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Old 11-23-2015, 04:10 PM
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As for future-proofing, I certainly get the desire to feel future-proofed. Especially going for a really big purchase.
Personally I've pretty much given up on the idea of trying to buy anything future proofed. It's just that hard to predict the future. Even if we are talking about buying into a single technological advance coming up, e.g. 4K, technology's advance these days means something new and desirable is likely to show up within a year or two (...HDR...higher bit depth...extended color space...better contrast...etc). So only buy something on the grounds it will somehow improve the experience of the content I have available - immediate gratification as it were. Anything else down the line is gravy.

I believe that many Sony VW1000 and 1100 owners, while miffed about lack of hoped for support for widening 4K/UHD standards, nonetheless appreciated that the Sony projector was worth it even on the grounds of it's performance with existing HD content these last years.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:25 PM
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- Sony never releases native contrast numbers for any of their home theater projectors,

- They did launch countermeasures, for example in their new HW65 series.


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Old 11-23-2015, 04:57 PM
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Ekki:

What counter measures did they employ in their new HW65 series?
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Maybe it is like a frog in water going from cold to hot.

I was worried about Epson first shot at basically LCoS might have some issues compared to those who were multiple generations in, but maybe Epson's first generation is better in some important ways.

Some people were buying these Sonys to future proof themselves, but now it sounds like their futures were much brighter than expected (at least for black). Sorry, couldn't help myself.

People may remember how many thousands of dollars extra they are supposed to pay in the US for that great backing Sony US would give them. Seems like people should now wonder whether that will have bought them much. If Sony does something for US owners who paid the extra then this would be a case for buying from the Sony US channel, if not then doesn't seem like those owners are much better off than people who bought from overseas. At least the amount a product can depreciate is less if you pay less.

It seems to me like there should be a lot of data from Sonys in the DCI market, although more hours per month might actually be a good thing if it is like Cine4home reported with the VW95s.

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I believe their first generation was a few years ago and Epson pulled them.

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Old 11-23-2015, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I believe their first generation was a few years ago and Epson pulled them.
Good point. I had forgotten about that. So, maybe "first real generation" or "second generation". Either way I figured we pretty much knew what we were getting with Sony and JVC at least. If the Epson's are more stable then hopefully they continue making more products with these. I'm personally not willing to pay a large premium for laser, but it is always good to have more competition.

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Old 11-23-2015, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I believe their first generation was a few years ago and Epson pulled them.
Is it true some of those first generation Epsons (LCOQ) actually were sold?


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Old 11-23-2015, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Is it true some of those first generation Epsons (LCOQ) actually were sold?
Yes, a few made it out in the wild.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
It's really disheartening reading about the frustration of Sony owners here - that it comes to this for what has been such a highly lauded, class-leading projector.

The thing is, it seems pretty recent to me. I've been reading very happy satisfied reports of the Sony flagship owners for years.
Given this contrast-loss problem would have been occurring for many years now, why are we suddenly hearing dissatisfaction only now? Or have I missed that this has been an issue for much longer?
I can only give you my perspective on this issue. I tend to agree with the frog analogy, but disagree that the water is boiling now that I've calmed down. I was very skeptical at first concerning statements recently made. I realized that the majority of the dialogue was coming from folks that either sold their projectors or didn't even have one. I'm not saying that's a problem one way or another, just an interesting observation for whatever that's worth. With not much input from others, especially with actual measurements, I figured that the only way to know for sure was to get off my butt, replace my lamp (close to 1900 hours), and take a measurement.

I initially stated before measuring that my VPL-VW1100ES still produces a great picture and asked what should I replace it with. I don't think I'm in the minority here that still thinks this way. I'd still like to know what PJ is out there that's native 4K at under $15K. Time will tell if the new JVCs are better, but they're not native 4K either.

I'd love for the blacks to be better, but either 3,700:1 isn't that bad or more likely with DI enabled in my bat-cave, it's not a show-stopper under real life observation of content or cause to sell my projector at this time. I reserve the right to change my mind, but would need to know that there's something better out there to take it's place. The unit I have has no issues with uniformity or anything else. If I didn't take a measurement, I'd probably not even know that the CR dropped. As I said, ignorance is bliss in this case.

Part of my displeasure with Sony is also due to how the upgrade kit was handled. I strongly voiced my feelings concerning the bundling of the Mother-board with stuff I didn't want or need. Right after what amounted to a forced upgrade to maintain any hope of watching UHD BDs, Sony releases a better version of the puck. Then we find out that the MB upgrade doesn't provide HDR support, and the final kick in the pants was the expiration of the vouchers that were provided! These were supposed to be without an expire date. As such, I still have a big problem with how Sony does business and treats it's customers.

In the interest of full disclosure, I suspect that I didn't pay what most did for their new 1100ES. I got a new, unopened unit as part of deeply discounted sale. As such, my depreciation is a lot less which makes this issue more palatable. Given that I still have time left on my warranty, I will contact Sony directly concerning this issue to see what they have to say. I think that will go a long way toward determining my feelings on this issue and Sony as a whole.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:42 PM
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The quoted post from Wolfgang's is interesting. It seems that a select few people here (Cine4home and Wolfgang) know what the actual cause is for the SXRD panel degradation and subsequent contrast drop. If it's not heat and uv then a good start for all of us is to learn the true cause. Some fluctuations in the "out of the box" spec is acceptable, but if the drops are drastic...Sony should be proactive about it and remedy the problem (if they are able).

If forum members organize a group funded tour for a top calibrator, to measure a large sample of 1000/1100s, Sony would most likely feel they have to listen. Then perhaps we should contact Sony collectively to either extend the warranty on the SXRD panels/optical block, and/or give us a prorated cost replacement of an improved SXRD panel/optical block, with hopefully much slower degradation. If we as consumers absorb a portion of the cost (years used vs life expected) then Sony may be receptive.

The question is, does an improved SXRD panel/optical block for the 1100 exist? Not worth the trouble of installing the same panel/block and have contrast drop drastically and rapidly again. That would serve no purpose. The goal here should be us getting are projectors fixed (if the problem is proven real and widespread) and not running Sony through the mud. That may hurt our cause and be counterproductive for future Sony home theater projector development. I am not alleging that anyone here is running Sony down at this point.

I still look at my 1100 and think....what an exceptional picture. I hope my projector is one that shows only a small loss of contrast. All this talk has me a bit concerned though.

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Old 11-23-2015, 05:47 PM
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I'm on board for a group funded calibrator measurement. Count me in. Also I will try to measure my contrast and report back.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
The question is, does an improved SXRD panel/optical block for the 1100 exist? Not worth the trouble of installing the same panel/block and have contrast drop drastically and rapidly again. That would serve no purpose.
Agreed. This is exactly what happened with many SXRD RPTV owners. You can read the seemingly countless stories in the RPTV forum, but a number of owners went through multiple blocks only to have the same problem eventually surface again.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Back then LCD chips and variants had organic materials in them, which if I recall correctly, was the reason they deteriorated over time due to light and heat. I believe that manufacturers switched to inorganic materials to address that some time ago.
I'm not sure, but the various reports of today's Sony projectors compared to the previous RPTVs are eerily similar in some ways.


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Old 11-23-2015, 06:31 PM
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BTW,

The original 1000 was spec'd at 2,000 ANSI-lumens. Same with the 1100 I presume?

I'm curious: What measurements were people getting for max calibrated lumens from these projectors (low and high lamp mode)?

Thanks.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I can only give you my perspective on this issue. I tend to agree with the frog analogy, but disagree that the water is boiling now that I've calmed down. I was very skeptical at first concerning statements recently made. I realized that the majority of the dialogue was coming from folks that either sold their projectors or didn't even have one. I'm not saying that's a problem one way or another, just an interesting observation for whatever that's worth. With not much input from others, especially with actual measurements, I figured that the only way to know for sure was to get off my butt, replace my lamp (close to 1900 hours), and take a measurement.

I initially stated before measuring that my VPL-VW1100ES still produces a great picture and asked what should I replace it with. I don't think I'm in the minority here that still thinks this way. I'd still like to know what PJ is out there that's native 4K at under $15K. Time will tell if the new JVCs are better, but they're not native 4K either.

I'd love for the blacks to be better, but either 3,700:1 isn't that bad or more likely with DI enabled in my bat-cave, it's not a show-stopper under real life observation of content or cause to sell my projector at this time. I reserve the right to change my mind, but would need to know that there's something better out there to take it's place. The unit I have has no issues with uniformity or anything else. If I didn't take a measurement, I'd probably not even know that the CR dropped. As I said, ignorance is bliss in this case.

Part of my displeasure with Sony is also due to how the upgrade kit was handled. I strongly voiced my feelings concerning the bundling of the Mother-board with stuff I didn't want or need. Right after what amounted to a forced upgrade to maintain any hope of watching UHD BDs, Sony releases a better version of the puck. Then we find out that the MB upgrade doesn't provide HDR support, and the final kick in the pants was the expiration of the vouchers that were provided! These were supposed to be without an expire date. As such, I still have a big problem with how Sony does business and treats it's customers.

In the interest of full disclosure, I suspect that I didn't pay what most did for their new 1100ES. I got a new, unopened unit as part of deeply discounted sale. As such, my depreciation is a lot less which makes this issue more palatable. Given that I still have time left on my warranty, I will contact Sony directly concerning this issue to see what they have to say. I think that will go a long way toward determining my feelings on this issue and Sony as a whole.
I'd say the only unfortunate thing is that, especially once we have native 4K DMDs, a DLP projector will give a better image with higher ANSI contrast, higher on/off contrast, better motion performance, better 3D peformance, and more lumen potential than what your 1100ES currently has to offer. You've definitely had one of the best looking images out there for the past few years and it's kind of sad that we're now on the cusp of UHD BD and the performance in contrast is now much lower and that you won't be able to see the kind of contrast performance you were getting on 1080p BD with this new format.

Next year we'll most definitely see 4K panels from JVC, Epson, and I hope TI as well. It's inevitable. From what I saw from the LS10000 Epson is definitely on to something if they can improve their technology in a few key areas and if JVC can improve ANSI contrast with a slightly nicer lens and keep the performance standards they've created this year with a native 4K projector then I think the image from that machine will most definitely be better than the 1100ES. We're talking a razor sharp, high contrast, high brightness image with decent motion handling. So the "4K landscape" will definitely change drastically just in time for the of UHD BD (maybe slightly late). I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that the 1100ES's weakest attribute thus far is the native 4K panels because there's really only a handful of movies out right now and none of them look that much better than the 1080p blu-ray counterpart. It's almost as if we payed the "4K" tax and never really got anything back from it in time to say this unit still has the best image quality out there with that content. This time next year there will probably be at least 2-3 units that will be fighting the 1100ES for that spot. I just think asking the question "what else out there is 4K" is kind of an odd one considering what I've just said unless you're very serious about owning only one projector for the a long, long time.

Last edited by Seegs108; 11-23-2015 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:49 PM
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I just measured my unit and no degradation so far at 124hrs. I used Darin P's notes from way back to get some baseline numbers. There can be so much variation in measurement and from meter-to meter that personal measurements can't really be absolute. However, with consistent measure we should be able to see an order of magnitude change.

Low Lamp, 45 brightness, 90 contrast ; 21,290:1 On/Off, 600-700:1 ANSI @ Projector lens, Auto Full looks to be about a 30:1 multiple per my measure.


* Just for giggles, I measured my Barco DLP also. (P3 color points, Dual Lamp, Iris closed completely), 8300: 1 On/Off , 1000-1100:1 ANSI @ projector lens


* I plan to measure every 25 hrs and report back
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Agreed. This is exactly what happened with many SXRD RPTV owners. You can read the seemingly countless stories in the RPTV forum, but a number of owners went through multiple blocks only to have the same problem eventually surface again.
I had one of the first series SXRD TV's. My SXRD TV last just long enough that I did not have any recourse for replacement. I was past the time period. I ended up giving it away. Everything and everybody had a strong green cast to them.

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Old 11-23-2015, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I just think asking the question "what else out there is 4K" is kind of an odd one considering what I've just said unless you're very serious about owning only one projector for the a long, long time.
Odd? Tell us again, how many projectors you go through a year... There are folks out there still running a Qualia.

I was used to spending under $5K for JVCs (and an Epson) every year or two. I'd get a good deal from AVS when the new models came out (like this time of year) and sell mine before then, if I could. I was tired of that and wanted to get off that cycle. When 4K became the next big thing and I saw how nice the 1000ES looked, I set my sights on one. I was able to get one for a great deal and figured that, yes, with the extra lamps, longer warranty and 4K ready (so I was lead to believe), this would be the last upgrade I needed for quite some time. Nothing wrong with enjoying the best BDs could look for the past two years while enjoying the tease of 4K shorts and other content at what's to come. Since I got off the upgrade cycle and at a really good price, why wouldn't I be happy and expect to avoid another upgrade for years? Put it another way, if Sony delivered full 18GB HDR with the upgrade and the contrast / PQ stayed the same, would you have sold yours? Why would you? That was my expectation when I bought it. So shame on me for trusting Sony with their BS upgrade kit deal and that the PQ would last for years. The contrast drop hasn't even outlasted the warranty.

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Old 11-23-2015, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
I still look at my 1100 and think....what an exceptional picture. I hope my projector is one that shows only a small loss of contrast. All this talk has me a bit concerned though.
The only way to know for sure is to measure your CR. Of course, ignorance is bliss, so perhaps you should stop reading this thread and enjoy your exceptional picture. In some ways, I wish that I had.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This was posted in the 5000ES laser thread in the $20000+ subforum. I asked Wolfgang if he had talked to the Sony engineers when they were there temporarily installing the 5000ES about the loss in contrast. His english isn't that great but the point he's made still gets across:
Here is what Wolfgang posted:

Yes I talk about the cr.drop with the VIPs from Sony during their stay here.
Every pr. suffer from degradation over time one more than the other but Sony have taken action to address this issue they told me.
The last generation 300/500Models already got some improvements with should make it better and as Sony told me they working on further improvements on this as well.
When a VW1100 (I have measure about 9-10K:1 cr. from 5 units in early 2012)witch have 9500:1 cr.and it lost over some years some cr. so you end up with about 4000 to 5000:1.
That looks together in combination with a dynamic Iris not bad!
Now as the 5000 have almost double this cr. in the beginning you should have in some years may 9000:1 a good number very close to the VW1100 number when you compare it with a brandnew one.


How can he say this and still think of buying the W5000ES? A projector loosing 50%+ of its contrast in a couple of years or less is not a very good projector and to me it should not be sold! Sony need to get their **** toghether and fix this problem. A VW1100 with 4000:1 and a DI does not look anywhere near what it did when new and it is easily beaten by a JVC X500 in that state as it also looses brightness during that time. After a lampchange my VW1000 only measured 20% more light in high lamp than my X500 in high lamp and this was around 1200 (Sony) lumens. When new my VW1000 measured 1800 lumens calibrated.

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
I just measured my unit and no degradation so far at 124hrs. I used Darin P's notes from way back to get some baseline numbers. There can be so much variation in measurement and from meter-to meter that personal measurements can't really be absolute. However, with consistent measure we should be able to see an order of magnitude change.

Low Lamp, 45 brightness, 90 contrast ; 21,290:1 On/Off, 600-700:1 ANSI @ Projector lens, Auto Full looks to be about a 30:1 multiple per my measure.


* Just for giggles, I measured my Barco DLP also. (P3 color points, Dual Lamp, Iris closed completely), 8300: 1 On/Off , 1000-1100:1 ANSI @ projector lens


* I plan to measure every 25 hrs and report back
124 hours is way to early to show any degradation.

Brightness at 45?? This must cause serious black crush?

And another thing: those contrast numbers seem very high both on/off and ANSI on both the Sony and Barco are you sure your meter is correct?

Edit: saw the Barco iris was completely closed.

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Here is what Wolfgang posted:

Yes I talk about the cr.drop with the VIPs from Sony during their stay here.
Every pr. suffer from degradation over time one more than the other but Sony have taken action to address this issue they told me.
The last generation 300/500Models already got some improvements with should make it better and as Sony told me they working on further improvements on this as well.
When a VW1100 (I have measure about 9-10K:1 cr. from 5 units in early 2012)witch have 9500:1 cr.and it lost over some years some cr. so you end up with about 4000 to 5000:1.
That looks together in combination with a dynamic Iris not bad!
Now as the 5000 have almost double this cr. in the beginning you should have in some years may 9000:1 a good number very close to the VW1100 number when you compare it with a brandnew one.


How can he say this and still think of buying the W5000ES? A projector loosing 50%+ of its contrast in a couple of years or less is not a very good projector and to me it should not be sold! Sony need to get their **** toghether and fix this problem. A VW1100 with 4000:1 and a DI does not look anywhere near what it did when new and it is easily beaten by a JVC X500 in that state as it also looses brightness during that time. After a lampchange my VW1000 only measured 20% more light in high lamp than my X500 in high lamp and this was around 1200 (Sony) lumens. When new my VW1000 measured 1800 lumens calibrated.
How can Wolfgang accept that, I don't know.

At 2,5 year 1450h I have a contrast drop of massive 2100:1, imagine in another 2,5 year I'm down at, maybe 800-1000:1 That's exiting!
I don't think it will stop it's downgrade.
I will say my VW1000, as it stands now, it is my last Sony.
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Old 11-23-2015, 11:48 PM
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After a lampchange my VW1000 only measured 20% more light in high lamp than my X500 in high lamp and this was around 1200 (Sony) lumens. When new my VW1000 measured 1800 lumens calibrated.
WTH? Are you now saying that your Sony produced 33% less lumens with a new lamp than when new? This is in addition to raised blacks levels and poorer CR.

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
WTH? Are you now saying that your Sony produced 33% less lumens with a new lamp than when new? This is in addition to raised blacks levels and poorer CR.
Yes, and this also causes some of the lower on/off of corse.

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Old 11-24-2015, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Yes, and this also causes some of the lower on/off of corse.

On/Off contrast variation with Iris OFF, has nothing to do with lumen output. It is always the same, lower lumen on top, gives lower lumen at bottom.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
On/Off contrast variation with Iris OFF, has nothing to do with lumen output. It is always the same, lower lumen on top, gives lower lumen at bottom.
The Sonys loose both blacklevel and brightness due to the degradation. Mine lost around 30% brightness with a new lamp at 800 hours compared to new and I tested 3 different lamps.

So some of the contrast loss comes from the bright end and some of it from the dark end.

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Old 11-24-2015, 04:34 AM
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124 hours is way to early to show any degradation.

Brightness at 45?? This must cause serious black crush?

And another thing: those contrast numbers seem very high both on/off and ANSI on both the Sony and Barco are you sure your meter is correct?

Edit: saw the Barco iris was completely closed.

1. Minimal to no black crush with my screen with the Sony. PD is set at 52 and starts to crush below 49.

2.The numbers do seem a bit high, but this is an exercise for measurement over time. It is a baseline of measure. The room, screen, meter and measuring techniques will be my controls. I don't get to caught up in the numbers as long as the order of magnitude is correct. I am shooting for consistent measure.

3. The Barco is a PD unit that is quite bright. It has a manual iris that I use to get the light output down. This unit has a special lens for the increased resolution rated at 66 lp/mm and a special coating, so the high ANSI doesn't surprise me.

4. Let's take the absolute numbers out of the equation for a second. The Sony has approximately 2.5x the on/off contrast of the PD/Barco and about 0.6x the ANSI contrast in my setting. The on/off ratio between units is one that I will watch closely over time because DLP's tend to be extremely stable. This should provide another useful data point.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
The Sonys loose both blacklevel and brightness due to the degradation. Mine lost around 30% brightness with a new lamp at 800 hours compared to new and I tested 3 different lamps.
.
Have replaced four bulbs so far... all return the pj to the same level of brightness [after calibration] as when I first had it...

I just wish I'd tracked the contrast ratio so that I could say 100% I am seeing loss, rather than just suspecting I am.

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Old 11-24-2015, 05:09 AM
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I have never heard of a brightness loss, after lamp replacement, 1000/1100 series Sony projectors. I got some detailed feedback (yesterday) from my calibrator, who unprovoked, commented that JVCs tend to lose light output over time, even with a new lamp. He did not comment on any loss of light output on the Sonys.

Do we really want to go there?

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Old 11-24-2015, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
I have never heard of a brightness loss, after lamp replacement, 1000/1100 series Sony projectors. I got some detailed feedback (yesterday) from my calibrator, who unprovoked, commented that JVCs have shown brightness loss.

Do we really want to go there?
Cine4home tells a different story. I don't know if your calibrator is referring to older JVC units but the newest generation units do not show brightness or contrast loss (or a shrinking color gamut) after at least 1000 hours. I say at least 1000 hours because this is the extent in which cine4home measured a number of X500's they sold:

http://cine4home.de/tests/projektore...x500_test2.htm

As you can see from their measurements, the units they measured averaged NO LOSS of contrast or brightness over a 600-1000 hour time span. This is quite the opposite on Sony 4K units, especially regarding contrast. If we're seeing up to an 80% loss in contrast why is it so hard to believe that the loss is not 100% in black level?

I really think if you want to continue this conversation, please invite your calibrator to come on the forum to discuss his findings. I think it's important for this conversation to have numbers and objective data to back up arguments.

Ekki stated he's already started to measure Sony 4K units last week to do a similar write up that he did with the JVC units. His findings will be interesting and I think will tell the same story that Andreas is telling now.
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Last edited by Seegs108; 11-24-2015 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Have replaced four bulbs so far... all return the pj to the same level of brightness [after calibration] as when I first had it...

I just wish I'd tracked the contrast ratio so that I could say 100% I am seeing loss, rather than just suspecting I am.
Of corse this could be because of lamp variations, but when checking 3 different I higly doubt it. Do you still get around 1800 calibrated lumens from yours as it should be? Have you measured your on/off, it should be minimum 10000:1 probably more without degradation.

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