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post #10891 of 10913 Old Yesterday, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Sandel View Post
I only noticed that the Sony isn't responding to my RS232 connected remote any longer. But of course it might be an option as well that the ports are dead. How can I make sure?
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Originally Posted by Deepsky4565 View Post
Thanks for the heads up. I haven't tried the serial port. Did you get any info on why this happened?
One way to tell was that the IP settings couldn't be changed. Besides that, just try to hook serial/IP up and see if you get any activity. I think IP is easier to tell than serial.

I got no explanation from Sony on why it happened, but they ended up replacing the upgraded board with a replacement.

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post #10892 of 10913 Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
We are still about a year away for uhd bd, so level b is good for now.
On top of this, its been confirmed that there is no Ultra 4K 3D in the new standard, because the chips would be too expensive. So another reason why this projector won't be obsolete any time soon. My guess is if competition does get released, it may not even include Blu-ray 3D. So you might get some new features, that may or may not get used in actual studio releases any time soon, but you might miss out on 3D.

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post #10893 of 10913 Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by turls View Post
One way to tell was that the IP settings couldn't be changed. Besides that, just try to hook serial/IP up and see if you get any activity. I think IP is easier to tell than serial.

I got no explanation from Sony on why it happened, but they ended up replacing the upgraded board with a replacement.
I'll give it a try. Thanks!
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post #10894 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I do wonder how long it would take for broadcast to be in 4k. I always hear that its years away. Since we know hdmi 2.0 level B is all we need for uhd bd, what else do we need more than level b for? I do want a 4k projector with the full hdmi 2.0 for the future but I'll be on to the next 4k projector by that time. I guess I was expecting more from the start. We are still about a year away for uhd bd, so level b is good for now.
This is a real chicken and egg problem. In a few years - when the majority of TVs sold are UHD - then there will be incentive for cable companies/Dish to offer UHD channels.

Broadcasters are in a different situation. Their TV channels are 6 MHz wide, and can transmit ~20Mbps. Almost all of them have 1 main channel, and 1 or 2 subchannels. All of this must fit in the 20Mbps channel. As it is many skimp on the BW assigned to the main channel - so you end up with crap HD.

Now putting aside the issue of compatibility with existing HD receivers, a 2160p30 UHD is is going to be hard to get into less than 20Mbps. So what about the subchannels - do you think the stations are going to just use 1 main channel and give up the subchannels? Does not seem likely to me. So you would end up with a crappy UHD just like we have (mostly) crappy OTH HD.
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post #10895 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
It seems current Sony 4k PJs support HDMI 2.0 Level B. If that is the case the question to Sony is if a board upgrade is possible to bring support to Level A. That is also assuming the 600/350 panels can support 12bit signals.
They won't be upgrading those units. Information revealed a while back indicated it cost Sony a lot of money to create the update for 1000ES owners to upgrade their motherboard. Much of the cost to do this was subsidized by Sony. Considering there are probably more 600ES/350ES owners than 1100ES owners it would be too costly for Sony to do another upgrade. Then again, like I pointed out, these Sony 4K models have enough bandwidth for what the vast majority of UHD BD will be anyways. There's really no point in an upgrade for all three units. If 600ES owners are expecting some sort of upgrade I don't know why this would be. It was pretty obvious the 600ES and 350ES were "early adopter" units. They were released well beyond a year prior to UHD BD spec being finalized. Were they honestly expecting Sony to know everything about that finalized spec more than a year in advanced (4 years if you consider how old the 1000ES is)? I think it would be a bit ridiculous for end users to expect Sony to provide an update for them. Early adopters should know they usually get shafted in one way or another.
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post #10896 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by darksets View Post
Thanks for the explanation. I'm still a little confused by all the possible combinations. In another thread here ("Ultra HD Blu-ray Spec at CES 2015"), Scott Wilkinson writes:

"Also, players must support frame rates up to 60 fps and color gamuts up to BT.2020 with 10-bit resolution."

In your table I don't see a combination of 60fps and 10bit color resolution. You also specify the color standard in a different way so I'm not sure if it translates to the same thing. So I'm still unsure what's going on but I appreciate your and the other knowledgeable people's effort here at AVS, to inform the rest of us.

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You need to do some reading up on the topic. Currently there are literally NO displays (flat panels or projectors) that fully support REC2020 color space. This is a limitation of the current light source and display technologies. Currently displays based on LEDs, OLEDs, Quantum Dot, CCFL, Plasma, UHP lamps, Xenon lamps, and phosphor wheel/laser illumination cannot create a spectrum of light large enough to create a REC2020 gamut and thus none of the displays can be calibrated for REC2020. What this means is that at first REC2020 color gamut will not be used. They will most likely use REC709 or possibly P3 color space for UHD BD. The use of REC2020 is still years off. The same goes for 60fps material. There aren't any films I know of that are 60fps and most of the amateur/consumer grade 4K recording gear out there records at 8bit 4:2:0 so these Sony units will be more than capable to display the content correctly. The 600ES/350ES cannot produce a P3 color space but the 1100ES has a special filter which allows this. So that unit is the most future proof.

The reason why I say you need to read more into it is because I think you're confusing a lot of what the Scott Wilkinson article says because it's also missing a lot of information so people are coming away from it less informed compared to when they first went in. The UHD BD spec will be "loose" in it's specs. A lot of what Scott wrote neglects further clarification. What I mean is that while he says the players need to support REC2020, he neglects to say that it's not the only color gamut supported. It will also support P3 or REC709 either separately or will adopt SMPTE 2086 so the correct color gamut information can be generated for a display that doesn't support REC2020. Then he mentions it will need to support 10bit color resolution, but neglects to say the spec will include support for UHD video anywhere from 8 bit to 16 bit video with support for various chroma subsampling rates at each bit depth.

The format will have "loose" specs because the BDA realizes this format is calling for things that don't exist yet and for things that current displays cannot do. So while Scott's article says certain things those are not the specs of all video that UHD BD will have. It's more than likely, for a number of years, we won't see anything but 8bit (possibly 10bit) 4:2:0 UHD video color graded for a REC709 color space with a possibility in the future for UHD BDs to come out with higher bit depth, chroma subsampling, and content color graded for a larger gamut. This format is no where near as strict as 1080p blu-ray is and they're doing it like this to ensure this format is as future proof as possible.
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post #10897 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The format will have "loose" specs because the BDA realizes this format is calling for things that don't exist yet and for things that current displays cannot do. So while Scott's article says certain things those are not the specs of all video that UHD BD will have. It's more than likely, for a number of years, we won't see anything but 8bit (possibly 10bit) 4:2:0 UHD video color graded for a REC709 color space with a possibility in the future for UHD BDs to come out with higher bit depth, chroma subsampling, and content color graded for a larger gamut. This format is no where near as strict as 1080p blu-ray is and they're doing it like this to ensure this format is as future proof as possible.

This reflects my expectation too, which lead to my decision not to wait and take the plunge. Some say wait a year and you will have displays that "truly" support 4k spec... well the real answer is they will likely support a bit more than the displays of today, and within another year we may see better support yet and so on. Process that may depend on how content rolls out too, i.e. it can take a few years. By the time displays cover most/all of the 4k spec, there will be other innovations on the horizon and these latest displays will not be future proof again. You see my point...


If I had to state one concern about the current Sony PJs, it is about not supporting motion flow with 4k as I really like it when compared to true cinema, and the first 4k movies will likely come in 24fps...
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post #10898 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
If I had to state one concern about the current Sony PJs, it is about not supporting motion flow with 4k as I really like it when compared to true cinema, and the first 4k movies will likely come in 24fps...
This is really a limitation in the current computing power of video processors. It's not so much that Sony chose not to include it, but more along the lines of it's not yet possible with the current processors available.
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post #10899 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 05:25 PM
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This is really a limitation in the current computing power of video processors. It's not so much that Sony chose not to include it, but more along the lines of it's not yet possible with the current processors available.
I am not blaming Sony for that, they are already ahead of the curve in 4k. Regardless, it is a feature I would likely miss more than the rest of the 4k spec.
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post #10900 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You need to do some reading up on the topic. Currently there are literally NO displays (flat panels or projectors) that fully support REC2020 color space. This is a limitation of the current light source and display technologies. Currently displays based on LEDs, OLEDs, Quantum Dot, CCFL, Plasma, UHP lamps, Xenon lamps, and phosphor wheel/laser illumination cannot create a spectrum of light large enough to create a REC2020 gamut and thus none of the displays can be calibrated for REC2020. What this means is that at first REC2020 color gamut will not be used. They will most likely use REC709 or possibly P3 color space for UHD BD. The use of REC2020 is still years off. The same goes for 60fps material. There aren't any films I know of that are 60fps and most of the amateur/consumer grade 4K recording gear out there records at 8bit 4:2:0 so these Sony units will be more than capable to display the content correctly. The 600ES/350ES cannot produce a P3 color space but the 1100ES has a special filter which allows this. So that unit is the most future proof.

The reason why I say you need to read more into it is because I think you're confusing a lot of what the Scott Wilkinson article says because it's also missing a lot of information so people are coming away from it less informed compared to when they first went in. The UHD BD spec will be "loose" in it's specs. A lot of what Scott wrote neglects further clarification. What I mean is that while he says the players need to support REC2020, he neglects to say that it's not the only color gamut supported. It will also support P3 or REC709 either separately or will adopt SMPTE 2086 so the correct color gamut information can be generated for a display that doesn't support REC2020. Then he mentions it will need to support 10bit color resolution, but neglects to say the spec will include support for UHD video anywhere from 8 bit to 16 bit video with support for various chroma subsampling rates at each bit depth.

The format will have "loose" specs because the BDA realizes this format is calling for things that don't exist yet and for things that current displays cannot do. So while Scott's article says certain things those are not the specs of all video that UHD BD will have. It's more than likely, for a number of years, we won't see anything but 8bit (possibly 10bit) 4:2:0 UHD video color graded for a REC709 color space with a possibility in the future for UHD BDs to come out with higher bit depth, chroma subsampling, and content color graded for a larger gamut. This format is no where near as strict as 1080p blu-ray is and they're doing it like this to ensure this format is as future proof as possible.
Good post and I agree. People keep thinking they wait until this fall and they will get a projector that meets the full HDMI 2.0 spec. They thought that last year and we know how that worked out. If waiting for full spec, you have a long wait. Better buy a lamp or two for your current projector.

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post #10901 of 10913 Unread Yesterday, 10:19 PM
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I already have a spare lamp and my present lamp has under 500 hours on it. My projector can also do P3. Although this is anti sales, I would not buy a 4K projector unless it can do P3. I think the ability to display P3 will not make anyone wanting for quite a few years. If I needed or wanted a new projector, I would buy a 2k projector or a cheaper faux 4K from JVC. Todays 4K (basically just a resolution increase) just doesn't give one very much.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The format will have "loose" specs because the BDA realizes this format is calling for things that don't exist yet and for things that current displays cannot do. So while Scott's article says certain things those are not the specs of all video that UHD BD will have. It's more than likely, for a number of years, we won't see anything but 8bit (possibly 10bit) 4:2:0 UHD video color graded for a REC709 color space with a possibility in the future for UHD BDs to come out with higher bit depth, chroma subsampling, and content color graded for a larger gamut. This format is no where near as strict as 1080p blu-ray is and they're doing it like this to ensure this format is as future proof as possible.
This sounds like a complete mess. Or just a way to sell us the same content multiple times. First comes the 8bit 4:2:0 version, then the "special edition" with 10bit 4:2:0, then the "anniversary edition" REC2020. On top of that before buying a disc we'd have to check if it's compatible with our projector and/or player. It will make only having to check if the #@&!% region is compatible "the good old days".

Again thanks for the informative post. I'm not sure if now I am more or less inclined to get the vw1100. In the end the decisive factor might be the brightness and the $900 bulbs in my, not so bright to begin with, vw200.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
They won't be upgrading those units. Information revealed a while back indicated it cost Sony a lot of money to create the update for 1000ES owners to upgrade their motherboard. Much of the cost to do this was subsidized by Sony. Considering there are probably more 600ES/350ES owners than 1100ES owners it would be too costly for Sony to do another upgrade. Then again, like I pointed out, these Sony 4K models have enough bandwidth for what the vast majority of UHD BD will be anyways. There's really no point in an upgrade for all three units. If 600ES owners are expecting some sort of upgrade I don't know why this would be. It was pretty obvious the 600ES and 350ES were "early adopter" units. They were released well beyond a year prior to UHD BD spec being finalized. Were they honestly expecting Sony to know everything about that finalized spec more than a year in advanced (4 years if you consider how old the 1000ES is)? I think it would be a bit ridiculous for end users to expect Sony to provide an update for them. Early adopters should know they usually get shafted in one way or another.
What burns me is there there NO reason to offer the upgrade when they did, or even launch an 1100, which was basically identical to the 1000, knowing what needed to shake out. We all wanted something, no doubt, but as an industry leader, all they needed to do at the time is say - "We know you guys are impatient, but we want to wait until the specs are settled and the hardware is available so you can take maximum advantage of what the 1000 has to offer and what the future may hold. So look for an update kit end of 2014/early 2015. It's our guarantee to you."

Then launch the 1100 at 2015 CES, with full support for HDMI 2.0 and announce the upgrade kit for the 1000. They should have tried to build the 4k service more agnostically, to try and get more studios on board, not worry about limiting it exclusively Sony devices from the start, and launch it separately and with focused fanfare as an industry-first with broad appeal to any 4k display owner (putting aside its insignificant quality gains over existing Blu Ray)

All they did was push out a way-too early upgrade simply to get HDCP 2.2 in place because some guy who's probably long-fired thought they had to be first to market with a 4k service, and Sony thought they had a GOLD MINE with the FMP - a product (and its successor) and a severely limited service than almost everyone here I would suspect never or rarely uses (certainly no stream of posts salivating over another great stunning 4k released that they watched over the weekend)

So why did they need to do an upgrade then as opposed to now or even mid 2015...? The (potential) partial gain in functionality could have been a much more complete gain to the end user had they waited till now.
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They clearly wanted to make you suffer. Maybe the people who are no longer there felt that Sony wouldn't last much longer and they wanted to make sure they gave you something before the company went kaput or simply couldn't afford to do an upgrade. Remember all their field engineers who installed boards have now been laid off.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The format will have "loose" specs because the BDA realizes this format is calling for things that don't exist yet and for things that current displays cannot do. ... his format is no where near as strict as 1080p blu-ray is and they're doing it like this to ensure this format is as future proof as possible.
Yet 3D is (likely) nowhere in the spec. Real "future proof" when you take away features compared to the previous iteration!

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They clearly wanted to make you suffer. Maybe the people who are no longer there felt that Sony wouldn't last much longer and they wanted to make sure they gave you something before the company went kaput or simply couldn't afford to do an upgrade. Remember all their field engineers who installed boards have now been laid off.
Sony. It's All Baloney
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What burns me is there there NO reason to offer the upgrade when they did, or even launch an 1100, which was basically identical to the 1000, knowing what needed to shake out. We all wanted something, no doubt, but as an industry leader, all they needed to do at the time is say - "We know you guys are impatient, but we want to wait until the specs are settled and the hardware is available so you can take maximum advantage of what the 1000 has to offer and what the future may hold. So look for an update kit end of 2014/early 2015. It's our guarantee to you."

Then launch the 1100 at 2015 CES, with full support for HDMI 2.0 and announce the upgrade kit for the 1000. They should have tried to build the 4k service more agnostically, to try and get more studios on board, not worry about limiting it exclusively Sony devices from the start, and launch it separately and with focused fanfare as an industry-first with broad appeal to any 4k display owner (putting aside its insignificant quality gains over existing Blu Ray)

All they did was push out a way-too early upgrade simply to get HDCP 2.2 in place because some guy who's probably long-fired thought they had to be first to market with a 4k service, and Sony thought they had a GOLD MINE with the FMP - a product (and its successor) and a severely limited service than almost everyone here I would suspect never or rarely uses (certainly no stream of posts salivating over another great stunning 4k released that they watched over the weekend)

So why did they need to do an upgrade then as opposed to now or even mid 2015...? The (potential) partial gain in functionality could have been a much more complete gain to the end user had they waited till now.
To quote Judge Chamberlain Haller form the movie My Cousin Vinny, "That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection."

But, I don't think they could have gotten away with doing nothing at the time as the cat was already out of the bag with the FMP units supporting their 4K TV displays. Sony needed 4K content to push sales of the 4K TV's and that's true even today. And back peddling by telling the public to wait until the specs have settled and hardware becomes available for the VPL-VW1000 would have killed their 4K TV sales by begging the question about the hardware and specs for the 4K TV's.
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To quote Judge Chamberlain Haller form the movie My Cousin Vinny, "That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection."

But, I don't think they could have gotten away with doing nothing at the time as the cat was already out of the bag with the FMP units supporting their 4K TV displays. Sony needed 4K content to push sales of the 4K TV's and that's true even today. And back peddling by telling the public to wait until the specs have settled and hardware becomes available for the VPL-VW1000 would have killed their 4K TV sales by begging the question about the hardware and specs for the 4K TV's.
Lol, we just watched that a few weeks ago...what a classic movie...

My point is the 4k service (Sony knowing what it was -no better than Blu Ray with no content) was immaterial or even mildly hurtful to Sony. What goodwill does that facata service generate for them?

Most people bought 4k to future proof their purchase, and still do to this day since there's nothing to watch. If marketed correctly, (and with some foresight of engineering design to facilitate updates easier, an area where Sony failed, but Samscum may have done better with external boxes for their sets), they still could have sold boxes and taken the correct path for the marketplace

As it stands the Puck, Brick, and service ended up being a joke and helped Sony in almost no way. Joe Six Pack wasn't the customer for 4k, so focus on the relatively higher standards the boutique market wants, make a name, and grow it from there.

Almost everything that could be done wrong with 4k was done wrong by this industry. And the same farce is now playing out with multiple new audio surround formats.
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This is basically the argument I've made for months, and that was before I read in one of the highlighted AVS forums that the 18Ghz (edit: 18Gbps--thanks Seegs) chips have been in some consumer devices for the past 6-8 months. So they would have only had to delay the rollout a few months. And they (Sony and MS) could have also gone ahead and made 4K gaming consoles if they had just put an unnecessary hardware refresh off one holiday season.

Maybe that last part is a stretch because volume would have been an issue. But now these stupid console gens that should last at least 5-7 years are probably stuck at 1080p.

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This is basically the argument I've made for months, and that was before I read in one of the highlighted AVS forums that the 18Ghz chips have been in some consumer devices for the past 6-8 months. So they would have only had to delay the rollout a few months. And they (Sony and MS) could have also gone ahead and made 4K gaming consoles if they had just put an unnecessary hardware refresh off one holiday season.

Maybe that last part is a stretch because volume would have been an issue. But now these stupid console gens that should last at least 5-7 years are probably stuck at 1080p.
It's 18Gbps not Ghz. But your time frame is way off. The 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 chipsets have only been available in mass quantities for a few months now. So people would have been waiting more than year extra to get the upgrade, not a few months. I think if Sony released the 600ES with it's bandwidth advantage (even though it's the more limited 10.2Gbps chipset) with support for Sony's 4K download service and not offer the 1000ES an upgrade to take advantage of the same content and throughput as the 600ES the 1000ES would have been furious. So while you may say this in hindsight, take a moment and put yourself in your shoes 1.5 years ago. At the time, if Sony said "We're going to make 1000ES owners wait more than year to upgrade your units" how upset would this crowd have been?
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But your time frame is way off. The 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 chipsets have only been available in mass quantities for a few months now.
From Scott Wilkinson's forum post, just from yesterday here at AVS:

Quote:
I spoke with Steve Venuti, president of HDMI Licensing, the organization that licenses the HDMI spec to manufacturers. He told me that the required chips with HDMI 2.0 at 18 Gbps and HDCP 2.2 have been selling for the last six to eight months, and these are now in shipping products, including various Panasonic devices and Samsung TVs. I had thought it would have taken longer than that to integrate the new chips into products.
So that means I got my upgraded board about 1-3 months before the 18Gbps made that board basically obsolete.

Now back to your post:

Quote:
So while you may say this in hindsight, take a moment and put yourself in your shoes 1.5 years ago. At the time, if Sony said "We're going to make 1000ES owners wait more than year to upgrade your units" how upset would this crowd have been?
I'd have to go back and search my posts, but I was thinking this from very soon after I heard about this. No hindsight involved in this analysis. The timetable was all around HDCP 2.2 (and Sony's half-baked playback hardware), when it should have been all about finalized HDMI 2.0. And now we get to wait for Amazon streaming anyway (which is already bought and paid for by many of us) when other Sony hardware has already implemented it!

It really all goes back to, yes it is fantastic they offered the upgrade, but if they were going to bother to do it why didn't they just go ahead and do it right?

Matt

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I am not upset by any of this. I have gotten 3 years of great PQ out of my 1000/1100ES. A fantastic projector which it would still be if it were only a 2k set. the P3 filter means I will be able to watch 4k Blurays in P3 which I believe will be the new color space for say 3 or 4 years and 8 Bits will do me fine and so will 19.2 Gbps chips at 24 and 4:2:0, I doubt that colors would be noticeably better at 4:2:2 than 2:0 given that the difference would be in blue given how relatively unimportant blue is and how insensitive our eyes are to blue. Thrang and Turls are a lot more sensitive than their eyes are to blue.




Thrang. Did you watch the NHL all star game? Even I didn't watch that nor the NFL Pro Ball game.

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Originally Posted by turls View Post
From Scott Wilkinson's forum post, just from yesterday here at AVS:



So that means I got my upgraded board about 1-3 months before the 18Gbps made that board basically obsolete.

Now back to your post:



I'd have to go back and search my posts, but I was thinking this from very soon after I heard about this. No hindsight involved in this analysis. The timetable was all around HDCP 2.2 (and Sony's half-baked playback hardware), when it should have been all about finalized HDMI 2.0. And now we get to wait for Amazon streaming anyway (which is already bought and paid for by many of us) when other Sony hardware has already implemented it!

It really all goes back to, yes it is fantastic they offered the upgrade, but if they were going to bother to do it why didn't they just go ahead and do it right?
If you want to think of it like that then your time frame is still off. What I meant was the they've only been available in products you can buy for a few months. They've been available for manufacturers to purchase that long, which means they still would've had to been available at least a year prior because development into the new motherboard didn't happen over night. They most likely started work on it when they were designing the 600ES motherboard, which was most likely ~2 years ago which was well before these 18Gbps chipsets were available.
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