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post #7471 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Not correct for the 84" (have not confirmed the smaller 4K's). I have the 84", and when Sony upgraded the panel and retrieved the Dell 4K server we were told to keep the tablet as it is required for use with the X1. I spent about two hours chasing down different tech folks at Sony, looking for (hoping for) a different answer, regarding support for 3rd party control systems. No joy. The Experia tablet is required, as it was with the Dell. I also have the 1000, and will order the 1100 when available. I don't plan to "upgrade" the 1000 as it is currently used only for sports at a different location. Jim

Yeah, I forgot to exclude the 84", but at least they come free. I did say AFAIK.

Mark has indicated that other Sony products also require purchasing their tablet. A pretty sad way for Sony to dump their poorly selling tablets by forcing their 4K customers to buy them if they want to buy and control the puck. That wouldn't be so bad if you had a choice not to buy. Sadly, anyone wanting the upgrade on the 1000ES has to. I just need to look at it like I'm paying $2500 for the upgrade and these other item come free with it. Then consider selling them to recoup some money. And be happy that Sony is a least providing the upgrade to the 1000ES.

This is also not a rant, just a statement of facts.

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post #7472 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Thanks for the links! I can see the improvement in the older titles, especially in contrast, but almost none in Total Recall.

Do you happen to know if the 35Mbps avg cap is a function of BD or something arbitrary arrived at by Sony?

Now, if we can get this comparison for the Mi4K and FMP-X1 4K titles, we could see the differences on our 4K displays and judge for ourselves. I still plan to do an A/B for myself once I get the upgrade.

Commercial bluray disk spec (ie profiles1 through 2) caps the video bit to 40Mbps, and caps the combined audio, video, and subtitles to 48 Mbps. These are maximum's, excluding some buffering parameters which allows spikes for a (very)short periods of time. In practice, I haven't seen AVC encoded blurays encoded at 40 Mbps. I've heard this is because some older/cheaper players have problems with disks encoded near the maximum spec.

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post #7473 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by KRGM1 View Post

Same here.

With the upgrade, you will be able to play 4k60 and 4k30-3 D blurays when the become available. If you don't upgrade, you will only be able to play 4k30 blurays.

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post #7474 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

People have been ranting for years for Sony to add IR to the PS3. All of those rants have had zero effect on Sony. Several generations have come and gone and no IR.

Yep, requiring folks to buy their Bluetooth remote. I did find another solution back then from Niko that provided IR using a USB dongle and remote. Then I was able to use my Harmony. Another unnecessary expense thanks to Sony's design decisions.

The way I see it, Sony has always do TVs well and now leads the way in 4K displays and these beautiful projectors. It's the rest of their products that are questionable as best in class. Someone else eventually will come along with a better 4K player. It will probably not happen before 4K BD specs are settled, but it will come. I'm betting on Oppo to led the pack in value.

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post #7475 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

Commercial bluray disk spec (ie profiles1 through 2) caps the video bit to 40Mbps, and caps the combined audio, video, and subtitles to 48 Mbps. These are maximum's, excluding some buffering parameters which allows spikes for a (very)short periods of time. In practice, I haven't seen AVC encoded blurays encoded at 40 Mbps. I've heard this is because some older/cheaper players have problems with disks encoded near the maximum spec.

Thanks for the information and knowledge transfer. You learn something new every day.

I guess these Mi4K really are Superbit BDs. Like the earlier Sony DVDs and the advent of BD, I'm hoping their shelf-life is short too.

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post #7476 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

With the upgrade, you will be able to play 4k60 and 4k30-3 D blurays when the become available. If you don't upgrade, you will only be able to play 4k30 blurays.

Yeah, but won't future 4K BDs most likely be 2160p@24 and work just fine provided they're 8 or 10 bit 4:2:0? I think the real need to upgrade is HDCP 2.2 since studios will most likely require that.

I also want the benefit that will be seen from future HDMI 2.0 video cards in an HTPC since they'll be able to output 4:2:0 then.

I think I have this right....

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post #7477 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Yeah, but won't future 4K BDs most likely be 2160p@24 and work just fine provided they're 8 or 10 bit 4:2:0? I think the real need to upgrade is HDCP 2.2 since studios will most likely require that.

I also want the benefit that will be seen from future HDMI 2.0 video cards in an HTPC since they'll be able to output 4:2:0 then.

I think I have this right....

You're right. The current board can play 4k@30, but Studios will require HDCP 2.2 to play it. HDCP 2.2 is the real reason to upgrade.

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post #7478 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

With the upgrade, you will be able to play 4k60 and 4k30-3 D blurays when the become available. If you don't upgrade, you will only be able to play 4k30 blurays.


Only if they are 8 bit 4.2.0 and has to say, I think when or if there are "4K 3D bluray´s" at EDIT : 48/50/60P out to buy ( think years, if ever, IMO ) , the 18 GB HDMI 2.x version will be main stream and we will probely need a new upgrade anyway or a new projector - but WHO knows ? Sony ? ( hopfully )


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EDIT: corrected the frames smile.gif
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post #7479 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Only if they are 8 bit 4.2.0 and has to say, I think when there are "4K 3D bluray´s" at 24P or 50/60P out to buy ( think years, if ever, IMO ) , the 18 GB HDMI 2.x version will be main stream and we will probely need a new upgrade anyway or a new projector - but WHO knows ? Sony ? ( hopfully )


dj

Its reasonable to assume that a 4k blu ray player will downsample 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 if necessary, as well as downsample 12/10 bit to 8 bit.

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post #7480 of 10111 Old 12-14-2013, 11:32 PM
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Can't 10.8GB handle 10-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24? I thought I read that. What about 8-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24 3D?

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post #7481 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Can't 10.8GB handle 10-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24? I thought I read that. What about 8-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24 3D?

Here are the resolutions supported at 10.8gbps

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post #7482 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 12:10 AM
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post #7483 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

Its reasonable to assume that a 4k blu ray player will downsample 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 if necessary, as well as downsample 12/10 bit to 8 bit.





yes, but downsampling off 12/10 bit color to 8 bit can give color banding and is quite visible ( downsapling from 4.4:4 to 4:2:0 is AFAIK not very visible and then probely not a problem )


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post #7484 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Can't 10.8GB handle 10-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24? I thought I read that. What about 8-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24 3D?
[quote


Sorry, yes the 10,8 GB can IFAIK just handle 10- 12 bit 4:2:0 2160p@24 and 4:2:0 2160p@24 3D ( because it can handle 4:2:0 2160p@60 wich is over double bandwidth )

but not 4:2:0 2160p@48/50/60 3D and 4:4:4 / 4:2:2 2160p@48/50/60



dj


BTW. I do to, think that (a Little sadly ) if we get 4KBR it will "only" be 4:2:0, 8 bit, 2160P24 ( where I do belive the 8 bit is the biggest - visual - problem/ restriction -)

Besides the 24 frames versus 48/50/60 frames appears to be a matter of taste - I personally really like the more natural / realistic look with motionflow on (low) even on film - which is a kind of engineered version of 48 frames ( but not completly error free )


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post #7485 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 01:16 PM
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It appears that 10.8GB can handle 8-bit 4:2:0 2160p@24 and also 3D. It can also handle 2D @60. I think that really covers what's required for studio content. I believe that's all we've got with BD, but at 1080p. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think 4K BD will be 4:2:0 and mostly @24p. It's just a question of how many bits.

I agree that the biggest issue is 8-bit vs. 10 or 12 bit. I'm trying to figure out if they can squeeze out 10-bit 4:2:0 UHD@24 for 3D over 10.8G. If so, then that covers 10-bit 2D too. I could live with 2160p@24 10-bit for 2D and 3D.

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post #7486 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 02:21 PM
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New Article just posted on NBC Technology about 4K. They agree sets can be improved but question if 4k is the answer.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/enough-pixels-already-tvs-tablets-phones-surpass-limits-human-vision-2D11691618
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post #7487 of 10111 Old 12-15-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

New Article just posted on NBC Technology about 4K. They agree sets can be improved but question if 4k is the answer.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/enough-pixels-already-tvs-tablets-phones-surpass-limits-human-vision-2D11691618

Projectors aren't sets. Large screen projection definitely benefits from higher resolution.

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post #7488 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 01:10 AM
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Well days of experimenting have paid off. Finally did it, we have a working fmp-x1 down here! In a nutshell, to get it working you must utilise a VPN at router level to get everything working. Simple DNS spoofing does not work. I fortunately have a collection of old routers and was able to go back and install DD-WRT allowing router level VPN. I ended up using UNOVPN as it was by far the easiest to get working. I'm not going spoonfeed those who don't know how to do this as it I really don't have the time. The info is all available online, just ensure that you get a router that runs DD-WRT and a dedicated US VPN service.




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post #7489 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 07:12 AM
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Is the VW1100 upgrade for the VW1000 really needed to fully benefit from MI4K Blu-Ray content? We already have a x.v. color switch in the menu settings of the VW1000 so that would be enough to fully enjoy the larger color space?
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post #7490 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

Well days of experimenting have paid off. Finally did it, we have a working fmp-x1 down here! In a nutshell, to get it working you must utilise a VPN at router level to get everything working. Simple DNS spoofing does not work. I fortunately have a collection of old routers and was able to go back and install DD-WRT allowing router level VPN. I ended up using UNOVPN as it was by far the easiest to get working. I'm not going spoonfeed those who don't know how to do this as it I really don't have the time. The info is all available online, just ensure that you get a router that runs DD-WRT and a dedicated US VPN service.




I'm in the UK - and it's excellent news that it works ok via a VPN - had some doubts Sony might be doing sneaky latency tests or something to stop it working correctly.
To clarify before I or other international users pick up an FMP-X1 though, initial activation and FMP software upgrade also seem to be working ok via VPN?
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post #7491 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

Well days of experimenting have paid off. Finally did it, we have a working fmp-x1 down here! In a nutshell, to get it working you must utilise a VPN at router level to get everything working. Simple DNS spoofing does not work. I fortunately have a collection of old routers and was able to go back and install DD-WRT allowing router level VPN. I ended up using UNOVPN as it was by far the easiest to get working. I'm not going spoonfeed those who don't know how to do this as it I really don't have the time. The info is all available online, just ensure that you get a router that runs DD-WRT and a dedicated US VPN service.

great work, the UnoVPN setup looks straight forward to set up.
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post #7492 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 09:47 AM
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I am curious. Is the lens quality of the new VPL-VW500/600 comparable to the VPL-VW1000ES? Is the image quality identical, close, or lower quality?
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post #7493 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 09:58 AM
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I am curious. Is the lens quality of the new VPL-VW500/600 comparable to the VPL-VW1000ES? Is the image quality identical, close, or lower quality?

No. That is one of the major differences between the two and one of major reasons why the 1000ES costs that much more. Don't think Sony cut the cost in half and kept lens quality the same or close.

Now, with that said, is the lens better than on most other projectors? Yes, and many will find the lens more than adequate, but does the 1000ES have a much better lens? Definitely.

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post #7494 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 10:41 AM
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Ok, 1000 has a better lens..
but Yesterday I saw the 500 on a 4,30 meters screen and.... no video noise even with mid quality blurays!!..(reality creation at 30, noise reduction at minimum level)
I hope the 1000 upgraded/1100 will have the same software upgraded at least regarding a revised version of reality creation..
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post #7495 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Ok, 1000 has a better lens..
but Yesterday I saw the 500 on a 4,30 meters screen and.... no video noise even with mid quality blurays!!..(reality creation at 30, noise reduction at minimum level)
I hope the 1000 upgraded/1100 will have the same software upgraded at least regarding a revised version of reality creation..

RC and lens quality are two separate things. Most would prefer an image that achieves it sharpness through native, optical, means. Yes, the addition of RC to artificially sharpen the image is nice, but having the option to turn it off and still get a very sharp looking image is critical. That is one of the criticisms I have with Sony's HW50ES (and now the HW55ES). Sony basically forces it's customers to use RC to get a competitively sharp looking image on the HW50ES. That shouldn't be an issue with the 500/600ES but the lens quality is definitely a few steps back behind the 1000ES.

My point here is that people seem to be buying into this artificial sharpening, through the use or RC or a Darblet, and mistaking it for creating true pixel delineation (ie sharpness). This is a bad thing and mark my words, companies will use these types of sharpening techniques to save money on future projectors by decreasing lens quality while trying to make you think it's still as sharp as the product with the better lens through the use of RC or whatever each company will call it. We shouldn't allow this to happen. We know better and we should voice our concern.

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post #7496 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 11:12 AM
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Of course lens and reality are different things but when I look at th overall quality of the image,
specially now that we feed these projectors with our blurays instead of ultrahd contents, I can' t bear
too much noise as I saw with 1000 (reality on) and mid, poor quality brs...
a friend of mine even made several presets with radiance with different levels of noise reduction depending on the source material..
with brs like oblivion 1000 is superior in terms of contrast and sharpness but I am just worried of what happens
with mid brs and hdtv... that's why I hope in a revised version of reality creation on 1000 upgraded/1100.
I hope will have the opportunity to make a side by side comparison soon..
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post #7497 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 11:30 AM
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IIRC you can turn off RC and the 1000ES still scales the image. This should have been what you did if you didn't like the video noise you saw with RC enabled. I know what you mean by too much noise. The HW50ES with RC enabled, even on it's lowest setting, gave the image an over processed/cooked appearance. I immediately disabled RC and placed a Darblet in the chain and much preferred the more subtle sharpening it was capable of. Like I said though, the HW50ES needed some artificial sharpening to look competitive with with sharpness. The issue is, when you add a Darblet to something with a better lens, the HW50ES is a big step behind again.

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post #7498 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 03:22 PM
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Called Sony UK PrimeSupport today to get more information about the upgrade. Basically price confirmation and any reason to get the upgrade (as there is no 4K source in Europe) and been told that nothing is decided yet, more information will be available mid January.
Is Sony Europe backtracking? Postpone after a possible CES announcement?
I might just be (over) optimistic but at least I don't see the delay as anything negative.
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post #7499 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfield19 View Post

I'm in the UK - and it's excellent news that it works ok via a VPN - had some doubts Sony might be doing sneaky latency tests or something to stop it working correctly.
To clarify before I or other international users pick up an FMP-X1 though, initial activation and FMP software upgrade also seem to be working ok via VPN?


Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

great work, the UnoVPN setup looks straight forward to set up.


Yes correct. I had to download the upgrade first off. After my initial unlocking of content, the app went a bit flakey, saying the service was unavailable. I ran out of time to go further into last night as I hooked up my normal router an went about sorting some other stuff I needed to do. Today I'll do some further testing. Possibly with another VPN technique to see if it's any better. But at least the first hurdle of geoblocking has been sorted.
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post #7500 of 10111 Old 12-16-2013, 03:46 PM
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Just a few comments. In my opinion and knowing what the Darbeevision algs do, I think it incorrect to call the Darblet a sharpening device or attmpting to use it as such. It enhances contrast resolution and not pixel sharpness or image sharpness. It can add artifacts if set too high though the threshold of where such artifacts become visable will depend on the oberver and the observer knowing what is an artifact. The Darblet brings out more detail by enhancing contrast at contrast transition points. Since MTF is measured as the ability to resolve contrast, I would call it an MTF enhancer rather than a sharpening device.


The problem I see with Sony's RC is that it does not react well with te ranging caused bty most scalers including the Sony built in scaler. If one scales externally with a scaler that does not ring, Sony's RC can actuallyimprove the image without introducing artifacts but its settings must be kept very low. With a scaled non ringing image it becomes quite possible to set the RC at the correct points for R and C (noise filtering).

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