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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Sony VPL-vw1000
mry110's Avatar mry110 11:55 AM 09-01-2014
Can someone PM me with what I should expect to pay for a 1100ES? I just sold my equipment with my house and have to start over (boo hoo ). I am really wrestling with the 600ES vs 1100ES decision.

magicj1's Avatar magicj1 12:07 PM 09-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Im going to replace my VW500/600 to the VW1100 since I really like the image on the 500 so much.
Does the 1100 have a "blank screen" function?


I have it with the 500 via RS232 even though its not available on the remote.
Can I ask what you are using to control via RS232. IRule?
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 01:34 PM 09-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mry110 View Post
Can someone PM me with what I should expect to pay for a 1100ES? I just sold my equipment with my house and have to start over (boo hoo ). I am really wrestling with the 600ES vs 1100ES decision.
I recommend giving Mike G at AVS a call.
giomania's Avatar giomania 11:52 AM 09-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Can I ask what you are using to control via RS232. IRule?
If you need to control multiple RS-232 devices with iRule, see the link in my signature for the Digi PortServer option.

Mark
thrang's Avatar thrang 06:03 PM 09-07-2014
So, way too early for an immediate answer, but I'm wondering about Sony's commitment to current customers to offer an upgrade kit for 1100 owners for full compliance with the new 4k Blu Ray spec? (Deep color and I'm presuming 4:2:2)?

The 1100 is still a current unit (as are our 1000>1100 units) and likely will remain so though a good part of next year, so I cannot imagine they would sell a reference level unit that is not able to leverage the full 4k Blu Ray spec..you'd be buying an semi-obsolete unit knowing what's coming next year.

Where are those 18 gbps chips when you need them?!
OzHDHT's Avatar OzHDHT 07:35 PM 09-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
So, way too early for an immediate answer, but I'm wondering about Sony's commitment to current customers to offer an upgrade kit for 1100 owners for full compliance with the new 4k Blu Ray spec? (Deep color and I'm presuming 4:2:2)?

The 1100 is still a current unit (as are our 1000>1100 units) and likely will remain so though a good part of next year, so I cannot imagine they would sell a reference level unit that is not able to leverage the full 4k Blu Ray spec..you'd be buying an semi-obsolete unit knowing what's coming next year.

Where are those 18 gbps chips when you need them?!
+1

And having just installed a VW500 in my new smaller media room, I've now got 2 current Sony 4K projectors. So I'm def now wondering where they will both be with regards to 4K Blu Ray come late next year. Will the 1100 be saved with an upgrade and the 500 be passed over I wonder? Time will tell I guess..
turls's Avatar turls 08:58 AM 09-08-2014
Assuming the spec is finalized and we aren't fully compatible (that's my understanding at this moment):

Waiting for Mark to chime in as he thought that Sony had enough power to influence the Blu-ray 4K spec to make sure the stuff Sony came out this year was going to be compatible. This is obviously not cool if it is the case that we bought an upgrade board just to work with their underwhelming streaming devices that have tons of issues (check the other threads). I did say previously (I think this was the conventional wisdom here) that the only guarantee we bought was compatibility with HDCP 2.2 and nothing with HDMI. Was hopeful that wasn't the case, but looks we were right.

Need to know how to proceed to make sure our concerns are heard that we invested in obsolete tech just a few months ago for what was for most of us just a hedge against obsolescence in eventual Blu-ray 4k. We heard all the FUD that we needed to upgrade or else we'd be left behind when another upgrade might arrive. I bought into it, understandably, and from what was posted here so did about everybody else that bought these from AVS. Let's see what the truth ends up being.

The writing was on the wall that not having the faster chip in this upgrade was going to be an issue, but my guess was that they would wait for 8k to push all the other stuff that required the higher speed chips.

It might be premature to get an answer but not premature to figure out where we are if the specs are truly final. Ideally two upgrades are offered: one price for 1000 owners who didn't upgrade, and 1000 owners who now have an 1100 that might not be up to snuff with media coming out a little over a year from now.
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 09:03 AM 09-08-2014
Right now all early indications from the insiders I've spoken with point to 10 bit 4:2:0 for 4K Blu-ray with P3 color space. That means your 1100 or upgraded 1000 would be fine. The only hit would be the P3 color space, which requires the inline filter which cuts down on peak brightness levels. When I did my review of the 1100ES I tested for P3 calibration accuracy and it was excellent. I don't remember off hand what the overall brightness was in that mode though.
thrang's Avatar thrang 09:11 AM 09-08-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Right now all early indications from the insiders I've spoken with point to 10 bit 4:2:0 for 4K Blu-ray with P3 color space. That means your 1100 or upgraded 1000 would be fine. The only hit would be the P3 color space, which requires the inline filter which cuts down on peak brightness levels. When I did my review of the 1100ES I tested for P3 calibration accuracy and it was excellent. I don't remember off hand what the overall brightness was in that mode though.

Is P3 synonymous with DCI, or variant that differs from the DCI mode in the 1000/1100? Thanks
turls's Avatar turls 09:21 AM 09-08-2014
Ok, I must have been dreaming I read something over the weekend about 4:2:2 being finalized. I can't find that article now. Thanks for the insight Kris.

Maybe Thrang saw the same thing I saw about 4:2:2...
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:23 AM 09-08-2014
Widening from a rec 709 color space with a bulb technology involves a higher level of filtering for red and green and a reduced light output compared to rec 709.

Has the blu ray standard actually been completely finalized? The latest is it is still be argued in several regards and won't be announced until 3Q next year with then machines and discs appearing out of nowhere by the end of Q4. But I dunno.

We live in an era of rapidly changing technology. This gives one lots to think about and worry about and regardless of the outcome, its a given that something will make one mad and angry and thankfully we have AV Science Forum for a bitching release instead of going to the streets and committing violence.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:29 AM 09-08-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
Ok, I must have been dreaming I read something over the weekend about 4:2:2 being finalized. I can't find that article now. Thanks for the insight Kris.

Maybe Thrang saw the same thing I saw about 4:2:2...
Nothing is final until a standard is announced as adopted. Are we talking 24 fps where 4:2:2 is not an issue or 60 where it is an issue?
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 09:55 AM 09-08-2014
Nothing has been finalized that I've been privy to. I know some people have put out this or that but everything is speculation or heresay until the final specs are formally announced. I've heard 10 bit 4:2:0 DCI is what is looking like the final winner at this point, but that doesn't mean it is concrete. Hollywood and the CE companies are fighting on this because Hollywood wants P3 and CE wants 2020. But Hollywood wants higher than 10 bit 4:2:0 and CE thinks that is good enough. Ugh.
thrang's Avatar thrang 02:53 PM 09-08-2014
Neat site that compares the relative colorspaces:

http://www.noteloop.com/kit/display/...space/rec-709/
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 04:28 PM 09-08-2014
I don't understand how to read their percentages. it appears to use rec 709 as the basis (100%) and everything else is some less space and that can;t be right.
thrang's Avatar thrang 04:30 PM 09-08-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I don't understand how to read their percentages. it appears to use rec 709 as the basis (100%) and everything else is some less space and that can;t be right.
You can click on each one to see the changes.. i read it as 100% Rec 709 (if you've clicked on that) is equivalent to about 58% (or whatever it says, not on the site right now) of the 2020 color space...
medman2k1's Avatar medman2k1 11:44 PM 09-09-2014
On a side note, unrelated to 4k blu and color space, etc

My control 4 dealer could not get into the service menu on my updated(1000 to 1100) projector.

We waited a total of 5hrs on the telephone help line with no answer!!!

Apparently the default one(provided by control 4) does not work does anyone know the password??

Thanks a bunch!

Now back to 4k Blu ray and compatablity...
OzHDHT's Avatar OzHDHT 12:17 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by medman2k1 View Post
On a side note, unrelated to 4k blu and color space, etc

My control 4 dealer could not get into the service menu on my updated(1000 to 1100) projector.

We waited a total of 5hrs on the telephone help line with no answer!!!

Apparently the default one(provided by control 4) does not work does anyone know the password??

Thanks a bunch!

Now back to 4k Blu ray and compatablity...

It should be either this : enter,enter, left arrow, enter or this (generic Sony service menu access seq): Enter, Enter, Left, Enter and Up. I haven't used it for a long while myself.

Out of interest I just had a control 4 system put into a new media room, running a VW500ES and also living room TV/hifi. So far I'm not really big on it at all, it just seems way to dumbed down and locked off for the advanced HT enthusiast to enjoy using. I keep having to get the installers back just to add new sources and macros with their laptop programming software. Plus, the default towards not having replication of factory remotes built in is annoying, particularly when adjusting units like projectors. I keep having to reach for the factory remotes I find to do what I need. The control 4 seems to work great when I got the installers to 'idiot' test it with my much less savvy friend who will have access to the place from time to time. To me Control 4 feels like a 'hotel remote', where they don't want you touching anything in the system other than have the most basic controls at hand. I get more satisfaction out of the Harmony Ultimate system that runs my 1100 and main HT.
turls's Avatar turls 05:03 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by medman2k1 View Post
On a side note, unrelated to 4k blu and color space, etc

My control 4 dealer could not get into the service menu on my updated(1000 to 1100) projector.
Do you mean the IP control (web based access) for the projector? That's all Control4 needs.

I am pretty sure everything my dealer needed to setup was included in the documentation, including login credentials (if you have Composer HE, you can see that in the documentation tab on the driver). You have to use the only about 3 month old 1100ES driver, not the old 1000ES one. I have full IP control of my 1100ES.

Confused how your dealer would not be able to get it to work on the updated board if he had it working on the old. Maybe he is using the old driver and the documentation is outdated. Hope you weren't on the hook for the phone time! After about 3 of those 5 hours, wondering why he didn't fall back on serial control. No credentials required there. Maybe no run to the projector for that.
medman2k1's Avatar medman2k1 06:37 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
It should be either this : enter,enter, left arrow, enter or this (generic Sony service menu access seq): Enter, Enter, Left, Enter and Up. I haven't used it for a long while myself.

Out of interest I just had a control 4 system put into a new media room, running a VW500ES and also living room TV/hifi. So far I'm not really big on it at all, it just seems way to dumbed down and locked off for the advanced HT enthusiast to enjoy using. I keep having to get the installers back just to add new sources and macros with their laptop programming software. Plus, the default towards not having replication of factory remotes built in is annoying, particularly when adjusting units like projectors. I keep having to reach for the factory remotes I find to do what I need. The control 4 seems to work great when I got the installers to 'idiot' test it with my much less savvy friend who will have access to the place from time to time. To me Control 4 feels like a 'hotel remote', where they don't want you touching anything in the system other than have the most basic controls at hand. I get more satisfaction out of the Harmony Ultimate system that runs my 1100 and main HT.
Thanks for the response will try and report back.

Like you, Im not even close to satisfied about control 4 with respect to my HT. For instance, on oppo 93D I cannot play with the darbee sliders. I needed to have my mask and PJ go to different aspect ratios at a touch of a button. It is now a clunky and very intimidating process for my wife. I definetly was very skeptical but the sales rep snookered me in with lofty promises that of course have not been fulfilled. Now its my fault because we X,Y,Z


At any rate I just want the project finished. As of now I need to hit the projector power up and then the control 4.


As a side note, crestron programming was 120/hr with a minimum of 40hrs of programming plus equipment plus install. I passed on the opportunity.
medman2k1's Avatar medman2k1 06:40 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
Do you mean the IP control (web based access) for the projector? That's all Control4 needs.

I am pretty sure everything my dealer needed to setup was included in the documentation, including login credentials (if you have Composer HE, you can see that in the documentation tab on the driver). You have to use the only about 3 month old 1100ES driver, not the old 1000ES one. I have full IP control of my 1100ES.

Confused how your dealer would not be able to get it to work on the updated board if he had it working on the old. Maybe he is using the old driver and the documentation is outdated. Hope you weren't on the hook for the phone time! After about 3 of those 5 hours, wondering why he didn't fall back on serial control. No credentials required there. Maybe no run to the projector for that.

Turls, thats exactly what I need. The ability to turn on the IP control. Perhaps if you PM me your dealer, I can have my dealer call your dealer and they can exchange information. Apparently my programmer feels this is my responsibility to obtain this access. Despite me knowing not a thing about programming. That would be greatly appreciated and help me get this resolved.

Thanks
thrang's Avatar thrang 07:01 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by medman2k1 View Post
Turls, thats exactly what I need. The ability to turn on the IP control. Perhaps if you PM me your dealer, I can have my dealer call your dealer and they can exchange information. Apparently my programmer feels this is my responsibility to obtain this access. Despite me knowing not a thing about programming. That would be greatly appreciated and help me get this resolved.

Thanks
As modern s the 1000/1100 is, accessing its brain is not dissimilar to the monolith imparting intelligence to the first ape - it will happen, but it takes a while.

After setting a fixed IP in the projectors GUI, access that IP address in your "web browser", click on the Setup tab, enter root for username and Projector for password, then click on the Advanced button on the left.

In their (not in front of it now) I think there is something called PJ Talk...you can enter up to four or five IP address that, once saved, no have permission to talk to and control the projector. I believe the interface in this section requires you to enter the IP in four octet boxes, then click and arrow to move the selection to the right list. To delete an address, I think you click on an entry in the list, and select a left arrow...

The reason I put "web browser" in quotes above, is that the http protocols in this projector seems to have been invented around the time of Alan Turing, acknowledging the indecipherability of his work. In my experience, most modern OS's and browsers will not allow you to click on the Advanced options after logging in (some won't even allow you to log in)

The only consistent success I've found is IE under Windows XP (which for me is running as an emulator on Windows 7, which in turn is running on my Macintosh under VMWare Fusion. Go figure). If someone has had better luck with an OS/browser of this century, please post!
turls's Avatar turls 07:07 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by medman2k1 View Post
Like you, Im not even close to satisfied about control 4 with respect to my HT. For instance, on oppo 93D I cannot play with the darbee sliders. I needed to have my mask and PJ go to different aspect ratios at a touch of a button. It is now a clunky and very intimidating process for my wife. I definetly was very skeptical but the sales rep snookered me in with lofty promises that of course have not been fulfilled. Now its my fault because we X,Y,Z
You lost me here. I don't have an Oppo with Darbee but if you have to adjust that every time, that's not what a HA system is for, honestly. I have all kinds of one touch or limited touch macros to do every regular adjustment I need on my motorized masking, PJ, etc. Its very wife friendly. Unfortunately Control4 is a lot about the dealer and programming, and its hard to get a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medman2k1 View Post
Turls, thats exactly what I need. The ability to turn on the IP control. Perhaps if you PM me your dealer, I can have my dealer call your dealer and they can exchange information. Apparently my programmer feels this is my responsibility to obtain this access. Despite me knowing not a thing about programming. That would be greatly appreciated and help me get this resolved.
I can tell your dealer what he needs to know, if he needs more than what I typed. There is no IP control to turn on. If your projector has a static or static DHCP IP address and is on your network, type the address in your browser and enter the credentials in the section that asks for it and you've verified you are ready to go if the Control4 is programmed correctly. I'll PM you my contact info. You're not going to get a hold of my dealer during CEDIA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Out of interest I just had a control 4 system put into a new media room, running a VW500ES and also living room TV/hifi. So far I'm not really big on it at all, it just seems way to dumbed down and locked off for the advanced HT enthusiast to enjoy using. I keep having to get the installers back just to add new sources and macros with their laptop programming software.
Its all about the proper dealer choice and programming. Sounds like you have neither. There is no reason for a truck roll to add a source and macros, that can be done remotely. You can find all kinds of dealers that will do that for reasonable cost remotely. Have you been on the Control4 user forum? I think the other issue is you are comparing what sounds to be a botched one room install of C4 with Harmony. Believe me I never believed C4 would replace Harmony. I'd never go back now.
turls's Avatar turls 07:17 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
After setting a fixed IP in the projectors GUI, access that IP address in your "web browser", click on the Setup tab, enter root for username and Projector for password, then click on the Advanced button on the left.

The reason I put "web browser" in quotes above, is that the http protocols in this projector seems to have been invented around the time of Alan Turing, acknowledging the indecipherability of his work. In my experience, most modern OS's and browsers will not allow you to click on the Advanced options after logging in (some won't even allow you to log in)

The only consistent success I've found is IE under Windows XP (which for me is running as an emulator on Windows 7, which in turn is running on my Macintosh under VMWare Fusion. Go figure). If someone has had better luck with an OS/browser of this century, please post!
I was able to do it in Windows 8.1, I think I had to use IE. I didn't have to go to those lengths. And the section needed for Control4 does not use those credentials, I don't have access at the moment so it might be a different area (I know you have to get to PJ Talk settings like you say) but it is all documented to the letter in the area C4 dealers use for this information. If you can get by the browser limitation you are good.
thrang's Avatar thrang 07:22 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
I was able to do it in Windows 8.1, I think I had to use IE. I didn't have to go to those lengths. And the section needed for Control4 does not use those credentials, I don't have access at the moment so it might be a different area (I know you have to get to PJ Talk settings like you say) but it is all documented to the letter in the area C4 dealers use for this information. If you can get by the browser limitation you are good.
Don't have windows 8, only 7 on Fusion and for-real on a laptop...I won't bother to upgrade for this alone, but if it works, good to know...

Are you saying you do not need to enter the IP address of the C4 controller into the Sony to actually control it via IP?
turls's Avatar turls 07:56 AM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Don't have windows 8, only 7 on Fusion and for-real on a laptop...I won't bother to upgrade for this alone, but if it works, good to know...

Are you saying you do not need to enter the IP address of the C4 controller into the Sony to actually control it via IP?
Ok, no I didn't explain it very well. Control4 is not a DIY system, so if the dealer gets into this setup and RTFM they should have no trouble figuring it out except for the type of glitch you mention (which in fact is ALSO documented for the dealer and might help you and others -- it says use IE (not Chrome or Firefox), use 6,7,or 8, and if you are higher than that you may have to use compatibility mode. No mention of having to use XP).

You have to go to a different address than just the regular IP. You have to add to the end of it.


http:// (ip address of PJ) /service

Those credentials are not the same as what you stated for the main address.

Unrelated note, you can do things like watch the status of the projector (standby, startup, on) and program off those status changes. Try that with Harmony!
OzHDHT's Avatar OzHDHT 07:59 PM 09-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by medman2k1 View Post
Thanks for the response will try and report back.

Like you, Im not even close to satisfied about control 4 with respect to my HT. For instance, on oppo 93D I cannot play with the darbee sliders. I needed to have my mask and PJ go to different aspect ratios at a touch of a button. It is now a clunky and very intimidating process for my wife. I definetly was very skeptical but the sales rep snookered me in with lofty promises that of course have not been fulfilled. Now its my fault because we X,Y,Z


At any rate I just want the project finished. As of now I need to hit the projector power up and then the control 4.


As a side note, crestron programming was 120/hr with a minimum of 40hrs of programming plus equipment plus install. I passed on the opportunity.
You seem to be experiencing the same frustration of the 'dumbed down' / reliance on dealer programming situation I am currently. I extend my dissatisfaction to things like controlling specific pic modes on the projector or manually switching to 3d or accessing the full projector menu. All of those things I find I just pick up the factory remote for. Control4 also struggles when I put it into the programmed '4K media' player mode, often not switching to the dedicated HDMI 2 input on the projector as it should. Very clunky software which was also very arbitrarily pushed by my A/V suppliers for my new place without any alternative systems offered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
Its all about the proper dealer choice and programming. Sounds like you have neither. There is no reason for a truck roll to add a source and macros, that can be done remotely. You can find all kinds of dealers that will do that for reasonable cost remotely. Have you been on the Control4 user forum? I think the other issue is you are comparing what sounds to be a botched one room install of C4 with Harmony. Believe me I never believed C4 would replace Harmony. I'd never go back now.
The dealer doesn't seem to be mentioning remote programming at this stage. I spend most of day with 2 installers two weeks ago going through getting additions and corrections made to the Control4. They are supposed to be giving me a final bill for
Programming, Project management, Cables & accessories and additional install items, I am thinking they'll be looking to hit me up for more costs if I ask them to sort out issues remotely. The reliance on dealer programming of any kind is really something that gets on my nerves. I was told in another thread I could download the Composer Home Edition for the Control4. However, given I'm lucky to be using the system its in for a day or so every 7-10 days when I'm there, I'm not really big on stopping down and working on it the way I would if I was around it every day more or less. The Harmony Ultimate, that I've got sorted to do all I want in that room and works extremely well in the other room with the 1100 - and importantly so simple to reprogram to add or change components. Which Harmony did you last have? I've had about 5 generations and the current one leaves the old ones for dead with its wifi hub and RF capabilities, plus the iphone app works well too.

mry110's Avatar mry110 08:10 PM 09-10-2014
Still struggling to decide between the 600ES and the 1100ES. Is the difference between the two noticeable? Eventually I will be using it on a screen >= 150". The HDCP 2.2 stuff scares me when thinking of purchasing a $20k+ projector.
turls's Avatar turls 02:46 AM 09-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
The reliance on dealer programming of any kind is really something that gets on my nerves. I was told in another thread I could download the Composer Home Edition for the Control4. However, given I'm lucky to be using the system its in for a day or so every 7-10 days when I'm there, I'm not really big on stopping down and working on it the way I would if I was around it every day more or less. The Harmony Ultimate, that I've got sorted to do all I want in that room and works extremely well in the other room with the 1100 - and importantly so simple to reprogram to add or change components. Which Harmony did you last have? I've had about 5 generations and the current one leaves the old ones for dead with its wifi hub and RF capabilities, plus the iphone app works well too.
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I used the One last. If you don't like the dealer model Control4 definitely isn't what you want, and it shouldn't have been sold to you that way. On the other hand, if you haven't even used ComposerHE you aren't really giving it a fair shake.
turls's Avatar turls 02:49 AM 09-11-2014
From the Sony CEDIA keynote via CE Pro:
Quote:
During CEDIA Expo, Sony is also demonstrating its reference standard and entry-level 4K home theater projectors. In addition to their Control over IP operation, the VPL-VW1100ES and VPL-VW600ES have been further enhanced by new calibration software, which takes full advantage of this capability, via a new PC application.
Brilliant, so when do I have a calibration scheduled, today. I guess this software is nowhere to be found yet that I can tell? Hopefully this is something an end user will be able to use?

Of course who would have seen this coming at this point?
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