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post #12331 of 14296 Old 11-19-2015, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
BTW: UV and heat have NOTHING at all to do with this (in contrary). Everyone who says otherwise is not as much of an expert as he claims to be.Regards, Ekki
Good to see your clarification on JVC not losing contrast.
But, how about Sony 1000/1100?
Have you seen the loss of contrast in the Sony 1100/1000, after about 1000 hours?
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post #12332 of 14296 Old 11-19-2015, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Exactly, in case of a Gamma drift, you have to use the autocal which fixes the internal gamma.
There is no(!) contrast loss.


BTW: UV and heat have NOTHING at all to do with this (in contrary). Everyone who says otherwise is not as much of an expert as he claims to be.


Regards,
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When will your test of the new JVC models come online?
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post #12333 of 14296 Old 11-19-2015, 05:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Good to see your clarification on JVC not losing contrast.
But, how about Sony 1000/1100?
Have you seen the loss of contrast in the Sony 1100/1000, after about 1000 hours?
I have said the JVC looses no contrast and the Sony does, when are you guys going to belive me??
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post #12334 of 14296 Old 11-19-2015, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
BTW: UV and heat have NOTHING at all to do with this (in contrary). Everyone who says otherwise is not as much of an expert as he claims to be.


Regards,
Ekki
My contact is a professional calibrator and engineer. He has worked with them on the issue and stressed his concerns with the professional/commercial line of 4K projectors.

If it is not heat and UV causing eventual panel degradation, then please discuss your theory on what is causing it?

Last edited by G-Rex; 11-23-2015 at 02:34 PM.
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post #12335 of 14296 Old 11-19-2015, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
My understanding is that the only difference between the HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 inputs is that the former does not have HDCP 2.2. But both inputs could accept non-copy-protected 4K signals.
Sorry, I was only thinking about copy protected content, like BD and 4K BD.

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post #12336 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I have said the JVC looses no contrast and the Sony does, when are you guys going to belive me??
Andreas21, I mean no disrespect to your observations. Simply, I am asking for the opinion of Cine4home. If I recall correctly, you yourself made a post suggesting that we ask him.

I have no doubt that you have made accurate statements, to the best of your knowledge, which by the way, is a lot more than mine.

Many of us are only trying to understand the extent to which, this problem exists. Limited to certain batches or whether Sony has been addressing it without admitting fault. As you know, we cannot assume that Sony would come out and admit fault, even if true, too easily.

Anxiously, I am waiting for other owners of the 1100es to post the contrast readings. I am hoping that your observation is in the minority and am worried that yours might be in the majority.

With all due respect, and as far as I know, the 1100es is the best projector on the market today and I am hoping re-confirmation from existing owners.. because eventually I want to buy the 1100es. Mike Garrett is offering an extremely tempting price on the JVC 600.. Almost, I bought it.. It was that good of a deal but I remain steadfast in the superiority of the picture of a Sony 1000/1100es.

Thank you for your understanding..
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post #12337 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RS3771 View Post
There's definitely some truth to this I think. I've been scratching my head over what on Earth happened to my Sony's (1100) black levels since about six months - I've had the PJ since 2 years.
Any possibility of you measuring the on/off contrast of your 1100es?

PS: Andreas21 - please don't say "when will you believe me" again.. We believe you.. As one of my favorite presidents - President Reagan said "Trust but verify".
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post #12338 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Andreas21, I mean no disrespect to your observations. Simply, I am asking for the opinion of Cine4home. If I recall correctly, you yourself made a post suggesting that we ask him.

I have no doubt that you have made accurate statements, to the best of your knowledge, which by the way, is a lot more than mine.

Many of us are only trying to understand the extent to which, this problem exists. Limited to certain batches or whether Sony has been addressing it without admitting fault. As you know, we cannot assume that Sony would come out and admit fault, even if true, too easily.

Anxiously, I am waiting for other owners of the 1100es to post the contrast readings. I am hoping that your observation is in the minority and am worried that yours might be in the majority.

With all due respect, and as far as I know, the 1100es is the best projector on the market today and I am hoping re-confirmation from existing owners.. because eventually I want to buy the 1100es. Mike Garrett is offering an extremely tempting price on the JVC 600.. Almost, I bought it.. It was that good of a deal but I remain steadfast in the superiority of the picture of a Sony 1000/1100es.

Thank you for your understanding..
My 600 sold a few days after I offered it to you.

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post #12339 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Uh....my contact is a professional calibrator and engineer. He has worked with them on the issue and stressed his concerns with the professional/commercial line of 4K projectors. Seems more than qualified to me.

If it is not heat and UV causing eventual panel degradation, then please discuss your theory on what is causing it?
I don't know if we have the same source or not, but if we are talking about degradation of organic elements, I also don't understand what is so far fetched about heat and/or UV being an issue?

Sony's already been called to the carpet on this previously, I'm sure the truth is out there somewhere. But I don't know what other explanation would make sense.
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post #12340 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 07:53 AM
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It is unfortunate really. I hope this is not a widespread problem. You would think that a company like Sony would make sure they had these issues handled, especially given their history with SXRD. At least if it is heat/UV related owners may be able to take some proactive measures. It would be nice is people in the know could chime in with some additional theories. From an engineering perspective, things don't just occur randomly. If it is indeed a design issue, Sony should have a root cause and some corrective actions. It would be pretty sad if Sony can skirt accountability if there is an issue.
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post #12341 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 10:35 AM
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Ok guy´s


Measurred with my probely not very accurate lightmeter ( LM200), but maybe it measure to much OR to Little !?


My 1100 has 1443 hours on the lamp. ( I normally use it low lamp mode - plenty of light on my 110" wide screen ).


With 0/100 IRE and iris off , high lamp mode, with contrast at max ( White clipping arround 235 - best case / highst native CR scenario ? ) 22600 lux : 2,6 lux = 8692 native on/off
With high lamp and contrast at 87 ( no clipping to 252 ) : 7798
With low lamp and contrast at 87 ( my normal setting ) : 6890


With high lamp, Iris on full, dynamic CR is between : 458718 - 596333 ( the meter has a resolution of 0,1 Lux, and the Black level is 0,3? lux about 15 cm from lens - needs to go that close to measurre it, with the DI on ).




dj

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post #12342 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 10:53 AM
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@G-Rex
I do not want to offend anyone, but an "expert" should not spread false information. The claim that D-ILA projectors lose contrast is as false as the claim that SXRD / D-ILA suffers from UV and heat.

@turls
SXRD / D-ILA are inorganic.

@audvid
A heavy Gamma / Color space drift with the Sony HW series is already being discussed for over a year in Germany. Some older HW/VW machines show also a contrast loss (not all though). Again, these things have nothing to do with excessive use. In contrary, heavy used machines hardly degrade at all.


The 4K models do not show the same Gamma drift / CS-shrinkage because of their PWM gamma. However, if the black level of the 4K models can degrade under certain circumstances (like the HW series), we started to check last week.




Regards,
Ekki
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post #12343 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 10:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post
Ok guy´s


Measurred with my probely not very accurate lightmeter ( LM200), but maybe it measure to much OR to Little !?


My 1100 has 1443 hours on the lamp. ( I normally use it low lamp mode - plenty of light on my 110" wide screen ).


With 0/100 IRE and iris off , high lamp mode, with contrast at max ( White clipping arround 235 - best case / highst native CR scenario ? ) 22600 lux : 2,6 lux = 8692 native on/off
With high lamp and contrast at 87 ( no clipping to 252 ) : 7798
With low lamp and contrast at 87 ( my normal setting ) : 6890


With high lamp, Iris on full, dynamic CR is between : 458718 - 596333 ( the meter has a resolution of 0,1 Lux, and the Black level is 0,3? lux about 15 cm from lens - needs to go that close to measurre it, with the DI on ).




dj
Your contrast is then cut in half so to say, but your meter is not the best to measure the contrast on your 1100 and with the DI on it is meaningless.
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post #12344 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Your contrast is then cut in half so to say
( I dont know that for sure, because I sadly didnt measure it, when it was new - so the new CR is unknown ) , but your meter is not the best to measure the contrast on your 1100 and with the DI on it is meaningless.

The measure with DI on, was just for fun and not more or less meaningles, then the JVC DI CR or Epson "DI" CR measurrent - just for comparing the numbers.


When I put a new lamp in it, I will measure again ( with the same meter ) for comparing.



dj
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post #12345 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 12:41 PM
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Okay guys the obvious question nobody has mentioned yet - if Sony SXRD projectors do show contrast loss within the factory warranty period, does Sony consider this a warranty issue and will they replace the panels with new ones?

Has anyone had experience with this?

If not, has anyone tried small claims court?

I have never sued anyone but I have read cases in the media where the little guy consumer sues the big guy company in small claims court - and often these huge companies will simply settle with the customer rather than take the trouble to defend themselves in court because it isn't worth their time.

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-From a post on the audio video improvements forum

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post #12346 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 01:48 PM
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Once again, could someone please explain the theory of how a lack of use could cause sxrd panel degradation and/or light engine damage, while high use, in low or high lamp mode, with its associated heat and UV radiation actually prevents or slows panel damage?

Just can't see any logic in that theory at all.
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post #12347 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Once again, could someone please explain the theory of how a lack of use could cause sxrd panel degradation and/or light engine damage, while high use, in low or high lamp mode, with its associated heat and UV radiation actually prevents or slows panel damage?

Just can't see any logic in that theory at all.

I feel happy, I use my 1100 every night!
Im good to go, no contrast loss!
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post #12348 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 02:29 PM
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I feel happy, I use my 1100 every night!
Im good to go, no contrast loss!

I'm not particularly concerned about my VW600 either. Black levels and contrast look fine. I think some folks around here get way too OCD about some of this stuff.


It will take dozens of measurements with dozens of projectors, using the same equipment and methodology, over hundreds of hours. I just don't think the scattershot reports and measurements prove anything. And by the time it is proven or not, no doubt my VW600 will be worn out anyway.
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post #12349 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post
The measure with DI on, was just for fun and not more or less meaningles, then the JVC DI CR or Epson "DI" CR measurrent - just for comparing the numbers.


When I put a new lamp in it, I will measure again ( with the same meter ) for comparing.



dj
I measure the JVC´s with the iris on with the Klein K10A with the diffusor on and facing the projector and then it is no problem getting a quite accurate reading. The problem with the VW1100 DI is that it is way to agressive in the dark end and has a useful contrast of about 50000:1 and not the 600000:1 it measures.
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post #12350 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 06:02 PM
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Another obvious question - does the panel degradation stabilize at some level, or is it continuous?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

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post #12351 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 07:09 PM
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I tried using my LX1330B to measure, but it's pretty much only good enough to capture light off the screen and then it's doesn't go low enough to capture black levels at 0% IRE with DI off. (With DI on, I can barely see the screen or around the room). I was hoping to take a measurement before changing lamps. I put in the one that I got from Sony with the upgrade and sent off the dim one with 1872 hours on it (after just over 2 years) to Mack. The new lamp looks great and the contrast is still great. I really don't see a raised black level with my naked eyes from what I remember when first installing the projector. If it has degraded, it is not readily obvious. I plan to do another autocal through the Lumagen using my Chroma 5 at some point, so should have a measured ratio to report at that time. However, I'm not in any rush since I rarely use the Oppo / Lumagen. Nearly all of my viewing is 4K from my HTPC. JRiver and MadVR rock.

I will say this, all projectors could use improved blacks. I know because my latest toy is a LG 65EF9500. The Mrs. and I watched Gravity 3D BD using it's passive glasses and all I can say is WOW. To quote 2010, "it's full of stars". Just amazing contrast. My next projector will need to produce the same contrast / black levers (laser?) or I'll simply wait and save for a much larger OLED. The 1100ES should hopefully last me until then (3-5 years I hope). Honestly, if the LG was 100", I'd sell the Sony tomorrow and not look back. 4K OLED is that good.

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post #12352 of 14296 Old 11-20-2015, 11:43 PM
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Wonder if OLED would degrade over time?
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post #12353 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 02:12 AM
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Wonder if OLED would degrade over time?
WE degrade over time...
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post #12354 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 02:23 AM
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Wonder if OLED would degrade over time?
The black level does not, however the brightness does.
Burn-in effects are also still a problem.
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post #12355 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I tried using my LX1330B to measure, but it's pretty much only good enough to capture light off the screen and then it's doesn't go low enough to capture black levels at 0% IRE with DI off. (With DI on, I can barely see the screen or around the room). I was hoping to take a measurement before changing lamps. I put in the one that I got from Sony with the upgrade and sent off the dim one with 1872 hours on it (after just over 2 years) to Mack. The new lamp looks great and the contrast is still great. I really don't see a raised black level with my naked eyes from what I remember when first installing the projector. If it has degraded, it is not readily obvious. I plan to do another autocal through the Lumagen using my Chroma 5 at some point, so should have a measured ratio to report at that time. However, I'm not in any rush since I rarely use the Oppo / Lumagen. Nearly all of my viewing is 4K from my HTPC. JRiver and MadVR rock.

I will say this, all projectors could use improved blacks. I know because my latest toy is a LG 65EF9500. The Mrs. and I watched Gravity 3D BD using it's passive glasses and all I can say is WOW. To quote 2010, "it's full of stars". Just amazing contrast. My next projector will need to produce the same contrast / black levers (laser?) or I'll simply wait and save for a much larger OLED. The 1100ES should hopefully last me until then (3-5 years I hope). Honestly, if the LG was 100", I'd sell the Sony tomorrow and not look back. 4K OLED is that good.

Steven


Just put the censor, on a tripod, about 10- 15 cm in front off the lens, then it should have light output enought to read it ( my meter is at same ( missing ? )quality / level as your´s ) at 0 IRE.


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post #12356 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post
Just put the censor, on a tripod, about 10- 15 cm in front off the lens, then it should have light output enought to read it ( my meter is at same ( missing ? )quality / level as your´s ) at 0 IRE.
Sure, that works for 0 IRE, but way to bright for 100 IRE from my experience. How are you measuring 100 IRE at short distance facing the projector?

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post #12357 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 11:50 AM
 
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Sure, that works for 0 IRE, but way to bright for 100 IRE from my experience. How are you measuring 100 IRE at short distance facing the projector?
Pull it far back enough until it doesn't overpower the meter. As long as it doesn't move you can still get an accurate contrast measurement.

Eyes shouldn't be used to comment on this issue. We all know everyone sees differently and that a variety of factors alters out perception on contrast.

Thank you Ekki for your comments. Your presence here on the forum is always appreciated. Looks like I sold my 1100ES just in time. I'm looking forward to my RS500 arriving in a few weeks.

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post #12358 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 12:10 PM
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I don't think a root cause was agreed upon so it would have been interesting to hear more info from cine4home.
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post #12359 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
Okay guys the obvious question nobody has mentioned yet - if Sony SXRD projectors do show contrast loss within the factory warranty period, does Sony consider this a warranty issue and will they replace the panels with new ones?

Has anyone had experience with this?

If not, has anyone tried small claims court?

I have never sued anyone but I have read cases in the media where the little guy consumer sues the big guy company in small claims court - and often these huge companies will simply settle with the customer rather than take the trouble to defend themselves in court because it isn't worth their time.
I can only say I was part of a class action lawsuit where the courts ruled against Sony for their SXRD panel degradation that involved my 2007 60" SXRD RPTV when it was out of warranty. It was happening on all of their RPTVs using SXRD. I am not shocked this is happening on their front projectors as for years they had been dealing with this issue along with the infamous "blob" problem (uniformity blotches). They could never fix the problem. Mine never got blobs, but my contrast level deteriorated to horrendous levels and it was hard to get my display calibrated well to correct severe blue push that was happening. My blacks became bluish, so I had to take photos to prove it. I was given the option of $300, or a large discount on an LCD (I was offered two different models). The settlement for me was in 2011 if I recall. So, there is some precedence involved here if a class action happens regarding the front projection side, but I am not an attorney.
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Last edited by DavidHir; 11-21-2015 at 12:29 PM.
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post #12360 of 14296 Old 11-21-2015, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Pull it far back enough until it doesn't overpower the meter. As long as it doesn't move you can still get an accurate contrast measurement.

Eyes shouldn't be used to comment on this issue. We all know everyone sees differently and that a variety of factors alters out perception on contrast.

Thank you Ekki for your comments. Your presence here on the forum is always appreciated. Looks like I sold my 1100ES just in time.
Of course I tried that before posting earlier. Every use of this model meter when facing the projector overloads it when displaying 100 IRE. It displays a 1. If I can get it to correctly measure 100 IRE facing the projector (vs. off the screen), I could use it at the same distance that 0 IRE registers (with DI off).

Perhaps there's a way to get this meter to work, but I haven't figured it out. That's why I asked the poster that owns one to respond on how to measure at 100 IRE.

I only used it facing the screen to determine lamp degradation over time instead of breaking out the Chroma 5. It works well for that.

My eyes tell me that it's not a significant issue, at least with DI on full, but I want to know for sure which is why I'm trying to take measurements.

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Last edited by stevenjw; 11-21-2015 at 12:33 PM.
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