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post #11701 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 06:25 PM
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Ive been meaning to post this question for over a year, finally Im doing it.


I notice a horrible before/after artefact with motion on my 1100. If a person walks across the screen medium speed you see an artefact all round their face and body, this happens even with all motion controls turned to off. Now my screen is large so these things certainly are magnified, probably on a 120" screen it would be greatly reduced. Is this a BD 1080p conversion artefact to the 4K panel?


I had the 500/600 before I replaced it with the 1100, and really motion did look better on the cheaper model, maybe something was improved on it???


Thoughts please guys???

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post #11702 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Ive been meaning to post this question for over a year, finally Im doing it.


I notice a horrible before/after artefact with motion on my 1100. If a person walks across the screen medium speed you see an artefact all round their face and body, this happens even with all motion controls turned to off. Now my screen is large so these things certainly are magnified, probably on a 120" screen it would be greatly reduced. Is this a BD 1080p conversion artefact to the 4K panel?


I had the 500/600 before I replaced it with the 1100, and really motion did look better on the cheaper model, maybe something was improved on it???


Thoughts please guys???
Two questions:

1.) Do you see this artifact frequently or is it only on specific material? Do you see it on blu-ray discs?

2.) Do you have reality creation on? If so, what settings are you using?

I ask these questions because if you're only seeing this artifact with content from, say, Netflix or some other lower grade/lower bitrate/poorly encoded content this issue may just be inherent in the source and not a problem with the projector itself. Secondly it could just be that, depending on how high you have RC set to, it could be creating or exaggerating some noise, macroblocking, ect to the point where you can visibly see it.

I personally don't see this issue with my 1100ES, but I typically only watch blu-rays or web-downloaded TV shows with pretty decent encoding. I also use RC very sparingly. I suspect it's easily seen on HDTV broadcasts from cable or satellite and other things like YouTube or Netlfix on such a large screen. If you think it's an upscaling issue you could try and use an outboard scaling solution like from a PC, blu-ray player, receiver or Lumagen to try and take out as many variables as possible. Do you have any other sources altering the video signal in your chain?
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post #11703 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Two questions:

1.) Do you see this artifact frequently or is it only on specific material? Do you see it on blu-ray discs?

2.) Do you have reality creation on? If so, what settings are you using?

I ask these questions because if you're only seeing this artifact with content from, say, Netflix or some other lower grade/lower bitrate/poorly encoded content this issue may just be inherent in the source and not a problem with the projector itself. Secondly it could just be that, depending on how high you have RC set to, it could be creating or exaggerating some noise, macroblocking, ect to the point where you can visibly see it.

I personally don't see this issue with my 1100ES, but I typically only watch blu-rays or web-downloaded TV shows with pretty decent encoding. I also use RC very sparingly. I suspect it's easily seen on HDTV broadcasts from cable or satellite and other things like YouTube or Netlfix on such a large screen. If you think it's an upscaling issue you could try and use an outboard scaling solution like from a PC, blu-ray player, receiver or Lumagen to try and take out as many variables as possible. Do you have any other sources altering the video signal in your chain?
Thanks Seegs for getting back on this.


I only use BD nothing else. I also use a Lumagen but only as a pass through for stretch on scope. I use a PC, all my BDs are ripped to it. I have the Lumagen set to Auto 2.1
I also believe very very occasionally I see a tiny skipped frame, yet this isn't the problem Im describing.


I do use RC and the built in Darbee in the Lumagen. I wonder if it is RC or the darbee that's bring the artefact in?


When I turn on the Projector in about an hour I'll tell you the RC and Darbee settings I have. Do you use both and have you experimented how far you can use these settings? What size screen do you use?

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post #11704 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Thanks Seegs for getting back on this.


I only use BD nothing else. I also use a Lumagen but only as a pass through for stretch on scope. I use a PC, all my BDs are ripped to it. I have the Lumagen set to Auto 2.1
I also believe very very occasionally I see a tiny skipped frame, yet this isn't the problem Im describing.


I do use RC and the built in Darbee in the Lumagen. I wonder if it is RC or the darbee that's bring the artefact in?


When I turn on the Projector in about an hour I'll tell you the RC and Darbee settings I have. Do you use both and have you experimented how far you can use these settings? What size screen do you use?
I can't use my Darblet because I'm using MadVR's JINC/NNEDI3 to scale the image and I output UHD to the projector. It does a better job at scaling than the 1100ES. The Darblet will only accept 1080p. I do use RC with a UHD input, set to 20 under Resolution and Noise Reduction is set to 0. When you input a 4K/UHD signal to the 1100ES RC is extremely lite and doesn't alter the video much.

Next time you see the artifact, remove the Darblet and disable RC and see if you can still see it. Also, let me know which blu-ray you see it on and an time code. If I have the blu-ray I'll check it out and see if I can see it too. My screen size is 7 feet wide but I can move closer to my screen if necessary.
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post #11705 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I can't use my Darblet because I'm using MadVR's JINC/NNEDI3 to scale the image and I output UHD to the projector. It does a better job at scaling than the 1100ES. The Darblet will only accept 1080p. I do use RC with a UHD input, set to 20 under Resolution and Noise Reduction is set to 0. When you input a 4K/UHD signal to the 1100ES RC is extremely lite and doesn't alter the video much.

Next time you see the artifact, remove the Darblet and disable RC and see if you can still see it. Also, let me know which blu-ray you see it on and an time code. If I have the blu-ray I'll check it out and see if I can see it too. My screen size is 7 feet wide but I can move closer to my screen if necessary.
Im going to check all this out in approx. 1 hour and Ill get back. Many thanks!

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post #11706 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I can't use my Darblet because I'm using MadVR's JINC/NNEDI3 to scale the image and I output UHD to the projector. It does a better job at scaling than the 1100ES. The Darblet will only accept 1080p. I do use RC with a UHD input, set to 20 under Resolution and Noise Reduction is set to 0. When you input a 4K/UHD signal to the 1100ES RC is extremely lite and doesn't alter the video much.

Next time you see the artifact, remove the Darblet and disable RC and see if you can still see it. Also, let me know which blu-ray you see it on and an time code. If I have the blu-ray I'll check it out and see if I can see it too. My screen size is 7 feet wide but I can move closer to my screen if necessary.

I just checked!
I have RC Databass set to Normal
Resolution = 12
Noise Filter = 12
Darbee on Lumagen = 40


I see the artefacts on many films. One I just checked again with your setting of 20 Resolution and no noise filter on is "The International" Right at the start with the main titles in white bottom right, watch as people move past the titles with black umbrellas, its shocking! This is exactly the same artefact I see on the screen when people move swiftly across the screen on every Bluray. Mind you I do have very good glasses that you see the hair in ones ears and nose.


I just hate this, been seeing it on the 1100 since day 1!
500/600 looked much cleaner.

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post #11707 of 11725 Old 08-28-2015, 10:10 PM
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No good Seegs, I see the before and after artefact with everything turned off or on.


Turned off RC, still there.
Turned off Darbee, still there.
Turned off sharpness, still there.
Turned off sharpness on Lumagen, still there.
I always use very minimal settings, even less than you.
Its always there on moving objects no matter what!
Probably don't see it without my glasses, but that's no good for watching films, I like a real clean sharp image....


Image is amazing, but artefact is a shocker! Ive seen this on the 1100 now since I got the projector over a year ago. Was a heap better on my 500/600.
Ive never mentioned this as I just thought it was the nature of the beast. As it was cleaner on the 500/600 I had, I thought is was something that Sony knew about and addressed/improved on the newer 500/600 model.

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post #11708 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 12:24 AM
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I also believe very very occasionally I see a tiny skipped frame, yet this isn't the problem Im describing.
What is your Rate Match setting on the Lumagen? Set to Yes to help with the odd frame skip...

MENU → Output → Styles → [Styles] → HDMI Format → Rate Match → (No, Yes)

Are you sure the "artefact" you are describing isn't simply the image retention that all SXRD/LCOS/LCD has?

Try turning on black frame insertion to see if it improves things...

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post #11709 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 05:44 AM
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What is your Rate Match setting on the Lumagen? Set to Yes to help with the odd frame skip...

MENU → Output → Styles → [Styles] → HDMI Format → Rate Match → (No, Yes)

Are you sure the "artefact" you are describing isn't simply the image retention that all SXRD/LCOS/LCD has?

Try turning on black frame insertion to see if it improves things...

I have the Lumagen set to Rate Match YES, that's correct isn't it?


Yes maybe the artefact I see is the image retention that's on SXRD, strange thought that no one else sees this and complains about it???

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post #11710 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 05:58 AM
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I have that BD disc. When I get home later I'll check it out. I'm pretty critical when it comes to artifacts that most would find trivial. If I see even a trace of it, I'll let you know. From what I've seen, these SXRD panels are the closest to DLP when it comes to motion. I can't remember a time where I thought there was something visibly wrong with motion, especially with a 24p signal. Visibly better than JVC's DiLA panels and better than what I saw from Epson's LCoQ panels inside their LS10000 when it comes to motion handling and the sample-and-hold artifact, or should I say a lack there of.
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post #11711 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 06:06 AM
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I have that BD disc. When I get home later I'll check it out. I'm pretty critical when it comes to artifacts that most would find trivial. If I see even a trace of it, I'll let you know. From what I've seen, these SXRD panels are the closest to DLP when it comes to motion. I can't remember a time where I thought there was something visibly wrong with motion, especially with a 24p signal. Visibly better than JVC's DiLA panels and better than what I saw from Epson's LCoQ panels inside their LS10000 when it comes to motion handling and the sample-and-hold artifact, or should I say a lack there of.

Gee I do hope Im not more critical than most then as I see it often on a lot of BDs!
Maybe my glasses are just too good!

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post #11712 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 06:08 AM
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I have the Lumagen set to Rate Match YES, that's correct isn't it?
Yes.

Quote:
Yes maybe the artefact I see is the image retention that's on SXRD, strange thought that no one else sees this and complains about it???
Well, image retention on the Sony bothers me, but there's not much to do about it... you can try black frame insertion, but for me it robs too much light. I need a much brighter projector to start with. For now, it's the price I have to pay for the Sony's other great attributes.

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post #11713 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 06:13 AM
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Yes.



Well, image retention on the Sony bothers me, but there's not much to do about it... you can try black frame insertion, but for me it robs too much light. I need a much brighter projector to start with. For now, it's the price I have to pay for the Sony's other great attributes.
I don't use black frame either as it robs too much light on my 145" scope AT screen. I have a feeling that using it might help, but Im not prepared to have a dim image!

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post #11714 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM
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Is it possible if you took the Lumagen out of the equation it would be gone or greatly reduced?

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post #11715 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 12:49 PM
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Is it possible if you took the Lumagen out of the equation it would be gone or greatly reduced?
I dont really think so, Lumagen is not known for adding artefacts! As I mentioned I tested turning any enhancements off on the Lumagen, still there.

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post #11716 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM
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I dont really think so, Lumagen is not known for adding artefacts! As I mentioned I tested turning any enhancements off on the Lumagen, still there.
I wasn't meaning them in general but maybe there is an issue with yours in particular? Not trying to pick on Lumagen Just stating there has to be something causing it.

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I dont really think so, Lumagen is not known for adding artefacts! As I mentioned I tested turning any enhancements off on the Lumagen, still there.
But when troubleshooting, simplify...take the lumagen out of the equation and see if the condition changes...
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I wasn't meaning them in general but maybe there is an issue with yours in particular? Not trying to pick on Lumagen Just stating there has to be something causing it.
Yes I can do that but I believe its the nature of the VW1100 panels, not sure though why others don't see it, my eyes cant be better than all of you. Have you not got a copy of "The International" to test? Everyone who cares about good quality images should have this movie.


Im waiting on Seegs to get back to me, he has the movie.

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post #11719 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 12:59 PM
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But when troubleshooting, simplify...take the lumagen out of the equation and see if the condition changes...
Yes going to try that.

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post #11720 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM
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Yes I can do that but I believe its the nature of the VW1100 panels, not sure though why others don't see it, my eyes cant be better than all of you. Have you not got a copy of "The International" to test? Everyone who cares about good quality images should have this movie.


Im waiting on Seegs to get back to me, he has the movie.
I don't have that one. It came out during a dark time in my life I refer to as the war. Actually it was during my divorce. I will order it now from Amazon unless BB has a copy in there store.

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I watched the scene Murray is referring to. In this case, the artifact is inherent in the source material. I saw what he was referring to and tested it out on the 1100ES, my LG 34UM95 monitor and then on my Planar PD8150 for good measure. The same artifact was there on three displays. Murray, I think what you're seeing on blu-ray is simply the limitation of 24p capture. It can make things look a little stuttery, blurry and some times cause oddities like the one you saw on The International.

Here is a NNEDI3/JINC scaled image to UHD of a single frame of the movie in question:

http://i.imgur.com/uuBBvDm.jpg

In this frame you see no oddities, but when you playback the scene it looks like there are odd things going on with the umbrella and around the people faces. Almost like the pixels are being scrambled up. I think the motion was too fast for the camera/capture settings which resulted in the artifact seen when played back. But like I said, individual frame captures show no issues.

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I watched the scene Murray is referring to. In this case, the artifact is inherent in the source material. I saw what he was referring to and tested it out on the 1100ES, my LG 34UM95 monitor and then on my Planar PD8150 for good measure. The same artifact was there on three displays. Murray, I think what you're seeing on blu-ray is simply the limitation of 24p capture. It can make things look a little stuttery, blurry and some times cause oddities like the one you saw on The International.

Here is a NNEDI3/JINC scaled image to UHD of a single frame of the movie in question:

http://i.imgur.com/uuBBvDm.jpg

In this frame you see no oddities, but when you playback the scene it looks like there are odd things going on with the umbrella and around the people faces. Almost like the pixels are being scrambled up. I think the motion was too fast for the camera/capture settings which resulted in the artifact seen when played back. But like I said, individual frame captures show no issues.
That's great news that you too have now seen it, Im thrilled.
At least it points out that its not my Lumagen or projector, thank God!


This same type of artefact I see from time to time on my VW1100. Usually when a person is moving fast across the screen. I also now wonder if its not enhanced with my Isco III, since the stretch sideways would make the artefact look wider! I don't think Ive noticed this on 16:9 films, probably more pronounced with the A lens in place. Yet A lens or not, it does prove that its in the projected image and can show up in the right type of scene.


Well it is what it is, so I may as well put that one to bed

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post #11723 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 04:12 PM
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That's great news that you too have now seen it, Im thrilled.
At least it points out that its not my Lumagen or projector, thank God!


This same type of artefact I see from time to time on my VW1100. Usually when a person is moving fast across the screen. I also now wonder if its not enhanced with my Isco III, since the stretch sideways would make the artefact look wider! I don't think Ive noticed this on 16:9 films, probably more pronounced with the A lens in place. Yet A lens or not, it does prove that its in the projected image and can show up in the right type of scene.


Well it is what it is, so I may as well put that one to bed
Have you tried to use the Lumagen for the anamorphic zoom to see it the artifacts are lessened? The Lumagen site has a tip sheet on how to set up the Lumagen for this.

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post #11724 of 11725 Old Yesterday, 04:38 PM
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Have you tried to use the Lumagen for the anamorphic zoom to see it the artifacts are lessened? The Lumagen site has a tip sheet on how to set up the Lumagen for this.
No I haven't and I wouldn't, I don't like seeing stuff below or above the top and bottom masking. The A lens gives a much cleaner image since everything is masked perfectly, so in that case I would prefer to see the occasional artefact.

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post #11725 of 11725 Old Today, 12:26 AM
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Yeah, no need to point a finger at the Lumagen here... if there are artefacts, they are caused by the projector.

My cinema: The Cave!

My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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