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post #7741 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Nanotech Entertainment has begun to ship their NP-1 4K media player.

Thanks for that. Posted the following on their FB page:
Quote:
Will the NP-1 have an Android app available for Android tablets that will allow the tablet to control the NP-1? If true, can the app use audio and/or video play-list? Same questions for iOS devices.

Does the NP-1 have an IR input so programable universal IR remote controls can be used with it? If so, has URC been provided with the IR codes?

Please respond if you already know the answers.
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post #7742 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

Mark, maybe a good idea ... on the other hand I may end up burning my best hours in low mode and still end up replacing the bulb without ever enjoying the "new bulb" brightness I paid for biggrin.gif

You will never know with one bulb election-hot startup vs low lamp start up. But the more I think about it, the more I bet the large decay in brightness over a small delta in time was because of running it on high initially. I bet running it on low for about 20 hours at startup would decrease the brightness fall off slope considerably.

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post #7743 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Thanks for that. Posted the following on their FB page:
Please respond if you already know the answers.

I have no idea.

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post #7744 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

you will never know with one bulb election hot startup vs low lamp start up. But the more I think about it, the more I bet the large decay in brightness over a small delta in time was because of running it on high initially. I bet running it on low for 20 hours would decrease the brightness fall off slope considerably.

I will certainly give that a try - I can live with LOW for that amount of time as it's still brighter than the old bulb was when I junked it.

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post #7745 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

By RC vs RC/scaling, the first RC refers to RC acting on a UHD or 4K input, correct? I would like to know under the 4K or UHD input scenario, whether the RCs on both machines look different. Thanks

When fed a native UHD / 4K source, the RC processing looks to be very similar, possibly identical between both projectors. it's subtle but definitely makes a bit of difference. I noticed this when looking at the UHD content on the 4K puck. When you turn RC on/off, it's tough to see the difference unless you pay attention to the fine details or crank the settings.
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post #7746 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 12:09 PM
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Sorry to keep pressing. So you are claiming that the basic scaling is better in the 600 vs the 1000? This would be verifiable I suppose by testing each with the RC switched off. If they are the same by some chance, then the only difference would be the way different RCs interact with each. If we assume as you have observed that the RCs are the same assuming the RCs are the same. My guess, and its a guess, is the scaling is the same and the RC is the same. Based on your statement earlier that you prefer the 600 scaling/rc to the 1000 RC scaling either internally or externally there is no possible explanation based on RC/scaling.

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post #7747 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 01:42 PM
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I'm assuming that the reported Lux readings here are due to distance from the projector to the meter at the screen. They seem to be lower than mine.

I took Lux readings using my meter with only an hour on the lamp (Reference 1, IRIS off, D65, BT.709, Bright 50, Contrast Max). Lamp in High mode is 500 Lux (46.45 lumen/sq ft) at the screen which is just over 15 feet away from the Sony lens. I sit around 8 feet from the screen which is a 136" diagonal Carada BW 2.35:1 which benefits from 4K. I use Low mode which measured 349 lux (32.33 lumen). 3D uses High mode. I will try to test every 50 hours using the same meter and update this post. I'm already at 17 hours as I've been playing a lot of BF4 on the big screen. It's kind of addictive. biggrin.gif

12/20/13 Low = 349 High = 500

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post #7748 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 01:49 PM
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More addictive then posting here? smile.gif Happy holidays Steve.

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post #7749 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

All the news that is fit to print appears in this thread.

Nanotech Entertainment has begun to ship their NP-1 4K media player. Orders received today will be shipped in 3 to 4 weeks from now. Orders at the time of their product announcement have shipped already. The cost is $299 and like the Sony server additional storage can be added externally. Reports are that JVC consumer used one at Cedia to feed 4K content to its new 4K in e-shift 3 display machines.

Content is not HDCP 2.2 protected and any 4K display with an HDMI 1.4 port can accept and display it. I ordered one, no charge on your card until it ships. I have absolutely no connection with Nanotech am just sharing what they told me and the fact that I ordered one.

Mark, the NP-1 looks like simple streaming device which might make it ideal for you instead of an HTPC. You have to wait for their NanoFlix UHD channel to materialize in order to view 4K content. I'm guessing that it can view what those of us with HTPC see already from youtube and other demo clips. Those need to be streamed from somewhere (and requires decent broadband speeds). I have zero idea what content will appear on their NanoFlix channel or if the rest of us will be able to view it without buying this Android device.

It differs from the Sony player in that the Sony actually downloads the content and plays it back in 4K; it is not streaming. In addition, Sony already has an extensive library of titles in 4K to offer and more to come.

I did notice this interesting feature that was mentioned for the NP-1 which unfortunately, I don't see Sony mentioning at all. "The Nuvola NP-1 supports current 4K UltraHD video using the H.264 compression, and will be automatically updated with the latest H.265 (HEVC) codecs as they become available."

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and Happy Holidays to all.
Steve

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post #7750 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 02:02 PM
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More addictive then posting here? smile.gif Happy holidays Steve.

I play it at night instead of posting my rants here. biggrin.gif

I wish I could say that posting here saves me lamp usage, but sometimes I post from the home theater. My 1080p Windows desktop upscaled to 4K looks very good and easy to read, so that's still using the damn lamp. Sadly, my eyes can barely make out the text with a true 4K desktop at only 8 feet from the screen. It resolves clearly enough, but I no longer have 20/10. Heck, I need reading glasses if I get too close too. Same for when I fine tune convergence or focus. It sucks to get old, but then again it sure beats the alternative!

Happy Holidays to you too! Stay thirsty my friend!

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post #7751 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Sorry to keep pressing. So you are claiming that the basic scaling is better in the 600 vs the 1000? This would be verifiable I suppose by testing each with the RC switched off. If they are the same by some chance, then the only difference would be the way RC interacts with each assuming the RCs are the same. My guess, and its a guess, is the scaling is the same and the RC is the same. But I get confused because you seem to prefer the 600 scaling/rc to the 1000 RC scaling either internally or externally.

I finally have some time tonight to take a closer look in a direct A/B and will have more info for you later. I'm first checking calibration and especially gamma to make sure they match fairly closely and then take a closer look at the RC.

Source is the mede8ter -> Denon 4311 (passthrough, no processing) -> split output to the VW600 and VW1000.

sony-vs-sony.jpg

Mike, your projector is in good company tonight with it's big brother. Both projectors have nearly the same # of hours... ~ 50. I hope it's ok to burn it in, it's all in the name of science. biggrin.gif
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post #7752 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

I'm assuming that the reported Lux readings here are due to distance from the projector to the meter at the screen. They seem to be lower than mine.

I took Lux readings using my meter with only an hour on the lamp (Reference 1, IRIS off, D65, BT.709, Bright 50, Contrast Max). Lamp in High mode is 500 Lux (46.45 lumen/sq ft) at the screen which is just over 15 feet away from the Sony lens. I sit around 8 feet from the screen which is a 136" diagonal Carada BW 2.35:1 which benefits from 4K. I use Low mode which measured 349 lux (32.33 lumen). 3D uses High mode. I will try to test every 50 hours using the same meter and update this post. I'm already at 17 hours as I've been playing a lot of BF4 on the big screen. It's kind of addictive. biggrin.gif

12/20/13 Low = 349 High = 500

My measurments is with contrast at 90, with contrast at max I think it increases about 80 lux. If you measure 500 lux with the VW1000 15ft away and zoomed out to a 136" 2.35:1 screen you have got a really bright one, if you measure at the screen. If I measure only a couple of inches of the screen the lux increeses very much.

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post #7753 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 02:52 PM
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This isn't a definitive statement, it's just my first impression and a subjective one at that since there is no real way to objectively measure PQ. Everyone has different viewing preferences. In other words, you have to see it for yourself to decide.

I would say in terms of scaling / processing 1080P content, the 4K HTPC is a very close match to the 600's RC. I need to spend more time tuning the 2041 before commenting further.

I also need to spend more time looking at the 600/1000 in a direct A/B split, there are many different configurations I am trying to compare so there is an even baseline between the 2.

The 600 is definitely an impressive projector for it's price.

This is already a partial statement because the difference between the two projectors probably is not so evident!
If you cannot say a verdict yet...
specially if you consider that we have to upscale blurays for a while .. And the full 4k lumagen has to come... When??
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post #7754 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 03:06 PM
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Shortly after production quantities of the 18GBs chips become available I expect. Sample chips should be available to permit design.

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post #7755 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 03:23 PM
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This is already a partial statement because the difference between the two projectors probably is not so evident!
If you cannot say a verdict yet...
specially if you consider that we have to upscale blurays for a while .. And the full 4k lumagen has to come... When??

I can't say a verdict because I am just getting started looking at them closely.. I was mainly discussing a first thought on RC and this may change once I get them both tuned up to D65/Gamma 2.2/ R709 and take a closer look.

Some of the UHD content I've viewed on the 4K media device looks excellent. I've also viewed footage from this prosumer 4K camera:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1002485&is=REG&Q=&A=details

wow do I want one of these.
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post #7756 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 05:49 PM
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which projector are you referring to? I haven't seen any sync issues from either the 1000 or the 600.

I was referring to the vw600. Increased display lag is the price you pay for the improved RC. If you get the chance, maybe you can confirm if you also get the ~100ms lag that other reviewers found on the vw500/600. I would also be curious if the lag is still there when the projector is fed with native 4K content with all optional processing disabled.

I think these days most newer receivers and displays auto-negotiate display lag during HDMI handshake so you may not notice any audio a/v sync issues as long as the delay is within the receivers max buffer size (my Denon maxes out at 100ms).

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Great if you could try this. If not, let me know. Then I will take my HTPC with me to a friend of mine who has a VW500 (but I have to make a 6 hour drive for this smile.gif).
The question is indeed if the specs are made with 1.4a display devices in mind or if it might be limited to 30Hz also when connecting it to a hdmi 2.0 display. If we can get 3840x2160@60Hz work with the DP output of a GPU we can do:

4K madVR JINC3+AR upscaling + SVP! This would require one hell of a HTPC. I think that we will have the advantage that madVR JINC3+AR eats most of the GPU while we can config SVP to NOT USE the GPU. So I THINK with a decent GPU+CPU it is possible.

You're wasting your time. The problem is that these Sony projectors only accept 4:2:0 input at 60Hz. No PC video card or adapter currently available can output that pixel format - only 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 is supported. You will need to wait for next generation cards with HDMI 2.0 support or get a projector with DP inputs that can handle 4:4:4 at 60hz.
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post #7757 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 07:34 PM
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My measurments is with contrast at 90, with contrast at max I think it increases about 80 lux. If you measure 500 lux with the VW1000 15ft away and zoomed out to a 136" 2.35:1 screen you have got a really bright one, if you measure at the screen. If I measure only a couple of inches of the screen the lux increases very much.

Yeah, I don't watch with contrast at max, but at 90. I also watch in low lamp mode. That leaves headroom for when the bulb dims or when watching 3D. Those measurements were taken with the meter center screen in 16:9 100% full field white upscaled to 4K. I'll use the same setup and meter to monitor lamp dimming and keep it consistent. I think the Sony lamp is warrantied for one year (I thought I read that somewhere, but could be wrong). After that, I have a 3 year Mack lamp-only warranty. I've had good success with them in the past with Sony Ruby lamp replacements, so hopefully that will continue should it die or fade rapidly. I'll also get an extra with the upgrade like everyone else. That should last me a while.

Still, I sure hope that these lamps don't fade quickly as that was a major reason I quit being a JVC fanboy, even after they got around to addressing the issue two generations later. They lost me by that point.

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post #7758 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

I was referring to the vw600. Increased display lag is the price you pay for the improved RC. If you get the chance, maybe you can confirm if you also get the ~100ms lag that other reviewers found on the vw500/600. I would also be curious if the lag is still there when the projector is fed with native 4K content with all optional processing disabled.

I think these days most newer receivers and displays auto-negotiate display lag during HDMI handshake so you may not notice any audio a/v sync issues as long as the delay is within the receivers max buffer size (my Denon maxes out at 100ms).
You're wasting your time. The problem is that these Sony projectors only accept 4:2:0 input at 60Hz. No PC video card or adapter currently available can output that pixel format - only 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 is supported. You will need to wait for next generation cards with HDMI 2.0 support or get a projector with DP inputs that can handle 4:4:4 at 60hz.

I'm thinking/hoping that the next Lumagen will handle that chroma conversion. It sure would also be nice if they included a DP port in their next 4K-in model since they're eliminating the analogue inputs. There are a lot of us that have an HTPC. Hopefully, Jim or someone else from Lumagen is reading this thread. wink.gif

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post #7759 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 07:54 PM
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Ebay has just the bulb in the reflector available for the VW1000 that you install in your housing.
It cost 148.00 us.
they come from China, free shipping and a 180 day warranty.
The last I heard, Joerod bought one of these, but never heard back as to how well it worked.
So don't toss your old timed out lamp, refirb it with one of these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Projector-Lamp-Bare-Bulb-for-SONY-LMP-H330-VPL-VW1000-VPL-VW1000ES-/330923684480?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0c96b280
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post #7760 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 08:08 PM
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hey check out this cool light....

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8PHKpLeknIXivk_DHKjmQaC16Iaunqm8byCQG8Ok0bMmdZWMR

good, now forget what I said about RC vs. RC, this test is more difficult than I thought, even in a direct A/B with split source. There were elements of the pre-calibration getting in the way of objectively looking at just the processing each system is doing.

it's critical to match the image as closely as possible. I couldn't get the gamma to match between each model, this took some time to correct. Also, the 600 now has a red push @ 10 - 20 IRE that was not there when it was out of the box. I have to look at this closer.

Now I can compare familiar content and see how it looks. Just using Oblivion scenes, it's possible it's actually the other way around, I am seeing some dithering in the backgrounds on the 600 that I am not seeing on the 1000. RC on the 1000 is at minimum, 600 is set to 10 and they are more close in appearance than I originally thought. more info later.
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post #7761 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 08:36 PM
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The last I heard, Joerod bought one of these, but never heard back as to how well it worked.

Since the explosion, I haven't heard from him either...
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post #7762 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 08:47 PM
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Shame on me for presuming, and Mark, when you spoke of using the Lumagen 2041 for sports but complained you lost frame interpolation in the 1000, it furthered my presumption - but the 2041 only outputs 4k 30p, so it is not useful for broadcast.

Mark, are you watching cable/sat sports at 4k30 through the 2041??? Cannot be....

I will test some blu ray content over Christmas, but I'm bummed I completely missed that spec...well, will try a 729 point calibration anyway...
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post #7763 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 08:49 PM
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Since the explosion, I haven't heard from him either...

The bulb he purchased exploded? smile.gif

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post #7764 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 11:38 PM
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Shame on me for presuming, and Mark, when you spoke of using the Lumagen 2041 for sports but complained you lost frame interpolation in the 1000, it furthered my presumption - but the 2041 only outputs 4k 30p, so it is not useful for broadcast.

Mark, are you watching cable/sat sports at 4k30 through the 2041??? Cannot be....

I will test some blu ray content over Christmas, but I'm bummed I completely missed that spec...well, will try a 729 point calibration anyway...

I have the same question. Apologies if this is obvious and I'm just dumb.

My 2041 throws a beautiful picture when up-scaling a 1080p@24 bluray to 4k@24p. But what do I do with broadcast or streamers that output 1080i/720p @ 60? Right now I just have the lumagen upscale to 1080p@60. I tried sending 4k@30 but was unhappy with the results.

Alex
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post #7765 of 10347 Old 12-24-2013, 11:42 PM
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I am not ashamed to ask anything. That's one of the purposes of the forum. I am not ashamed to be wrong based on improper understanding and not based on a brain gaseous exhaust. My sports come out of the set top box at 720p 60 or 1080i 30. The Sony can't even input UHD or 4K at 60 right now. It is limited to at 4K or UHD at 30. Now what is the display rate? Basically for deinterlaced 1080i to 1080p by the Lumagen and then upscaled to UHD at 30 by the Lumagen there should be no loss of information of visible effect on the display. Is that correct?. Thinking about it. I think not. Now at 720p 60()ESPN) the Lumagen scales it to 4K or UHD at 30 and there DUH must lie the rub. Half the frames are thrown away and I see motion blur and wish for something like motion flow with UHD inputs to make it better. A band aid when stiches are required. So we really need 4K at 60 out of the Lumagen which would require new input and output chips but even then the Chroma subsampling would have to be cut by the Lumagen to 4:2:0 because the projector won't accept 4K 60 at anything else.. Not a good solution either. Have I got it now? For 720p 60 and 1080i 30 native, feed the Sony that and live with the crappy ringing and RC that can't be set accurately. I am staying up late and will have a long talk with Santa about getting an HDMI standard with decent chroma subsampling rates at 4K 60.

Thrang. You gave me I can't be watch at UHD at 30 but that is what I am watching out of the Lumagen and that is what the Sony says I am inputting into it.

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post #7766 of 10347 Old 12-25-2013, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am not ashamed to ask anything. That's one of the purposes of the forum. I am not ashamed to be wrong based on improper understanding and not based on a brain gaseous exhaust. My sports come out of the set top box at 720p 60 or 1080i 30. The Sony can't even input UHD or 4K at 60 right now. It is limited to at 4K or UHD at 30. Now what is the display rate? Basically for deinterlaced 1080i to 1080p by the Lumagen and then upscaled to UHD at 30 by the Lumagen there should be no loss of information of visible effect on the display. Is that correct?. Now at 720p 60 )ESPN) the Lumagen scales it to 4K or UHD at 30 and there DUH must lie the rub. Half the frames are thrown away and I see motion blur and wish for something like motion flow with UHD inputs to make it better. A band aid when stiches are required. So we really need 4K at 60 out of the Lumagen which would require new input and out put chips but even then the Chroma subsampling would have to be cut by the Lumagen to 4:2:0. Not a good solution either. Have I got it now? For 720p 60 native, feed the Sony that and live with the crappy ringing and RC that can't be set accurately. I am staying up late and will have a long talk with Santa about getting an HDMI standard with decent chroma subsampling rates at 4K 60.

Thanks mark. I appreciate your insight and experience, and most of all encouraging us not "too feel stupid" for asking "dumb questions".

I use fios as my cable provider. I don't have the ability to receive "native resolution". I can choose 1080i or 720p as output. I use 1080i since thats more typical of "native resolution". I briefly tried mapiing 1080i input to uhd@30 on the lumagen and noticed some jittering. I didn't try to tweak any settings, Should i revist this?

What about streamers? My roku outputs 1080p@60. Should i try uhd@30?

Alex
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post #7767 of 10347 Old 12-25-2013, 03:58 AM
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Ebay has just the bulb in the reflector available for the VW1000 that you install in your housing.
It cost 148.00 us.
they come from China, free shipping and a 180 day warranty.
The last I heard, Joerod bought one of these, but never heard back as to how well it worked.
So don't toss your old timed out lamp, refirb it with one of these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Projector-Lamp-Bare-Bulb-for-SONY-LMP-H330-VPL-VW1000-VPL-VW1000ES-/330923684480?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0c96b280
VERY interesting! Wonder if the lamp is just as good as the original
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post #7768 of 10347 Old 12-25-2013, 06:36 AM
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I was referring to the vw600. Increased display lag is the price you pay for the improved RC. If you get the chance, maybe you can confirm if you also get the ~100ms lag that other reviewers found on the vw500/600. I would also be curious if the lag is still there when the projector is fed with native 4K content with all optional processing disabled.

I think these days most newer receivers and displays auto-negotiate display lag during HDMI handshake so you may not notice any audio a/v sync issues as long as the delay is within the receivers max buffer size (my Denon maxes out at 100ms).
You're wasting your time. The problem is that these Sony projectors only accept 4:2:0 input at 60Hz. No PC video card or adapter currently available can output that pixel format - only 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 is supported. You will need to wait for next generation cards with HDMI 2.0 support or get a projector with DP inputs that can handle 4:4:4 at 60hz.
Current Blu-Ray content is 4:2:0. Currently a Blu-Ray discs is played by the HTPC. madVR will output it as 4:2:0 and the GPU outputs 4:4:4 full RGB to the Sony. This works fine, so why won t it work?
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post #7769 of 10347 Old 12-25-2013, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BOBCAT View Post

Ebay has just the bulb in the reflector available for the VW1000 that you install in your housing.
It cost 148.00 us.
they come from China, free shipping and a 180 day warranty.
The last I heard, Joerod bought one of these, but never heard back as to how well it worked.
So don't toss your old timed out lamp, refirb it with one of these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Projector-Lamp-Bare-Bulb-for-SONY-LMP-H330-VPL-VW1000-VPL-VW1000ES-/330923684480?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0c96b280

Works nicely as a spare (maybe to use while you wait for a replacement to show up). And who can argue with this type of insurance for the cost? smile.gif

Search or copy and paste-> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com <-to check out my latest Reviews.

Check out these new Lighted Cup Holders:
http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1402680301175
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post #7770 of 10347 Old 12-25-2013, 07:16 AM
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He's baaaaaack!. Heeeere's Joey. Sorry. I have to ask. Why only as a spare, what are the performance issues?

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