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post #61 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

To make 4K content successful, they need to bring the price down anyway.

Do they? Remember the old laserdisc days, where we paid $50 for a movie, $100 to $150 for a nice special edition.

There is little 4k content, even for the cinema. But it would be nice to get all the content that is available. Get rid of the chroma subsampling on 4k Blu-Ray (or whatever the format will be called), and put a $50 to $60 price sticker on the 4k content. I'd happily pay that price if they won't constantly screw up mastering of the discs, as this is pretty common now with BD (and was for DVD). That way, they can release screwed up 2k content on regular discs for the mass market.

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post #62 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I dont see, why they shouldnt provide at LEST a 20K:1 native with it ( new and bigger panels = 0,74" ) , they allready did that with the 90ES ( and Im sure with the 95ES too ) and this is going to be their flagship ! ( so I cant really believe, its not going to beat the little brothers in allmost every aspect )

It's true, the VW90 can do it but not at 2000 lumens. Higher brightness usually means less on/off CR. If you look at the professional 4k units or the Meridian one (based on JVC), they're 10k:1 max. They are however brighter (3000 lumens or more).

There is no projector available pumping out 2000 lumens and a native CR of 20K:1. They all have either lower brightness at higher CR or higher brightness at lower CR. Sim2 Lumis (which some always point out as a reference) is only getting 25k1: to 30k:1 with a DI. Turn DI off and you're at around 10k:1 again. Sony and Mitsubishi have around 20k:1, but at under 1000 lumens. JVC is much higher, but even less bright.

Assuming the 2000 lumens is not a marketing number. I really (!!!) hope they improved ANSI CR with the 4k panels and the lens. Lens looks big and expensive, so it should be able to handle it. Over 500:1 would be great, over 600:1 fantastic and if they approach (doubt it) 700:1, I'd put down my name with Sony today to get one.

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post #63 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mr stroke View Post

I would love to see one of these in person.


To anyone here thats seen one in person is the difference between 1080p and 4k that big of a deal? As much of a jump as 480p to 1080p?

That depends on your seating distance and the screen size.

Say for a normal living room seating distance (8-10ft), you will notice the difference between 480p to 720p on screen size around 30-50". For screen size 50-75", you will then notice the difference even between 720p to 1080p. To notice the difference between 1080p and 2160p (4k), you will need a screen over 130" to notice the difference (not to mention that at that point, your angle of viewing is extremely wide). That's why I think 4K is not going to be that much popular in regular TV viewing.

For projector/home-theater that had an 100" screen, you will notice the difference between 1080p and 4K when you are seating within 12'. And for those mid-size screen (100-130), you will notice the difference even at 15'.
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post #64 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Do they? Remember the old laserdisc days, where we paid $50 for a movie, $100 to $150 for a nice special edition.

There is little 4k content, even for the cinema. But it would be nice to get all the content that is available. Get rid of the chroma subsampling on 4k Blu-Ray (or whatever the format will be called), and put a $50 to $60 price sticker on the 4k content. I'd happily pay that price if they won't constantly screw up mastering of the discs, as this is pretty common now with BD (and was for DVD). That way, they can release screwed up 2k content on regular discs for the mass market.

I would be happy to pay $50 for a "good" 4K movie meaning probably no blind-buy or impulse buy.
Look at it this way, if I can pay $20 for a regular blu-ray, and $50 for a 4K copy, and if 95% of the consumer are still using 60" screen or lower.. I do not see how anyone can justify making a 4K version... Now, I admit I do not know how much it cost to make such a copy..but if that involve equipment upgrade and etc, then they probably cannot cover the cost.
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post #65 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mr stroke View Post

To anyone here thats seen one in person is the difference between 1080p and 4k that big of a deal? As much of a jump as 480p to 1080p?

Hard to say, based on resolution only. On a really big screen, yes. But keep in mind 4k content isn't chroma subsampled to death as Blu-Ray is. Blu-Ray (4:2:0) is so artifact infected with this, it's unbelievable.


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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

I do not see how anyone can justify making a 4K version...

Most studios have gone to use 4K DIs of their movies these days. Old stuff is scanned again, in some cases even at higher resolution than 4k. So mastering to Blu-Ray or any other 4k format, would require to have another look at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 as some have requested. The resolution takes care of itself. I don't think it's that expensive, unless they come up with a completely new format.

Even better, when 4k is available, use 4k only and downsample to 2k in the player (if they're compatible). After all, we don't have to watch Avater in 3D, by simply setting it to 2D.

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post #66 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 05:18 PM
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Apparently the VPL-VW1000 doesn't do to well with non 4k material-

Impressions from Digitrends-

Quote:


First, we saw a side-by-side comparison of digital still images projected through both the VW1000ES and a “competitor’s projector.” The idea here was to show the lack of screen door effect and the “obvious difference in uniformity of texture.” The problem is, the differences were not all that obvious. With serious scrutiny, the differentiation was visible, but we couldn’t help but think about how difficult it might have been to see them without extended viewing of still images and the presenter’s fancy “pointing finger” laser pen.

Next, the VW1000ES was put to work upscaling a clip from Resident Evil. We’re pretty sure the rest of the room saw what we saw, since we heard no murmurs of approval. To be frank, it was a pretty terrible demonstration. The film had a monochromatic look to it that lacked depth and the effects of the projector’s motion smoothing processor were both obvious and annoying.

The last clip we viewed was from Sony’s forthcoming film, The Amazing Spiderman. Since it was native 4K content, it was, as you might expect, pretty amazing. Colors were beautiful, skin tone was excellent, black level was top notch and the image had tremendous depth and texture.

So, when fed with elusive 4K content, the VW1000ES delivers the “real theater” experience in spades. But we still think the lack of 4K content makes the projector’s availability a little less exciting, considering its hefty price tag and lackluster 1080p upconversion. Keep your fingers crossed that Sony Pictures delivers on its promise of tapping its 4K library soon.

Let's hope their VP for non 4k content (which would be what you would mostly use it for currently) improves by its December release.
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post #67 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Apparently the VPL-VW1000 doesn't do to well with non 4k material-

Impressions from Digitrends-



Let's hope their VP for non 4k content (which would be what you would mostly use it for currently) improves by its December release.

Yeah lets hope that upscaling demo was an aberration and things improve before release. Would be a real shame and quite puzzling to see Sony screw up the upscaling ability in this kind of product. Comparatively it would be like them screwing up DVD source upscaling in the Qualia or VW100 series, which def wasn't the case. On the other hand I would have thought upscaling tech in the meantime would have gotten much better since those early days when 1080p content was sparse...

I'm working already from this end with my Sony commercial contact who happened to be visiting my office at the exact time I got onto the press release info yesterday. I was able to hand it to him and say please investigate and maybe, just maybe, scratch me off the VW95 allocation list I got him to put me on after the IFA show- that's if I he gets some positive feed back on the local avail/pricing.

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post #68 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 07:12 PM
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Agree with digitrends summation. Sony presentation made sure to remind us that they are leaders in home theater innovation.

Demo was a big yawn for me. Thankfully it was short, or I may have fallen asleep. I own a sony projector and was quite excited for the show, but left disappointed.

Sat in the first row and could hardly tell any difference during the side by side shots (2k vs 4k). Lucky for me he used a laser pointer. Resident evil demo was ok. Brightness good on 187" Stewart Screen. Colors seemed a little off, but I'm not an expert. Spiderman demo was in 4k and looked very good.

Unit is pretty to look at. Also larger than JVC units. Supposedly very quiet. No mention of price. Saw RS65 immediately before and after Sony demo. It was my favorite, by far. Image had amazing depth and clarity. VW1000ES didn't look like 1,000,000:1 contrast to me. Looked slightly washed out compared to JVC.

I currently own Infocus sp777 (720p 3 chip dip) and sony VW60 for a point of reference.

The RS65 is my next projector. I'm guessing it will be a while before we have enough 4k content to make the Sony a worthwhile investment.
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post #69 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Apparently the VPL-VW1000 doesn't do to well with non 4k material-

Impressions from Digitrends-



Let's hope their VP for non 4k content (which would be what you would mostly use it for currently) improves by its December release.

must as well spend 10% of the $$$ to buy a HW30 for 1080p material
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post #70 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

And you know that, because you've already done a comparison... right?

--Compare with what? It is already in the specs...Fake 4K and It will not be compatible with the native 4k source if/when they become available.
Please read this post again in two years after CEDIA 2013 after seeing the native 4K projectors under $5k.

Short lived? Laserdisc was around for 20 years and that's what you call short lived? How long does a format have to stick around for you, so it's not short lived? DVD was short lived as well and so will Blu-Ray be.

--I meant the consumer market. Laser disc short lived or never caught up with the mainstream consumer market since its introduction to market in 1978. At peak of the laser disc market only captured 2% of the US household (may be more in Japan) especially late 80s to mid 90s. I still have about 200 laser disc titles in my collection and 80% of them I paid $30-$40 each. Yes of course the DVDs have transformed into blu-ray and it will move on to something.

And how do you know the Sony won't deliver the same? I'm a big fan of DPI, the Sims can be good if one is lucky enough to get one without issues or convergence errors (had to go through several Lumis' before I found one to have acceptable convergence and the Mico 50 had crazy CA and something wasn't right with the lens, second one was ok tho). Let's wait and see how it performs, then come to a conclusion.

--As a previous owner of two great Sony CRTs for more than 12 years, I have no doubt that Sony's ability to deliver. My point is what their offering for $30k price point to the consumer market. I would have been the first customer if Sony could have released this projector for $10k with the following features instead;
2000 lumens, native 2.35 (switchable to 16:9), decent CR, AR lens memory.
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post #71 of 10406 Old 09-08-2011, 11:40 PM
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http://www.hometheater.com/content/s...-vw1000es-demo

Here some more impressions from HomeTheater.com. They say the poor performance of the non 4k material might of been due to the file used? Time will soon tell-

Quote:


At yesterday's Sony press conference, the company didn't demonstrate the new VPL-VW1000ES 4K projector—that had to wait until this morning at Sony's booth on a Stewart Ultramatte 150 screen measuring 180 inches diagonally. As with most Sony presentations, this one was mostly talking and not much demo material, but that material was worth the wait—except for the first clip, which was from Resident Evil at 1080p upconverted to 4K. The clip exhibited severe banding and solarization, which I learned was due to sourcing and processing issues, not the projector. (The original file was 16-bit, which was truncated to 10-bit in the server and then 8-bit for HDMI to the projector.) Also, this clip was projected using Motionflow frame interpolation, which I don't mind, but Tom Norton objected to that more than the banding.

By contrast, the trailer for The Amazing Spider-Man due next year was in native 4K from the server, and it looked, well, amazing. Detail was stunning, and the blacks were better than yesterday's showing of the same clip from the Sony 4K digital-cinema projector. After the formal presentation, I confirmed that the VW1000ES can indeed accept a 4K signal over a single HDMI 1.4 connection. Of course, that won't help most consumers see native 4K content, which will be nonexistent for at least a couple of years to come.

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post #72 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Only if the brightness change leaves color temperature alone. Otherwise colours/gamma degrade and recalibration is needed again and again. I hate that.
If one calibration would last for 2000 hours and ends with 70% brightness starting at 2000 Lumen calibrated I could warm up to this projector.

This is not going to happen and you know it

But then which projector is offering what you are asking for at a reasonably high (>1500 Lumen) light output and with good colors?

Oh, and ideally with 4k panels

The way I see it Sony has already tackled a few issues that could have been expected from their new 4k unit for home theaters which is native on/off CR, light output and the ability to accept a 4k source, so far I am impressed.

I am more bothered by the lack of 4k content then by the use of a UHP lamp, hopefully Sony really comes out with some kind of 4k movie content for the home. And hopefully that 4k format will not a complete niche product like the Muse Hi-Vision Discs back in the day!
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post #73 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

Weird colors? On which projectors? Reviews I've read of the Sim2 have said that it can be calibrated to real excellence.

You are right, I should have said weird colors or not enough light. At the moment there does not seem to be one projector that has both: Proper colors AND >1500 Lumen light output.
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post #74 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 08:03 AM
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Another nice feature of the Sony 1000 is the very wide throw ratio, from a min of 1.27 (which is great for me) to 2.73.
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post #75 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rraman View Post

My point is what their offering for $30k price point to the consumer market. I would have been the first customer if Sony could have released this projector for $10k with the following features instead;
2000 lumens, native 2.35 (switchable to 16:9), decent CR, AR lens memory.

Well, it is rated 2000 lumens. Native scope with 4k would be a niche product in a niche market. I wouldn't worry too much about it tho, Zooming in the high end market (Barco, DPI) works very well, better than when it's done in the <$10k range. The lenses are completely different beasts and usually don't have the drawbacks of the cheaper lenses.

What's decent CR for you? Given that the best we can buy right now in the consumer market when looking at around 2000 lumens is 10k:1 on/off, I wouldn't say the Sony is doing so bad (if it's true what they state). The cheapest to deliver that is the Sim2 Uno, which is over $20k as well. Are you sure it does not have AR lens memory? If not that would be unfortunate, but not a big deal for me. I'd personally handle it via a videoprocessor and rs232 control of the projector.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Here some more impressions from HomeTheater.com. They say the poor performance of the non 4k material might of been due to the file used? Time will soon tell-

Could very well be the case. The lack of depth can't be explained by the upscaling, unless something goes really, really wrong there. One can always argue scaling quality, but I doubt what they describe is due to scaling only.



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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Another nice feature of the Sony 1000 is the very wide throw ratio, from a min of 1.27 (which is great for me) to 2.73.

That could be a good or a bad thing. Wide throw ratio usually comes at a price of quality of the lens and resulting performance depending on the throw. Lens hope they did this right and the price of the lens itself is around $10k. If that's the case, I wouldn't worry too much. If however the lens is much cheaper, we'll have to wait and see how it performs.

- Stephan
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post #76 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Well, it is rated 2000 lumens. Native scope with 4k would be a niche product in a niche market. I wouldn't worry too much about it tho, Zooming in the high end market (Barco, DPI) works very well, better than when it's done in the <$10k range. The lenses are completely different beasts and usually don't have the drawbacks of the cheaper lenses.

What's decent CR for you? Given that the best we can buy right now in the consumer market when looking at around 2000 lumens is 10k:1 on/off, I wouldn't say the Sony is doing so bad (if it's true what they state). The cheapest to deliver that is the Sim2 Uno, which is over $20k as well. Are you sure it does not have AR lens memory? If not that would be unfortunate, but not a big deal for me. I'd personally handle it via a videoprocessor and rs232 control of the projector.





Could very well be the case. The lack of depth can't be explained by the upscaling, unless something goes really, really wrong there. One can always argue scaling quality, but I doubt what they describe is due to scaling only.





That could be a good or a bad thing. Wide throw ratio usually comes at a price of quality of the lens and resulting performance depending on the throw. Lens hope they did this right and the price of the lens itself is around $10k. If that's the case, I wouldn't worry too much. If however the lens is much cheaper, we'll have to wait and see how it performs.

I am not sure about lens memory. But I didn't see it on the press release. As for CR rating, the reason I said I wanted the "decent" CR without specific ratio as it is a hot topic for the debate and I wanted to avoid it. Currently my heart is set on DPI's 3 Chip DLP Highlite 260 HC with an A lens. After watching CEDIA releases, I think I will be happy for HighLite for another 4-5 years (I have to convince myself). May be down the road I will settle for a low end Epson or Panasonic for 3D content to give bragging rights for my kids.
Meanwhile the 4 year good old RS1 in my old theater will run to until its demise.
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post #77 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 10:36 AM
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Fellas,
I have set up my Paypal account to take your donations. Rest assured it will all go to a good cause when I get my VW1000 in 50 years

In all seriousness, if money was not an issue and I was sitting on a pile of it, I will be getting this baby installed in my theater. But it may be dumb to spend 10% of the value of your home on a projector. So I will first have to buy a 3 million dollar mansion, so keep your donations coming please.
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post #78 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rraman View Post

Currently my heart is set on DPI's 3 Chip DLP Highlite 260 HC with an A lens.

Excellent choice, it's a really good projector. Will give you about 1400 lumens at 15k:1 on/off. Be sure to use a ISCO or at least a Prismasonic HD6k A lens for it, the others don't do it justice.

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post #79 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

Fellas,
I have set up my Paypal account to take your donations. Rest assured it will all go to a good cause when I get my VW1000 in 50 years

In all seriousness, if money was not an issue and I was sitting on a pile of it, I will be getting this baby installed in my theater. But it may be dumb to spend 10% of the value of your home on a projector. So I will first have to buy a 3 million dollar mansion, so keep your donations coming please.

I am sure in 3-5 years time, you will be able to afford this. 3-5 years ago, it is not possible for me to get an JVC RS10.. but these days, you can get a much better one at 3-5k easily.
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post #80 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rraman View Post

I am not sure about lens memory. But I didn't see it on the press release. As for CR rating, the reason I said I wanted the "decent" CR without specific ratio as it is a hot topic for the debate and I wanted to avoid it. Currently my heart is set on DPI's 3 Chip DLP Highlite 260 HC with an A lens. After watching CEDIA releases, I think I will be happy for HighLite for another 4-5 years (I have to convince myself). May be down the road I will settle for a low end Epson or Panasonic for 3D content to give bragging rights for my kids.
Meanwhile the 4 year good old RS1 in my old theater will run to until its demise.

The 1000 does have lens memory. In fact they are advertising that one can do 2.35 via the zoom method (w/o an a-lens) because it's so bright and 4K res. It has 3 lens position (zoom, shift, focus) IIRC.

I also saw Panasonic's 152" diag (about the size of my screen in 16x9 config) plasma. It's 4K, and MAN, did it look nice! MSRP is $500K, though I'll bet you could get 20% off for cash. Now THAT's a good fraction of you house!
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post #81 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 11:59 AM
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PS Another nice feature of the 1000 (if I understood the presenter's description correctly), is that when one uses the zoom method to get 2.35, the 'black bars' that would be projected above/below the pic are electronically blacked out. So this is just like the side black bars on a 2.35 screen with a 16x9 pic: the black bars have nothing projected on them, not even the projector's 'black'.
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post #82 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 11:59 AM
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That new Sony looks lustworthy. But in real world terms (i.e. with 1080p content upscaled), at least these folks weren't too impressed:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cedia/f...-4k-projector/
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post #83 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That new Sony looks lustworthy. But in real world terms (i.e. with 1080p content upscaled), at least these folks weren't too impressed:

Already been confirmed that this is due to the source used. They used a 2k clip in 16-bit which was then converted to 10-bit, then to 8-bit into the projector. They should have just used the Blu-Ray instead.

- Stephan
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post #84 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:03 PM
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Will this projector be capable of accepting a 4k signal via HDMI? What devices can generate a 4k HDMI signal, and where does one get 4k source material?
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post #85 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

PS Another nice feature of the 1000 (if I understood the presenter's description correctly), is that when one uses the zoom method to get 2.35, the 'black bars' that would be projected above/below the pic are electronically blacked out. So this is just like the side black bars on a 2.35 screen with a 16x9 pic: the black bars have nothing projected on them, not even the projector's 'black'.

If they could project nothing electronically, why wouldn't they use that when projecting black normally in the image? My guess is that "electronically" means there is a shutter system than can be electronically moved into place.
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post #86 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:12 PM
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Already been confirmed that this is due to the source used. They used a 2k clip in 16-bit which was then converted to 10-bit, then to 8-bit into the projector. They should have just used the Blu-Ray instead.

There is something called rehearsal or dry run prior to any presentation especially when you are introducing a $30k projector to the world in a major event like CEDIA. Sony is either ignorant or employed incompetent technician(s) for the presentation.
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post #87 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rraman View Post

There is something called rehearsal or dry run prior to any presentation especially when you are introducing a $30k projector to the world in a major event like CEDIA. Sony is either ignorant or employed incompetent technician(s) for the presentation.

Have you ever seen a really good demo at one of these shows? Whenever that happens it's usually a dealer doing the demo, not the manufacturer.

The reason to use this as a source could be they only wanted one source and not switch around. People showing this stuff off, don't usually know how to operate complex equipment. "Play" and "Stop" is usually all they know.

Could also be some genius tried to give the impression that 2k looks terrible in comparison by using poor 2k sources. Bummer they screwed up the demo, but it doesn't really tell anything about how it will perform at home.

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post #88 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Anstey View Post

If they could project nothing electronically, why wouldn't they use that when projecting black normally in the image? My guess is that "electronically" means there is a shutter system than can be electronically moved into place.

That would be cool.. I hope they can have that feature in the lower end model as well..
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post #89 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:51 PM
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Do anybody know, if it can display 1920x1080 without scaling it to 4K ? ( and leave the rest pixels unused/ blacked out ) - 1:1 pixel ?

dj
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post #90 of 10406 Old 09-09-2011, 01:56 PM
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Do anybody know, if it can display 1920x1080 without scaling it to 4K ? ( and leave the rest pixels unused/ blacked out ) - 1:1 pixel ?

dj

It would never support what you are asking because it would toss out 75% of the light and the fill-factor would be <25%. What you are really asking for is whether you can choose a nearest-neighbor scaling algorithm so that all 4 sub-pixels are set to the same value to simulate 1920x1080 exactly. That I don't know.
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