #3625 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 01:49 PM
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Sony is the only manufacturer of commercial 4k projectors that include the server. all other servers to my knowledge are third party and cost somewhere between $6K and $12K. The Red is a break through here and opens the flood gates at least for independent releases that could never even make it to bluray format. also from the posts on the Redray forum, major releases will be available for licensed screenings in private screenings rooms. i don't expect releases showing in theaters would be made available until after an exclusive screening period for full blown commercial theaters. I expect such cost for a licensed screen to be somewhere between 4250 and 4350 but I am guessing. perfect for a screening by the big boys here who have theaters seating between 12 and 20. Anything else will be a big bonus. I see no reason for Red to include the server withits projector. They will have considerable sell through of the Redray server/player before they ever bring a projector to market and including the server built in would just unnecessarily raise the cost to those who have a sever, theirs or anothers, already..

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post #3626 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 01:57 PM
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Hi folks
Thanks for all the comments and advice in this forum. I just wanted to let you know I have joined he club and my projector will be installed this Wednesday!


Congrats!    And nice to have another 'neighbor' with a 1000.

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post #3627 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

No. I will wait for the RedRay projector that has the player inside.

+1

I'm keeping a close eye on the RED projector -- the quality and price point may be hard to match.

I think these are all very exciting developments, but I have to see Sony's response before I start spending cash. Sony is of great interest because of the 4K content they can potentially provide. With all due respect to the aspiring indie producers in the world of RED, Sony has a 4K version of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA sitting on the shelf that has me drooling.

I suspect this upcoming CES is going to be a doozy.
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post #3628 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post


Congrats!    And nice to have another 'neighbor' with a 1000.

Thanks. Yes, we are near neighbors. I do get up to the Bay Area frequently. I am not making a new screen decision until after living with the 1000 for a while. Maybe I could drop by sometime and see how your screen looks? I am going to use my Screen Research .95 gain, 103" that I used with my former Runco for now. Reciprocity if you are ever in the SLO area.
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post #3629 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by hermosa View Post


Thanks. Yes, we are near neighbors. I do get up to the Bay Area frequently. I am not making a new screen decision until after living with the 1000 for a while. Maybe I could drop by sometime and see how your screen looks? I am going to use my Screen Research .95 gain, 103" that I used with my former Runco for now. Reciprocity if you are ever in the SLO area.


Sure, would be happy to have to stop by to have a look.    Give me a pm when you would like to.   (I'm in north Berkeley, right next to El Cerrito and Kensinton.)

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post #3630 of 10190 Old 12-02-2012, 08:18 PM
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Anyone ever notice the image seeming to stutter when watching non-optimal material? It seems to happen on HD comcast channels as well as HD iTunes videos. I see it more in bright scenes. It seems like it pauses for a moment while it thinks what to do (as if its calculating some numbers). I have tried turning both RC and the iris off but doesn't seem to make a difference. I have never seen it happen on a Bluray.

Also, does anyone know if there is a way to zoom and position the lens with the input signal instead of the green lines?
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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