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post #811 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

My brightness readings are in line with Randall's and not with Wolfgang's and most other members of this forum who have measured their projctor. I am unconcerned because like any new machine it is possible that some machines won't measure up to a spec, including the brightness spec.

OK, so after all of that what was the lumen value? The big deal is I have a 14' wide screen so my asking is selfish.

Ken and I will be looking tomorrow night.

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post #812 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

... My brightness readings are in line with Randall's and not with Wolfgang's and most other members of this forum who have measured their projctor. I am unconcerned because like any new machine it is possible that some machines won't measure up to a spec, including the brightness spec. Sony ES has a very liberal replacement policy for non conforming ES products with no shipping costs to the end user. I really really like this machine. Really. ...

So is that Randall's 1000 or 1500 number or both?

Will you be exercising the option on the Sony ES liberal replacement policy?
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post #813 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

So is that Randall's 1000 or 1500 number or both?

Will you be exercising the option on the Sony ES liberal replacement policy?

Since Mark is indeed a liberal this would be logical. I don't know, as yet, who they will replace him with though.

Art


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post #814 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:14 AM
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Mark you mention unit to unit variation, but is 25% less brightness just a variation? Thats pretty big.

Is that the bulb only, or something in the unit itself? I.E. if Randall just changed out his bulb would he possibly get one that gives all 2000 lumens?


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post #815 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:16 AM
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I dont see anywhere that I can tweak Reality creation. Where are those settings? It is great for some movies and static images, REALLY sharpening them up and adding detail, but a movie that has film grain is a MESS. For instance, the opening scene of Tron where the dad and son are in his room talking.... HORRIBLE with RC on.


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post #816 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I dont see anywhere that I can tweak Reality creation. Where are those settings? It is great for some movies and static images, REALLY sharpening them up and adding detail, but a movie that has film grain is a MESS. For instance, the opening scene of Tron where the dad and son are in his room talking.... HORRIBLE with RC on.

It's two different settings but I don't see them either..


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post #817 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Since Mark is indeed a liberal this would be logical. I don't know, as yet, who they will replace him with though.

Art

Point taken...
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post #818 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

It's two different settings but I don't see them either..



See page 42 in manual.

"Reality Creation
[REALITY CREATION]
Adjusts the detail and noise processing of images. (Super-resolution
function)
On: Applies detail and noise processing effects.
Resolution: When you increase the setting value, the texture and
detail of the picture become sharper.
Noise Filtering: When you increase the setting value, the noise
(picture roughness) becomes less prominent.
Off: The Reality Creation function is not applied.


W. Mayers advice is to turn it on, and then adjust down to lowest posible setting.


dj
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post #819 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I dont see anywhere that I can tweak Reality creation. Where are those settings? It is great for some movies and static images, REALLY sharpening them up and adding detail, but a movie that has film grain is a MESS. For instance, the opening scene of Tron where the dad and son are in his room talking.... HORRIBLE with RC on.

When you switch Reality Creation to on you will see a small right arrow. Arrow over on your remote and TA DA, you will see the Resolution and Noise Filtering. Click on either one and a slider will show up. Happy sledding. I might not be remember the clicks and arrows but you will see whatever it is when you go to reality creation and click on it or right arrow over. Whatever.
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post #820 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:47 AM
 
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I don't know anything really yet. Everybody including me has had the machine for about 2 days. I need to gather data and then we will see. Right now there are reports of considerable variations. Maybe a new bulb, I really don't know. Right now we need more anecdotal data. I have a feeling that only a few machines will be at issue with this problem but there really is no immediate rush.

I talked with the Sony egineers today and they said to expect 1400 lumens out at shortest throw with Wolfgang's settiing. They couldn't explain how Wolfgang was getting around 2000 lumens nor how some AVS members were measuring 1900. They said 1400 would be normal.
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post #821 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 06:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

See page 42 in manual.

"Reality Creation
[REALITY CREATION]
Adjusts the detail and noise processing of images. (Super-resolution
function)
On: Applies detail and noise processing effects.
Resolution: When you increase the setting value, the texture and
detail of the picture become sharper.
Noise Filtering: When you increase the setting value, the noise
(picture roughness) becomes less prominent.
Off: The “Reality Creation” function is not applied.


W. Mayers advice is to turn it on, and then adjust down to lowest posible setting.


dj

The two sliders can be set to minimum. At minimum there is indeed a chasnge between RC off and on. But the sliders do affect gray scale and if you turn the noise filter up too much the picture gets blotchy. I just can't judge how much to turn Resolution up but the filtering has a point where one can see not to exceed. It is proportional to how high one sets the Resolution control. The resolution control sort of acts like a sharpening control without any ringing but without a good test pattern I really don't have a basis as to how to set it. I think this machine doesn't need any sharpening and the resultant noise that might generate. I did run a test pattern on the main menu sharpness control and set it to 16, after that it rings. I see little if any difference between 0 and 16 so I just left it at 16.
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post #822 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 07:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

Yikes, this is terrible uniformity, center to upper right is 38% difference......for a $25K projector I expect much better. I am only 20% difference on my $5K projector. I am sure not liking these reports so far, lumens low, uniformity problems, convergence problems, red tinge.....

Also those are huge lux numbers, how are you calculating lumens?

Here is the calculation I know:

lumens = (lux / 10.76) * square feet of screen in FEET
now let's plug in your numbers:
First you said an 11' wide 2.35, I will assume you are using a lens meaning your screen and the projected image is 56*132 = 7392/144 = 51.3 square ft
calculation:
434/10 = 43.4 x 51.3 = 2226.42 lumens

if you are using the zoom method it is like 2800 lumens....something wrong with your measurements or I have your screen way off...

My calculations are correct. Your screen area is way off and you divided by 10 instead of 10.76.
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post #823 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 08:05 AM
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Uniformity will change with zoom as well. Typically at short throw, the luminance uniformity will worsen due to the unavoidable characteristics of the lens. The centre will be brighter than the corners.

Nevertheless I would expect uniformity to be within about 25-30% at short throw.
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post #824 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 08:35 AM
 
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I also took measurements at long throw and they were a little better. The short throw measurements also had more lens shift since the projector was on a table even with the lower portion of the screen.

Long throw measurements:

Screen Center 260
Upper Left 175
Upper Right 172
Lower Left 198
Lower Right 194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

I also took measurements at long throw and they were a little better. The short throw measurements also had more lens shift since the projector was on a table even with the lower portion of the screen.

Long throw measurements:

Screen Center 260
Upper Left 175
Upper Right 172
Lower Left 198
Lower Right 194


These numbers are a bit worse than I would hope to see. Of course lens shift can affect things too and I should have mentioned that. Nevertheless at long throw I would expect the 260 down to 195....but the upper part of your screen is surprising. It may be that there is a combination of optical uniformity and panel uniformity together making this worse. I still don't think the uniformity variance would be enough to see it during normal viewing of a movie though...or can you?
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post #826 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

My calculations are correct. Your screen area is way off and you divided by 10 instead of 10.76.

What is your correct screen area?

Looking forward to your assessment of the overall PQ.
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post #827 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 09:27 AM
 
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Picture looks great. I would never have known if I didn't have a light meter. Sometimes ignorance is Bliss!

My screen is an 11 foot wide Stewart Cinecurve AT 130 G3. When I took the near measurements I projected an image on the screen a bit smaller than the screen. I physically measured the projected image on all my tests. The near test was just under 99.5 inches wide and 55 inches tall(going from memory). About 37.6 sq ft.

I also found the very brightest spot near the center of the screen, angling the probe head a bit to find the highest number. Same thing in the corners.
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post #828 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

My calculations are correct. Your screen area is way off and you divided by 10 instead of 10.76.

You are right, I messed up my own math a bit. Sorry, I did state I used your 11ft scope screen as the screen size and I may be way off on that...
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post #829 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

OK, so after all of that what was the lumen value? The big deal is I have a 14' wide screen so my asking is selfish.

Ken and I will be looking tomorrow night.

Art

Will you be checking out a VW1000 on your 14' wide screen? I am very interested in how the vw1000 handle's 12' - 20' wide screens. Has anyone here gone wider than 12' with a vw1000?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Will you be checking out a VW1000 on your 14' wide screen? I am very interested in how the vw1000 handle's 12' - 20' wide screens. Has anyone here gone wider than 12' with a vw1000?



Again, I think Wolfgangs screen are 6 -7 m ( 20-23´) and he has tested 3 !


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post #831 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

Picture looks great. I would never have known if I didn't have a light meter. Sometimes ignorance is Bliss!

My screen is an 11 foot wide Stewart Cinecurve AT 130 G3. When I took the near measurements I projected an image on the screen a bit smaller than the screen. I physically measured the projected image on all my tests. The near test was just under 99.5 inches wide and 55 inches tall(going from memory). About 37.6 sq ft.

I also found the very brightest spot near the center of the screen, angling the probe head a bit to find the highest number. Same thing in the corners.

I honestly don't typically notice uniformity issues...but I still expected better out of this projector. My old IN83 was the worst at almost 45% difference from center to one of the corners....but I didn't really notice it with moving pictures.

Again sorry for my assumptions on your measurements, I should have just asked you what size your image was...those lux values just surprised me as I am typically measuring at my 12' wide 1.78 screen. With that said, we really need to consider the full projected image when calculating lumens for this projector as it is not 1.78 to 1, and the value will go up a little.

Dan
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post #832 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

OK, so after all of that what was the lumen value? The big deal is I have a 14' wide screen so my asking is selfish.

Ken and I will be looking tomorrow night.

Art

Look forward to both of your inputs on this projector.

How many lumens are you getting out of your big SIM2 now? Are you going to trade out your SIM2 for this?
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post #833 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Again, I think Wolfgangs screen are 6 -7 m ( 20-23´) and he has tested 3 !
dj

Could you post a link? thanks
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post #834 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 10:24 AM
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How does one calibrate RGB gains and offsets? I dont see this in the menu. I have never used Image Director but thought that was gamma only?

And is there a service menu?


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post #835 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 10:25 AM
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Of those that have bought the Sony, how many purchased the unit sight unseen?

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post #836 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 10:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

I honestly don't typically notice uniformity issues...but I still expected better out of this projector. My old IN83 was the worst at almost 45% difference from center to one of the corners....but I didn't really notice it with moving pictures.

Again sorry for my assumptions on your measurements, I should have just asked you what size your image was...those lux values just surprised me as I am typically measuring at my 12' wide 1.78 screen. With that said, we really need to consider the full projected image when calculating lumens for this projector as it is not 1.78 to 1, and the value will go up a little.

Dan

No problem Dan. You are correct that I did not consider the full panel and didn't even think about it. I was talking to Mark a few minutes ago about this. I used Normal mode which doesn't use the whole panel. Mark said there is about a 7 percent difference which would give about 100 more lumens or approximately 1600 lumens in near measurements.

I believe I could use 1.24 stretch to get the full panel measurements but I think the percentage difference in pixels would be fairly accurate.


I just checked my Marantz 11S2 for screen uniformity. It faired quite a bit better, I was surprised at how much better. Here are the measurements:

Center 118
UL 116
LL 118
UR 117
LR 117

This makes me wonder about how many lumens I am really getting from the Sony if I am gradually falling off from the center to the sides anywhere between 23 and 33 percent?
Should I calculate lumens from the highest peak on the screen or the lowest?
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To do this one as to set the aspect control to 2.35, normal is 1.78 and makes 7% of the horizontal pixels on the 4096 x 2160 full panel side pixels black. Switching to higher than normal aspects uses the full panel width.
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post #838 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Will you be checking out a VW1000 on your 14' wide screen? I am very interested in how the vw1000 handle's 12' - 20' wide screens. Has anyone here gone wider than 12' with a vw1000?

Yes, I will be looking it on the Studiotek 130 surface.

Art


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post #839 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Of those that have bought the Sony, how many purchased the unit sight unseen?

I did, but the uniformity, red shift, and possible lumen issue have got me wavering.

I will let Sony send me another to try that hopefully has no red shift, and I have ordered a CA813 meter to measure the light output. I bought it based on Wolfgang's repeated numbers of 2000 lumens calibrated. If I can't get that, then the unit will not be bright enough for a 160" wide scope Enlightor 4k, with a real world gain of something like 0.86. I guess I would just scrap my whole "bigger screen, great projector" project for a while until something comes out in this price range that CAN deliver those lumens. Up until this point I have been a $5k - $7k projector guy, so this was a stretch. I REALLY want it to deliver.


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post #840 of 10501 Old 02-10-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

No problem Dan. You are correct that I did not consider the full panel and didn't even think about it. I was talking to Mark a few minutes ago about this. I used Normal mode which doesn't use the whole panel. Mark said there is about a 7 percent difference which would give about 100 more lumens or approximately 1600 lumens in near measurements.

I believe I could use 1.24 stretch to get the full panel measurements but I think the percentage difference in pixels would be fairly accurate.


I just checked my Marantz 11S2 for screen uniformity. It faired quite a bit better, I was surprised at how much better. Here are the measurements:

Center 118
UL 116
LL 118
UR 117
LR 117

This makes me wonder about how many lumens I am really getting from the Sony if I am gradually falling off from the center to the sides anywhere between 23 and 33 percent?
Should I calculate lumens from the highest peak on the screen or the lowest?

Those Measurements from your Marantz represent the best uniformity I have ever seen. But those Marantz machines had very nice optics and good light engine design so I am not terribly surprised. I have to say this makes me wonder about how good the optics and over all light path design really is on this Sony.

The most conservative way to measure lumens is to take an average of 5-9 measurement points across the screen. I do also like to see peak lumens in the center because I really feel that is what best influences our perception of how bright the image is since that is where we often focus.

I really appreciate your input to this as I will be carefully considering all of this before I put my hard earned money into it. This projector will be 4 times what I have ever spent on a projector before and while I know it will not be 4 times better I do have very high expectations. And that kind of uniformity is not what I would expect from this level of projector. I will wait and see what others report.

Dan
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