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post #12151 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
According to this brief review, the new JVC 9000 could not even match 520es with native 4K.......the 1000/1100 will be even more ruthless with the 9000

The X9000 does have one potentially significant problem, though. Although it’s capable of taking in 4K UHD feeds, and uses complex "e-Shift" technology to try to recreate 4K pixel density from its Full HD D-ILA chipsets, it was clear during my preview that it doesn’t render 4K sources with anywhere near as much detail as a true 4K projector – such as the similarly priced Sony VW520ES.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/jvc-dla-x9000-review
And this tester has seen them side by side with UHD BD or 4K native input?? I dont think so, but of corse a 4K native projector will show native 4K at a higher detail level than a E-Shift model. What I am talking about is total PQ and not only detail level when fed 4K, I am sure most owners of the RS600 and VW520 will still watch mostly normal BD and then I think the new JVC will be better than the VW1100 and VW520. Anyway I will be able to test this in desember when I get a hold on the VW520 and one of the new top JVC´s and test the side by side in a deep test.

And also this John Archer I don´t see as a serious tester as he provides no measurements or anything important in his reviews. He also could not speak more highly of the VW520, when I saw the VW520 preproduction model here in Norway I was not that impressed (to my memory I liked the VW500 better) and I hope the production model gives me a better impression. And I am sure it will.

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Last edited by Andreas21; 11-07-2015 at 08:48 AM.
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post #12152 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 12:45 PM
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And this tester has seen them side by side with UHD BD or 4K native input?? I dont think so, but of corse a 4K native projector will show native 4K at a higher detail level than a E-Shift model. What I am talking about is total PQ and not only detail level when fed 4K, I am sure most owners of the RS600 and VW520 will still watch mostly normal BD and then I think the new JVC will be better than the VW1100 and VW520. Anyway I will be able to test this in desember when I get a hold on the VW520 and one of the new top JVC´s and test the side by side in a deep test.

And also this John Archer I don´t see as a serious tester as he provides no measurements or anything important in his reviews. He also could not speak more highly of the VW520, when I saw the VW520 preproduction model here in Norway I was not that impressed (to my memory I liked the VW500 better) and I hope the production model gives me a better impression. And I am sure it will.

Apart from black levels ,I doubt the 9000 will touch the 1100/1000 in any other field.
Hopefully Art Fiereman will give us a side by side comparison.
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post #12153 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 12:55 PM
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Apart from black levels ,I doubt the 9000 will touch the 1100/1000 in any other field.
Hopefully Art Fiereman will give us a side by side comparison.
I am quite sure it will touch it on more than only blacklevel and I hope someone else than Art Feierman will also do a side by side test.

So you think your Panny projector will beat the RS600 in total PQ as you rate it almost on par with your VW1000??

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post #12154 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 01:09 PM
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It will come close in lumen output, maybe having more than the 1100ES.
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post #12155 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 01:18 PM
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It will come close in lumen output, maybe having more than the 1100ES.
Any ideas if the DCI/P3 filter hit is the same or less with the 600 vs the 1100?
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post #12156 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 01:37 PM
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Any ideas if the DCI/P3 filter hit is the same or less with the 600 vs the 1100?
In previous generation units the filter reduced lumen output by 25%.
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post #12157 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 01:39 PM
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In previous generation units the filter reduced lumen output by 25%.
Previous JVC?

Not sure, but I thought I read Sony is at a 33-35% hit with the filter
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post #12158 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 01:56 PM
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Previous JVC?

Not sure, but I thought I read Sony is at a 33-35% hit with the filter
Yes the previous generation JVCs units have had the filter for a number of years.
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post #12159 of 13932 Old 11-07-2015, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
According to this brief review, the new JVC 9000 could not even match 520es with native 4K.......the 1000/1100 will be even more ruthless with the 9000

The X9000 does have one potentially significant problem, though. Although it’s capable of taking in 4K UHD feeds, and uses complex "e-Shift" technology to try to recreate 4K pixel density from its Full HD D-ILA chipsets, it was clear during my preview that it doesn’t render 4K sources with anywhere near as much detail as a true 4K projector – such as the similarly priced Sony VW520ES.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/jvc-dla-x9000-review
Probably more relevant is how the pics produced by the X9000 and the Sony's compare with 1080p input, i.e., how they upscale via e-shift and Sony's upscaling, for these are going to be the vast majority of source material for several years.
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post #12160 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I am quite sure it will touch it on more than only blacklevel and I hope someone else than Art Feierman will also do a side by side test.

So you think your Panny projector will beat the RS600 in total PQ as you rate it almost on par with your VW1000??
I think you misunderstand when I say that I derive more joy from the Panny than the Sony.
That derivation of joy from the Panny is an aesthetic choice, not a qualitative one.
If I was basing that joy derivation solely from a qualitative point of view then the Sony wins hands down.
Compared to the Panny, the Sony is much sharper, has better contrast, better uniformity, more brightness, better shadow delineation ect ect.


But the above variables do not necessarily produce a better aesthetic(depending on your own individual tastes).
Close Encounters Of The Third Kind is one my favourite movies.
It was shot using a variety of film stocks and contains VFX elements that are created from the optical compositing of several layers of 70mm film elements. What this essentially means is that it is a grainy film. This graininess spikes during darker scenes. This is inherent with the film making technology of the day(1977) and is part of the look of the film.
The mastering(done by Sony Studios) for the Blu ray preserved this grainy constituent.


Because of the photochemical process(now obsolete) that was used to get films into cinemas in the 1970s(before digital intermediates and digital projection) , this graininess was reduced through optical printing.
So by the time you got to see a film like Close Encounters in theatres in 1977, you were watching a 4th generation 35mm print.
This 4th generation print would have been less grainy than the original 35mm negative, but detail would have been sacrificed yielding a more velvety type of appearance.


The best way to describe all of this is that the Sony 1000/1100 gives you an impression of what it would be like to see all the detail that is present in an original 35mm negative(converted to positive of course!).
The Panny gives you the sensation of watching a 35mm theatrical print.


Robert Harris(who restored Lawrence Of Arabia, My Fair Lady and Vertigo) describes this quality quite well.


I only really became aware of these differences when I acquired the 1000es and started comparing it to the Panny.


Now a modern film like Oblivion, shot on a Sony 4K digital camera is another story altogether.
It contains no grain.
This I where the 1000/1100 really shines.
Displaying all that sharpness and contrast without the distraction of any grain.
Again , you have to take into account the aesthetics as well as the qualitative factors.


It is a shame you no longer have your 1100es.It is something that is easier to discern by seeing, rather than describing(as I have just done).
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post #12161 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 01:33 AM
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Probably more relevant is how the pics produced by the X9000 and the Sony's compare with 1080p input, i.e., how they upscale via e-shift and Sony's upscaling, for these are going to be the vast majority of source material for several years.

Absolutely.
And I get why the 9000 will have that appeal.


But the overall evaluation has to be based on all the attributes of the PJ.


Maybe the 9000 will have a slight edge in upscaling 1080p content, relative to the 1000/1100.
And even then the upscaling is effected by the source material.
Upscaling grainy flicks like Raging Bull ,will yield altogether different results than upscaling something like Oblivion.


But the 1100 will easily surpass the 9000 with 4K native content(be it with older or modern flicks) .
This is my supposition anyway
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post #12162 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I think you misunderstand when I say that I derive more joy from the Panny than the Sony.
That derivation of joy from the Panny is an aesthetic choice, not a qualitative one.
If I was basing that joy derivation solely from a qualitative point of view then the Sony wins hands down.
Compared to the Panny, the Sony is much sharper, has better contrast, better uniformity, more brightness, better shadow delineation ect ect.


But the above variables do not necessarily produce a better aesthetic(depending on your own individual tastes).
Close Encounters Of The Third Kind is one my favourite movies.
It was shot using a variety of film stocks and contains VFX elements that are created from the optical compositing of several layers of 70mm film elements. What this essentially means is that it is a grainy film. This graininess spikes during darker scenes. This is inherent with the film making technology of the day(1977) and is part of the look of the film.
The mastering(done by Sony Studios) for the Blu ray preserved this grainy constituent.


Because of the photochemical process(now obsolete) that was used to get films into cinemas in the 1970s(before digital intermediates and digital projection) , this graininess was reduced through optical printing.
So by the time you got to see a film like Close Encounters in theatres in 1977, you were watching a 4th generation 35mm print.
This 4th generation print would have been less grainy than the original 35mm negative, but detail would have been sacrificed yielding a more velvety type of appearance.


The best way to describe all of this is that the Sony 1000/1100 gives you an impression of what it would be like to see all the detail that is present in an original 35mm negative(converted to positive of course!).
The Panny gives you the sensation of watching a 35mm theatrical print.


Robert Harris(who restored Lawrence Of Arabia, My Fair Lady and Vertigo) describes this quality quite well.


I only really became aware of these differences when I acquired the 1000es and started comparing it to the Panny.


Now a modern film like Oblivion, shot on a Sony 4K digital camera is another story altogether.
It contains no grain.
This I where the 1000/1100 really shines.
Displaying all that sharpness and contrast without the distraction of any grain.
Again , you have to take into account the aesthetics as well as the qualitative factors.


It is a shame you no longer have your 1100es.It is something that is easier to discern by seeing, rather than describing(as I have just done).
I had the VW1000/1100 and I watched around 600 movies on the 2 different I had so I am quite aware of how films with filmgrain and digital movies looked on it. And I am one of the few people side by side testing it aganist the JVC X500 many many times and owned them both at the same time for a month of two. And a movie with much grain looks more like it should on a VW1000 with RC off than on your Panny with smoothscreen as it will only hide the grain in the softness of the picture like applying DNR. That is my view on the matter and after owning the X500 for 10 months and thinking the X7000/9000 will only be better I am sure my statement about the 7000/9000 is going to be true to me.

I was and still am a big fan of the picturequality og the 1000/1100 and I think I am one of the people in here who defended it against the JVC horde and still think it throws a better total PQ over the X500, but after seeing the X5000 I am sure the X7000/9000 will better than the 1000/1100. The X5000 gave me that Sony look in brighter scenes and with much better dark capabilities, so if the X7000/9000 has better on/off and ANSI contrast it is going to be even better. I cant wait to check it out.
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post #12163 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I had the VW1000/1100 and I watched around 600 movies on the 2 different I had so I am quite aware of how films with filmgrain and digital movies looked on it. And I am one of the few people side by side testing it aganist the JVC X500 many many times and owned them both at the same time for a month of two. And a movie with much grain looks more like it should on a VW1000 with RC off than on your Panny with smoothscreen as it will only hide the grain in the softness of the picture like applying DNR. That is my view on the matter and after owning the X500 for 10 months and thinking the X7000/9000 will only be better I am sure my statement about the 7000/9000 is going to be true to me.

I was and still am a big fan of the picturequality og the 1000/1100 and I think I am one of the people in here who defended it against the JVC horde and still think it throws a better total PQ over the X500, but after seeing the X5000 I am sure the X7000/9000 will better than the 1000/1100. The X5000 gave me that Sony look in brighter scenes and with much better dark capabilities, so if the X7000/9000 has better on/off and ANSI contrast it is going to be even better. I cant wait to check it out.

Thanks Andreas.


I value your judgements because you definitely you are one of the few who has seen these PJs in action contemporaneously.


If the 9000 were cheaper (or had native 4K capabilities) I would almost buy one myself(and hold onto the 1000 too).


But the 9000 is just a fancy 1080p projector(not that there is anything wrong with that).
It's limitations will become apparent when you move onto 4K material.


The best comparison would be watch the same flick(say Oblivion) on both PJ's.
But:


On the JVC you would watch the Blu Ray(upscaled).
On the Sony you would watch the UHD Blu Ray.


This way both PJ's would be performing at their peak performance capabilities and it will be easier to tell them apart.
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post #12164 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Thanks Andreas.


I value your judgements because you definitely you are one of the few who has seen these PJs in action contemporaneously.


If the 9000 were cheaper (or had native 4K capabilities) I would almost buy one myself(and hold onto the 1000 too).


But the 9000 is just a fancy 1080p projector(not that there is anything wrong with that).
It's limitations will become apparent when you move onto 4K material.


The best comparison would be watch the same flick(say Oblivion) on both PJ's.
But:


On the JVC you would watch the Blu Ray(upscaled).
On the Sony you would watch the UHD Blu Ray.


This way both PJ's would be performing at their peak performance capabilities and it will be easier to tell them apart.



At some point this will be done and I think the results will be interesting.

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post #12165 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
[/B]

At some point this will be done and I think the results will be interesting.
I will do it, but with the VW520 ( I don´t have any VW1100 available) and one of the top JVC´s. And it will happen as soon as the arrive here in Norway.

And Oblivion will be one of the main comparison movies.

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post #12166 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 07:26 AM
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I will do it, but with the VW520 ( I don´t have any VW1100 available) and one of the top JVC´s. And it will happen as soon as the arrive here in Norway.

And Oblivion will be one of the main comparison movies.
Cool.
If you could throw in an older movie too(like the Godfather), that would be interesting to observe as well.
How differing projector technologies(DLP, LCOS or LCD) handle film grain is an important factor in rendering aesthetically pleasing images .
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post #12167 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
The best comparison would be watch the same flick(say Oblivion) on both PJ's.
But:

On the JVC you would watch the Blu Ray(upscaled).
On the Sony you would watch the UHD Blu Ray.

This way both PJ's would be performing at their peak performance capabilities and it will be easier to tell them apart.
You may need a time machine for this comparison as it's unlikely we'll see a UHD version of Oblivion anytime soon. And for this test, you would want to run the same exact source for a fair comparison.

of course this may never actually happen. If they didn't spend the time or $$ to do 4K end to end on the theatrical release, it's doubtful they would cover this expense for a niche market UHD release of a movie that well - isn't really that great to begin with.


Direct from Claudio Miranda:

What influenced your choice of F65 camera for Oblivion?
Originally Joe was wishing for a 4K release of Oblivion but that didn’t happen. A lot has to do with finances and time crunch. VFX said that if you need to release in 4K, it’s another month and a half of time they would need for rendering and pipeline and checking and all that kind of stuff. It was also a huge additional cost as well and the studio didn’t want to go for that, even though Joe was really pushing for that.


The Oblivion website says shot in 4K.
Shot in 4K. The DI was done in 2K and it is released in 2K. Yes, we shot in 4K. It’s all captured in Sony’s 4K RAW format. We have the full RAW so I guess with their new de-mosaicing you can now go 8K if you want. It’s all a matter of how you de-mosaic the image, but our original intent was 4K.
A lot of the VFX work was in 4K for some of the shots, for stabilization, for mattes or plates and sometimes they did work in 4K, but the final render was for speed, I must say the 2K image is very sharp. It’s nothing to be sneezed at.



We don't need a time machine however to know that the JVC is going to have better performance in low APL scenes. That is the case today and will be even better with the high lumen output + clamped dual iris of the upcoming models.
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post #12168 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 12:12 PM
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You may need a time machine for this comparison as it's unlikely we'll see a UHD version of Oblivion anytime soon. And for this test, you would want to run the same exact source for a fair comparison.

of course this may never actually happen. If they didn't spend the time or $$ to do 4K end to end on the theatrical release, it's doubtful they would cover this expense for a niche market UHD release of a movie that well - isn't really that great to begin with.


Direct from Claudio Miranda:

What influenced your choice of F65 camera for Oblivion?
Originally Joe was wishing for a 4K release of Oblivion but that didn’t happen. A lot has to do with finances and time crunch. VFX said that if you need to release in 4K, it’s another month and a half of time they would need for rendering and pipeline and checking and all that kind of stuff. It was also a huge additional cost as well and the studio didn’t want to go for that, even though Joe was really pushing for that.


The Oblivion website says shot in 4K.
Shot in 4K. The DI was done in 2K and it is released in 2K. Yes, we shot in 4K. It’s all captured in Sony’s 4K RAW format. We have the full RAW so I guess with their new de-mosaicing you can now go 8K if you want. It’s all a matter of how you de-mosaic the image, but our original intent was 4K.
A lot of the VFX work was in 4K for some of the shots, for stabilization, for mattes or plates and sometimes they did work in 4K, but the final render was for speed, I must say the 2K image is very sharp. It’s nothing to be sneezed at.



We don't need a time machine however to know that the JVC is going to have better performance in low APL scenes. That is the case today and will be even better with the high lumen output + clamped dual iris of the upcoming models.

Ahh yes I forgot about the 2K finish for Oblivion.


Looking at the 1st wave of UHD titles it looks as if all of them are 2K finishes(Life Of Pi was shot at 2.8 k with an uprezzed 4K finish).:


Exodus: Gods and Kings, Kingsman: The Secret Service, Fantastic Four, X-Men: Days of Future Past, Life of Pi, The Maze Runner and Wild.



Maybe the best method is to try both 1080p and UHD versions with both projectors side by side.
That would be fair.
Lawrence Of Arabia which is an 8K scan rendered to a 4K finish (and shot mostly in daylight) would probably look superior on the Sony(in native 4K).
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post #12169 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Thanks Andreas.


I value your judgements because you definitely you are one of the few who has seen these PJs in action contemporaneously.


If the 9000 were cheaper (or had native 4K capabilities) I would almost buy one myself(and hold onto the 1000 too).


But the 9000 is just a fancy 1080p projector(not that there is anything wrong with that).
It's limitations will become apparent when you move onto 4K material.


The best comparison would be watch the same flick(say Oblivion) on both PJ's.
But:


On the JVC you would watch the Blu Ray(upscaled).
On the Sony you would watch the UHD Blu Ray.



This way both PJ's would be performing at their peak performance capabilities and it will be easier to tell them apart.
That would put the JVC at a disadvantage, not level the playing field. The JVC would then be missing HDR, expanded color and 4K. If you want to compare, you use the same source.

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post #12170 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 04:28 PM
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That would put the JVC at a disadvantage, not level the playing field. The JVC would then be missing HDR, expanded color and 4K. If you want to compare, you use the same source.
My understanding is that when the RS600 accepts a 4K input, its e-shifted 1080p image is better than when it receives a 1080p input that is e-shifted. I.e, its e-shift procedure processes a 4K input more effectively that a 1080p input. Is that correct?
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post #12171 of 13932 Old 11-08-2015, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
My understanding is that when the RS600 accepts a 4K input, its e-shifted 1080p image is better than when it receives a 1080p input that is e-shifted. I.e, its e-shift procedure processes a 4K input more effectively that a 1080p input. Is that correct?
Yes.

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post #12172 of 13932 Old 11-09-2015, 06:34 AM
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Anyone know what the state of getting an 1000/1100 repaired? My upgraded 1000 just went out of warranty. The other night I used the lens zoom for the first time in ages and it clunked when engaged. The memory recall didn't get the image to the right spot and I had to resetup the position/zoom/focus. I live 1500 miles from my original dealer so that won't do me much good.
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post #12173 of 13932 Old 11-09-2015, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter_29 View Post
Anyone know what the state of getting an 1000/1100 repaired? My upgraded 1000 just went out of warranty. The other night I used the lens zoom for the first time in ages and it clunked when engaged. The memory recall didn't get the image to the right spot and I had to resetup the position/zoom/focus. I live 1500 miles from my original dealer so that won't do me much good.
I've had three of them and they all do that on mine (intermittent "clunking"). The manual even mentions there is no guarantee that zoom will get you back to the exact same spot every time. You might try it a few more times and see if it is really off more than you can stand (you may need to save the new location after it is "off"). I've given up and just lived with it and increased my overscan and many times I can live with the lack of precision.

Once you send it off for repair, you are taking some risks.

Matt

UMR on HDR vs 4K: The benefit of greater saturation and luminance capability is...not very evident in all images unlike more pixels which can be seen in every scene.
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post #12174 of 13932 Old 11-09-2015, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by turls View Post
I've had three of them and they all do that on mine (intermittent "clunking"). The manual even mentions there is no guarantee that zoom will get you back to the exact same spot every time. You might try it a few more times and see if it is really off more than you can stand (you may need to save the new location after it is "off"). I've given up and just lived with it and increased my overscan and many times I can live with the lack of precision.

Once you send it off for repair, you are taking some risks.
Good to know. I really don't use the feature much. The only time I do is when I want to play a first person shooter (the big screen just makes me sick to my stomach with all of the motion).

It was off by a good 2-3 inches the first time I tried it as well as being out of focus. I tried it a few more times and it would clunk... never had that happen but then again I don't use the feature much.

I will just ask it kindly to not break I thought the 4k upgrade HDMI board was going bad too but I believe that turned out to be my surround processor. I just replaced my old Onkyo clunker with a new Marantz 7702 mk2. I have been holding out for 4k/HDCP2.2 switching for ages!
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post #12175 of 13932 Old 11-12-2015, 07:04 AM
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Hello,

I have just written an article about the calibrations REC709 and DCI-P3 for the Sony VW1100ES, in French: http://performances-home-cinema.fr/2...sony-vw1100es/

Google translate : https://translate.google.com/transla...%2F&edit-text=

Regards
Alexandre
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post #12176 of 13932 Old 11-12-2015, 07:34 AM
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Hello,

I have just written an article about the calibrations REC709 and DCI-P3 for the Sony VW1100ES, in French: http://performances-home-cinema.fr/2...sony-vw1100es/

Google translate : https://translate.google.com/transla...%2F&edit-text=

Regards
Alexandre
Merci pour le partage
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post #12177 of 13932 Old 11-13-2015, 03:55 AM
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Merci pour le partage
De rien
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post #12178 of 13932 Old 11-13-2015, 10:14 AM
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Would someone mind telling me again please the difference between HDMI 1 & 2.
I think HDMI 2 is locked into just 4K sources, is that correct?


Does HDMI 1 only accept 1080?

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post #12179 of 13932 Old 11-13-2015, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Would someone mind telling me again please the difference between HDMI 1 & 2.
I think HDMI 2 is locked into just 4K sources, is that correct?


Does HDMI 1 only accept 1080?
HDMI 1 can take 1080P and down sources. HDMI 2 can take 4K and down sources.

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post #12180 of 13932 Old 11-13-2015, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
HDMI 1 can take 1080P and down sources. HDMI 2 can take 4K and down sources.
Thanks for that Mike. So HDMI 1 will never accept anything above 1080p, correct?

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