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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Sony VPL-vw1000
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 05:44 PM 02-21-2013
Obviously, when and if they have 4HD bluray they could come out with an opyion to have that drive instead of the bluray drive annoumced. the fundamental problem I see if content at 4HD comes over the internet it can't be streamed and it will have to be stored inside for playback and there just isn't a lot of storage space for full length 4HD movies. i think that is why Sony is going the server route pending of course 4k optical disc playback capabilty and sources.

anyhow this is turning into a PS4 discussion and gaming, computers. I think its time to take this discussion to a more appropriate forum and thread. I don't really mind the discussion here but it would be a lot more useful and attract other participants elsewhere. typed from my google/email machine..

Ron Jones's Avatar Ron Jones 08:17 AM 02-23-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'm not talking about them tweaking the standard, I'm talking about the HDMI chip inside the console. The PS3 has a HDMI 1.3 port and can do 3D and output 4K photos. They softmodded the chip to allow for such things. There should be more than enough juice to output 1080p native rendered games at 60fps.

Considering there isn't a 4K standard or HDMI standard for this next gen format they will almost certainly need to softmod the HDMI port in the PS4 to comply to those standards.

The technical working group under the HDMI Forum has been developing the HDMI 2.0 standard for about 14 months now and the final approval is expected within the next few months. Given that most of the major CE manufacturers, including Sony, along with the HDMI chip manufacturers (Silicon Image) are active members in developing this new HDMI standard, I wouild not be surprised if the PS4 has a HDMI chip that implements the key HDMI 2.0 requirements, such as supported for the increased data rates, and with the potential to implement the essential functions not implemented in the HDMI hardware with a firmware/software solution. Remember the PS3 when first introduced did not even have a HDMI 1.3 complient chipset and the missing HDMI 1.3 services were implemented in software then much later the essential HDMI 1.4 functions were added to suppport 3D. I suspect this same model will apply to the PS4. I still am holding out there is a good chance the PS4 will work as a player on Sony's upcoming 4K movie service, but this may not be disclosed by Sony until they are prepared to announce the roll-out details for that 4K download service.
BrianMundt's Avatar BrianMundt 04:08 PM 02-28-2013
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 04:13 PM 02-28-2013
The article says streaming and Sony was talking downloading the content, not streaming which implies play as it streams. One idiotic comment says the Redray server is shipping, it isn't yet,
BrianMundt's Avatar BrianMundt 04:17 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The article says streaming and Sony was talking downloading the content, not streaming which implies play as it streams. One idiotic comment says the Redray server is shipping, it isn't yet,

I have a feeling it was just a poorly written article. I've noticed a few other people use "streaming" and "downloading" interchangeably.

But wow... 100GB. That's pretty significant.

For ComCast customers, that's half of their monthly data limit. Thankfully I'm not saddled with a data cap, but still...
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 04:18 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The article says streaming and Sony was talking downloading the content, not streaming which implies play as it streams. One idiotic comment says the Redray server is shipping, it isn't yet,

Depending on how fast your internet connection is you could pull that off. I would bet that the Sony server tests how fast your internet connection is and would let you know how much it has to download first so that you could finish streaming the rest while you watch what was downloaded. This way while you're watching it can finish the download by the time the movie is over. This would be a cool feature. Obviously it gets cooler when your internet speed increases. The faster your internet speed the sooner you can start watching.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 04:58 PM 02-28-2013
If it takes 4 hours, so be it. If I order a blury movie on disk, it takes a lot longer than 4 hours to get. downloading will be no worse than overnight delivery and will cost nothing with a large enough data cap.
thrang's Avatar thrang 05:05 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

If it takes 4 hours, so be it. If I order a blury movie on disk, it takes a lot longer than 4 hours to get. downloading will be no worse than overnight delivery and will cost nothing with a large enough data cap.

Also we do not know if you can start watching while its downloading, so it may not be as bad...
Xank's Avatar Xank 05:12 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Depending on how fast your internet connection is you could pull that off. I would bet that the Sony server tests how fast your internet connection is and would let you know how much it has to download first so that you could finish streaming the rest while you watch what was downloaded. This way while you're watching it can finish the download by the time the movie is over. This would be a cool feature. Obviously it gets cooler when your internet speed increases. The faster your internet speed the sooner you can start watching.

If the average movie is 130 mins long, at 100GB total file size, you would have to be able to stream at 104Mbps. So you'd need a fiber ISP.

The "play when enough video is buffered" strategy is only practical when you're reasonably close to the full required bandwidth. In this case, even if you had 50Mbps Internet service, you'd have to buffer 87mins of the 130min movie before you can start playing all the way through without interruption.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 05:20 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xank View Post

If the average movie is 130 mins long, at 100GB total file size, you would have to be able to stream at 104Mbps. So you'd need a fiber ISP.

The "play when enough video is buffered" strategy is only practical when you're reasonably close to the full required bandwidth. In this case, even if you had 50Mbps Internet service, you'd have to buffer 87mins of the 130min movie before you can start playing all the way through without interruption.

It doesn't need to happen this way. It's just a cool thing to think about implementing. Like Mark said, it's still faster than ordering a disc. This should suffice and satisfy everyone with at least 10Mbps download speed and up.
Xank's Avatar Xank 05:39 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

It doesn't need to happen this way. It's just a cool thing to think about implementing. Like Mark said, it's still faster than ordering a disc. This should suffice and satisfy everyone with at least 10Mbps download speed and up.

Heh. At 10Mbps it'll take you 22 hours to download if you're not doing anything else on the Internet that whole time.

Kind of interesting that at these file sizes, cost of storage starts to become more of a factor. Right now prices are about $60 per TB. You'd be paying $6 to store each movie. Assuming PS4 takes non-proprietary external drives, if you get a 3TB drive, you can hold about 25-30 movies at one time without swapping drives. On the other hand now that everything is cloud based I'm sure you'll be able to delete your local copy and redownload it again later.
BrianMundt's Avatar BrianMundt 06:59 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

If it takes 4 hours, so be it. If I order a blury movie on disk, it takes a lot longer than 4 hours to get. downloading will be no worse than overnight delivery and will cost nothing with a large enough data cap.

For you and I (and probably the rest of the people on this thread), this is an acceptable short-term solution. But it just emphasizes the fact that the future of higher resolution content is disc-based. "Regular" consumers (not people on AVSForum.com...) want immediate video like they get with iTunes or Netflix or Hulu. The prospect of waiting more than a day for content wouldn't fly.

The average US broadband speed is 6.6 Mbps, which isn't great, especially when compared to other parts of the world. Not to mention the fact that most ISPs have implemented a data cap now. Combine that with the fact that fiber is currently cost-prohibitive for telecoms (it would take Google more than 10 years and $140 billion to roll out to the rest of the US, for examine), and you're looking at a long time before streaming content of this size is mainstream. Oh well... I'm fine with a new 4K BD.
scooter_29's Avatar scooter_29 09:32 PM 02-28-2013
Geeze... Sony is once again missing the ball here. Not only will data caps (plus the excessive overage charge) kill this, the reliability of data speeds will make this not feasible. Based on my experience with Comcast, I could see waiting a week for a download and then forking over an additional $20 per movie because I blew my data cap. No thank you Sony...
thrang's Avatar thrang 09:40 PM 02-28-2013
The industry's desire to move away from disc-based distribution is banging ram-horns with their push for 4k displays (and the requisite content...)
BrianMundt's Avatar BrianMundt 09:51 PM 02-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

The industry's desire to move away from disc-based distribution is banging ram-horns with their push for 4k displays (and the requisite content...)

You hit the nail on the head. Many of these content companies want to push new standards to drive new hardware, but cut costs (manufacturing, packaging, shipping, wholesale, etc.) and boost margins at the same time. In cases like this, that plan doesn't take the vast majority of the customer base into account.

I think Sony knows this and is trying to figure out a way to re-sell 4K versions of their back catalogue in the interim and bide time before a disc format is approved.
Xank's Avatar Xank 10:32 PM 02-28-2013
Put things in perspective though, it took more than a half century to go from NTSC/SD to HD, and I'm sure the transition from HD to 4K will take less than a decade, maybe half. Pretty incredible.
turls's Avatar turls 07:21 AM 03-01-2013
So the PS4 will likely be an interim step to 4K because it won't have the new Blu-Ray standard in it, but it likely will do streaming. So that will be for the next gen or a hardware refresh. So if you count Red, 3 different boxes. Makes me want to cancel Red and wait this out a little more.

Don't understand how Sony can be serious about file sizes if Red is a fraction of that.
KRGM1's Avatar KRGM1 07:21 AM 03-01-2013
So what if it takes me a couple of days to download. I have a 4K projector and I really would like to see it reach its potential. At least this is a beginning. I'm more concerned about content and quality than how long it takes to download.
turls's Avatar turls 08:09 AM 03-01-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRGM1 View Post

So what if it takes me a couple of days to download.

[Your ISP]: ummm, hold on a second...
LJG's Avatar LJG 08:41 AM 03-01-2013
Aside from the ISP cap and cost, I don't see a problem with the download feature taking 24 hours, how long does it take to get delievery from Amazon when you order a Bluray overnight?

We are talking Videophile vs Instant access, if you need to see the movie instantly there are plenty of platforms for that now but with less resolution. Also I am all over this for my 2K projector assuming better than Bluray quality
thrang's Avatar thrang 09:07 AM 03-01-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Aside from the ISP cap and cost, I don't see a problem with the download feature taking 24 hours, how long does it take to get delievery from Amazon when you order a Bluray overnight?

We are talking Videophile vs Instant access, if you need to see the movie instantly there are plenty of platforms for that now but with less resolution. Also I am all over this for my 2K projector assuming better than Bluray quality

Technically you are correct. However;

1) Am I streaming everytime I want to watch the title, like current streaming methods?

2) If one can store the downloads, almost no one will have the capacity to keep more than a few dozen titles.

3) Streaming implies instant availability, so psychologically, waiting a day would not work well for many people. So yes, while we might say this is for the home theater enthusiast and not JSP, the reality is there is a push for broad adoption of 4k at all levels of the marketplace, so the expectations will be streaming=NOW.

4) There is flexibility having the media immediately available. There have been plenty of times we started film, only to find one or more of us didn't like it and wanted to watch something different. This takes 10 seconds with my media server, one minute with my Apple TV, and a couple of minutes getting my ass off the couch to change a disk.

5) Enthusiasts tend to want to own their titles I think. Yes, marginal things for the kids or one time viewing I don't mind renting on Apple TV. But I do like the idea of buying Blu Rays to have the highest quality currently available in perpetuity and instantly. Yes, if streaming was quick, you had access to any title at any time, and the video and audio quality was not compromised, streaming would be great

4k right now seems to be begging for physical media. There are too many obstacles right now to deliver any other way.

The only other thought I had was satellite. A new DTV receiver would need to be developed, but could four of five channel's worth of bandwidth be aggregated together to deliver 4k content from the heavens? Its not an answer to the larger need, but it might be an interesting way to break the ice with legitimate 4k content delivery, albeit from a set schedule of titles.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:39 AM 03-01-2013
Optical if it happens is still aways off and content is needed immediately to provide reason to buy a 4K display now. Sony recently gave an interview by its President at a New York museum, reported in Twice today, where he talked briefly about Sony's coming 4K download service and basically side stepped all questions related to the PS4 and its abilities. It is very much a work in progress.
OzHDHT's Avatar OzHDHT 08:33 AM 03-02-2013
Well back to the hardware itself so to speak. Today I ushered in the first day/night screening of my new ST130 2:35 127" wide. I now have 10.5ft max image width of CIH glory at a 11.5 ft-ish viewing distance. I now can say whole heartedly bring on the 4K viewing material! Meanwhile hasta la vista black bars in 2:35/2:40 movies. I've done 3D testing as well. I finally used the 'dreaded' judge dredd 3d to test. I was really surprised. I don't know what all the talk of bad 3D quality was about frankly. It's def no ultimate wave, but fine for an action 3D flick. Over a year of the VW-1000 and it keeps on giving. 1500+ bulb hrs and still well bright for my prime time viewing. Many month of planned and thought out screen upgrade have proved well worthwhile. I really think the 127" 2:35 ST130 is is a real sweet spot for this projector. Truly best of both worlds at a modest viewing distance.Think it's going to be a late night taking viewing to this new scale smile.gif
KRGM1's Avatar KRGM1 01:46 PM 03-02-2013
My lamp went downhill fast after 1500 hrs. After the first 500 hours I switched to the hi lamp mode so I'm sure this shortened the life. Since my lamp blew I ordered a new one from AVS while waiting on my replacement from Texas Tapeworks. I just got an email today with a tracking number for the TTW replacement. It took almost a month but if it is the real deal it was worth it. They told me that it was ordered from Sony. The warranty was only $120 and getting a $700 bulb in exchange will be great and I should still get another one. The new lamp was a huge improvement from the old one I had been watching although I was thinking for a high hour lamp the picture was still good. You only really see the difference once you put the new one in.smile.gif
WilsonL's Avatar WilsonL 02:41 PM 03-02-2013
What warranty did you get
KRGM1's Avatar KRGM1 07:13 PM 03-02-2013
I got the bulb warranty from Texas Tapeworks. I should get the new bulb either Tuesday or Wednesday and I'll let you know if its the original equipment. Here is a link but you have to get the warranty when you get the projector and they are a stickler for following their rules. If you don't keep up with all the paperwork they will deny the warranty.

http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/extended-warranties/television-warranty/bulb-warranty.html?limit=all
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 07:59 PM 03-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRGM1 View Post

I got the bulb warranty from Texas Tapeworks. I should get the new bulb either Tuesday or Wednesday and I'll let you know if its the original equipment. Here is a link but you have to get the warranty when you get the projector and they are a stickler for following their rules. If you don't keep up with all the paperwork they will deny the warranty.

http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/extended-warranties/television-warranty/bulb-warranty.html?limit=all

I've had this lamp warranty on 3 projectors (JVC RS1, RS20, and now Sony1000).    It's the greatest bargain in HT; have gotten 2 lamps on the first two pj's, and now 1 so far on the Sony.    I've bought all the lamps from AVS and gotten reimbursed.


mookie b's Avatar mookie b 10:37 PM 03-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I've had this lamp warranty on 3 projectors (JVC RS1, RS20, and now Sony1000).    It's the greatest bargain in HT; have gotten 2 lamps on the first two pj's, and now 1 so far on the Sony.    I've bought all the lamps from AVS and gotten reimbursed.

$125? What's the catch?
KRGM1's Avatar KRGM1 11:31 PM 03-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I've had this lamp warranty on 3 projectors (JVC RS1, RS20, and now Sony1000).    It's the greatest bargain in HT; have gotten 2 lamps on the first two pj's, and now 1 so far on the Sony.    I've bought all the lamps from AVS and gotten reimbursed.

I wish they had offered to reimburse me. That is what I had done with my previous projectors I had the warranty on. This time they are ordering the lamp for me. When you put in for reimbursement and they saw how much it cost, they probably changed their policy:). As far as I know, there is no catch. They count on lots of people buying the warranty and either losing the paperwork or never needing to use it.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 12:26 AM 03-03-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRGM1 View Post


I wish they had offered to reimburse me. That is what I had done with my previous projectors I had the warranty on. This time they are ordering the lamp for me. When you put in for reimbursement and they saw how much it cost, they probably changed their policy:). As far as I know, there is no catch. They count on lots of people buying the warranty and either losing the paperwork or never needing to use it.

I think you're right, that many people get these lamp warranties and never collect on them.

 

For my Sony1000 lamp, I followed their protocol, which was that they would send me the lamp.   But they then informed me that their 'supplier' did not have this lamp and that I should get it and be reimbursed.


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