Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 418 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12511 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
No, a regeneration is not possible.


Regards,
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Ekki:

I really wish you would be more specific in your responses, you imply that you have further information than you are sharing, it is a bit disingenuous.
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post #12512 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 06:25 AM
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Ekki seems to know more. Ekki, if you know conclusively that it's not heat and uv causing the problem, and you know the panel can't improve...then you must know the cause. Please share.

Last edited by G-Rex; 11-26-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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post #12513 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What am I supposed to contribute, If I do not have any information. That does not mean that I have not asked Sony for information on this matter.
Look, I happened to be on the phone with Mike when he was trying to get information on this issue. Craig said some things I imagine he regrets but Mike hasn't waded into the fray except to point out that he had one of the RPTV's that was affected back when Sony was making those. Silence should not be considered contempt or a callous disregard about this issue.

If you would step back a bit, you would realize that at the moment there is very little actual evidence to back up some rather amazing and overreaching claims of picture degradation. I understand how the cost of the projector is driving this train, but there is precious little information right now to back up some of the rhetoric we are seeing.

I'm with every one of you who want to get to the bottom of this issue. We have information from Ekki who has looked a large number of projectors and has shared findings that appear to contraindicate logic. We have a few folks with a wide range of experience and with an even wider range of quality of light meter equipment who have given us information of what their contrast is doing. But the readings have been all over the place which I would posit is understandable. We need more calibrators or engineers to look at this methodically and find out exactly what's affected and how widespread the problem is.

I'm frankly not interested in anymore "I have a buddy who's a master calibrator who says Sony is garbage, but he's too chicken*&*t to come on the forum himself and answer any questions." There's a reason we don't allow hearsay evidence in court trials. How do you rebut someone who won't answer your questions, but just spews things to other people protected by a cloak of anonymity?
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post #12514 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Ekki:

I really wish you would be more specific in your responses.
I had the same frustration about this myself, but I don't see any disingenuousness. I imagine there is much more information about the reviewing and measuring of these projectors on his site. There's also a language barrier. Could someone point to the link for the Cine4home forum where the talk about this is going on? I read the excellent testing they did on the JVC's. They seem to have a good system in place that has a good baseline and controlled results which are two things we really need to see in order to get valid information that would help pin down any issues.
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post #12515 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billqs View Post
Look, I happened to be on the phone with Mike when he was trying to get information on this issue. Craig said some things I imagine he regrets but Mike hasn't waded into the fray except to point out that he had one of the RPTV's that was affected back when Sony was making those. Silence should not be considered contempt or a callous disregard about this issue.

If you would step back a bit, you would realize that at the moment there is very little actual evidence to back up some rather amazing and overreaching claims of picture degradation. I understand how the cost of the projector is driving this train, but there is precious little information right now to back up some of the rhetoric we are seeing.

I'm with every one of you who want to get to the bottom of this issue. We have information from Ekki who has looked a large number of projectors and has shared findings that appear to contraindicate logic. We have a few folks with a wide range of experience and with an even wider range of quality of light meter equipment who have given us information of what their contrast is doing. But the readings have been all over the place which I would posit is understandable. We need more calibrators or engineers to look at this methodically and find out exactly what's affected and how widespread the problem is.

I'm frankly not interested in anymore "I have a buddy who's a master calibrator who says Sony is garbage, but he's too chicken*&*t to come on the forum himself and answer any questions." There's a reason we don't allow hearsay evidence in court trials. How do you rebut someone who won't answer your questions, but just spews things to other people protected by a cloak of anonymity?
Chris did buy the upgrade kit from AV Science, but not his VW1000, While I am not his dealer for the 1000, I will be happy to help him out if I can. I wonder why he did not call out his dealer here rather than me? I do understand, if one of my customers called or emailed me regarding this issue, but as of right now, I do not have any additional information to add. AV Science going to bat for their customers is one of the reasons people buy from us. IF/when I find out more I will let my customers know.

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post #12516 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 08:04 AM
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Often these "master calibrators" engineers and experts don't publicly get involved because of an industry relationship with Sony, JVC, Epson etc...If they publicly cross them, how helpful will the manufacturers be when needed? Shared knowledge between experts and manufacturers will also be stifled. Getting info out there and at the same time not ruffling any feathers is a fine balancing act.

BTW, sometimes hearsay starts the ball rolling and brings true facts to the surface...that's the discovery process, but that doesn't mean that all initial info is in a state to be introduced as evidence. Since I have the emails in my inbox, sharing even anonymously, is better than not at all. If you think differently then that is your opinion and I will leave it at that.

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post #12517 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 08:21 AM
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No actually Craig this is kind of an irresponsible thing to say - especially from someone who sells these very expensive machines for a living. Your response - and Mike Garrett's - ought to be "what can we do to help you guys? We have contacts at Sony. We sell these machines - this is very disturbing news and we as dealers want to get to the bottom of it and help find a solution."

Telling people that a huge contrast drop is no big deal and that these five figure machines are "disposable toys" and that you are gonna "watch a freakin' movie" makes you look like a typical salesman, and nothing more.

And a typical salesman is not what you want to be. You are given much credit and leeway on these forums and you and Mike are in a position of EXTREME PRIVILEGE compared to 99% of AV sales people in the world - you have credibility and a built in customer base due to your presence here. You are not forced to walk the floor at a Magnolia in some Best Buy somewhere.

At $25,000 the 1100ES should not be a "disposable toy" - it should be a machine with top build quality built to last a decade or more.

My Sony ES receiver from 2002 is still going strong. My tube radio from the 1960's still plays music beautifully. My 15 year old Toshiba CRT RPTV still works just fine. My 13 year old Sharp XV-Z9000U 720P DLP looks new.

It is not too much to ask that in 2015 a two year old $25,000 flagship projector doesn't lose 50% or more of its native contrast at less than 2,000 hours of total use.

Other people here have contributed valuable information - you and Mike as the resident Sony dealer reps so far have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion of value (and believe me - that fact isn't lost on observers). Maybe you should change that.

I actually wish I had solid information on this. I don't. My intention isn't to insult anyone. I myself am a projector owner. I own a Sim Lumis. It is essentially obsolete now with 4K right around the corner. It cost more than a VW1100. It was a $ 32,000 disposable toy. Maybe Mike and I can get some information. Mike has more contacts than I do with Sony.


The problem with the internet is there is no voice inflection and it's hard for people to not read things into what is written that weren't intended. My bad. I was " speaking " as a fellow projector owner. I should have just kept quiet.

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post #12518 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 08:32 AM
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With this statement you are saying that this is not a problem and people should not worry and just keep buying Sony projectors from you? I think this will be a huge dent in your credability and this should not be said from a person who makes a living selling projectors!

No, I don't know how a big a problem it is. And until there is a solid conclusion one way or the other, I would probably suggest another projector. Anyone that has ever talked to me or spent time in my theater knows that I don't " sell " projectors anyway. I help people make the best informed purchasing decisions they can.
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post #12519 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 08:50 AM
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Excellent post, chrisreeves.
$25,000 projector is a disposable toy? The person who said it is, either in the 0.5% of the top bracket or he has never in his life spent $25,000 for a toy! "Evaluating" or reselling $25,000 projectors doesn't count.
I wonder what his response would be.. if he takes his $25,000, 2 year old car to the dealer who sold it to him, complaining that his gas mileage is halved or that his engine output is halved.. and the salesman/dealer says "well, cars are disposable" and "oh by the way, I can sell you this new model from another brand!" You wanna bet what his response is going to be?
And yes, I did spend $20k range on projectors, twice, and I did keep them for 10 years. I can't believe that someone would say $25000 projector is "disposable".. Spoken like the typical person who encourages others to spend money but not his own.

Sorry, but if you can afford to spend $25K on a " TV ", it had better be disposable income. Your resale value dropped 50% the minute you installed it and turned it on. My point wasn't to minimize the fact that if projectors are losing contrast - that's not good. It isn't good if it happens - not to you or me. I am a projector owner myself. And yes - my Lumis is an extremely expensive toy that won't bring much money if I sell it.


I'd like to see contrast numbers for all makes and models of home theater projectors - DLP, LCD, SXRD and D ILA - measured periodically over time. W Mayer - who knows more than I do - said that all projectors deteriorate over time. True ? I have no idea. My Lumis hasn't been measured in some time. Maybe it's contrast has deteriorated too.

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post #12520 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 09:05 AM
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Maybe , I can only tell for certain that it happens with the models listed in my post.
The issue happened in all of the SXRD RPTVs. Now, those were worse as color uniformity issues formed along with the large contrast drops. The color gamut also shrunk so colors became de-saturated and no cal would fix it. When my 60" SXRD RPTV was brand new the MLL was around .009 and after a few thousand hours it measured .021.



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post #12521 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 10:42 AM
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Chris did buy the upgrade kit from AV Science, but not his VW1000, While I am not his dealer for the 1000, I will be happy to help him out if I can. I wonder why he did not call out his dealer here rather than me? I do understand, if one of my customers called or emailed me regarding this issue, but as of right now, I do not have any additional information to add. AV Science going to bat for their customers is one of the reasons people buy from us. IF/when I find out more I will let my customers know.
I don't have a problem with my 1100ES (yet, I haven't measured it but I will this weekend and report back) and I'm not asking you to solve it if I did have one Mike - you are right, it would need to go through my own dealer or directly through Sony warranty service. Though if you had happened to have one in stock at the price I got I would've gone through you - the price was too good to pass up.

But this forum is a community, and I think/feel that a little proactive empathy/communication would go a long way for the dealer reps here. I did also buy my JVC 4910 from you as well as my 1100ES upgrade kit - and as you know I inquired two days ago about another JVC from you (great price btw). The main reason I go through you is because I feel you have our back - so silence is not encouraging. I could have bought that upgrade kit from the other dealer (they have one) but I gave you the business because I wanted to.

However I will say Mike that you personally didn't/haven't said anything flippant or dismissive - so I shouldn't have mentioned your name and for that I apologize.
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post #12522 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 10:51 AM
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I had the same frustration about this myself. I imagine there is much more information about the reviewing and measuring of these projectors on his site. There's also a language barrier. Could someone point to the link for the Cine4home forum where the talk about this is going on? I read the excellent testing they did on the JVC's. They seem to have a good system in place that has a good baseline and controlled results which are two things we really need to see in order to get valid information that would help pin down any issues.
This is the German forum where all measured projectors are affected :

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-13697.html

Except HW40/55 measured by cine4home :

http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/sony...ngzeittest.htm

Yesterday I calibrated to my friend your HW/55 with 190 hours of use, and is also affected.

Sorry, I know that my English is not good.
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post #12523 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
I don't have a problem with my 1100ES (yet, I haven't measured it but I will this weekend and report back) and I'm not asking you to solve it if I did have one Mike - you are right, it would need to go through my own dealer or directly through Sony warranty service. Though if you had happened to have one in stock at the price I got I would've gone through you - the price was too good to pass up.

But this forum is a community, and I think/feel that a little proactive empathy/communication would go a long way for the dealer reps here. I did also buy my JVC 4910 from you as well as my 1100ES upgrade kit - and as you know I inquired two days ago about another JVC from you (great price btw). The main reason I go through you is because I feel you have our back - so silence is not encouraging. I could have bought that upgrade kit from the other dealer (they have one) but I gave you the business because I wanted to.

However I will say Mike that you personally didn't/haven't said anything flippant or dismissive - so I shouldn't have mentioned your name and for that I apologize.

I want to apologize if I came off as " flippant or dismissive ". That was not my intention.
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post #12524 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 11:12 AM
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From a very reliable source, both Sony's SXRD and JVC's LYCOS panels are equally susceptible to eventual panel degradation and loss of contrast. This is likely a by product of heat and UV radiation from the lamp. The only projector and tech that is immune is dlp. After experiencing 4K resolution, I could not go back to a 1080p dlp. If possible, running in low lamp mode is recommended for panel longevity.
This has not been my experience. I have done several touchup on JVC pj's with no unexpected performance shifts. My experience is the exact opposite with Sony SXRD.
Latest (not only) example:
I just did a touchup on a Sony 50ES I had calibrated about 2 years ago. 1st time everything calibrated nicely, good grayscale, gamma, etc using normal controls. At touchup, light output only dropped a small amount, but gamma and grayscale deteriorated so much I had to use the Image Director 3 software to get it in line and contrast measured only 2000:1.

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post #12525 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
I don't have a problem with my 1100ES (yet, I haven't measured it but I will this weekend and report back) and I'm not asking you to solve it if I did have one Mike - you are right, it would need to go through my own dealer or directly through Sony warranty service. Though if you had happened to have one in stock at the price I got I would've gone through you - the price was too good to pass up.

But this forum is a community, and I think/feel that a little proactive empathy/communication would go a long way for the dealer reps here. I did also buy my JVC 4910 from you as well as my 1100ES upgrade kit - and as you know I inquired two days ago about another JVC from you (great price btw). The main reason I go through you is because I feel you have our back - so silence is not encouraging. I could have bought that upgrade kit from the other dealer (they have one) but I gave you the business because I wanted to.

However I will say Mike that you personally didn't/haven't said anything flippant or dismissive - so I shouldn't have mentioned your name and for that I apologize.
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post #12526 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
No, a regeneration is not possible.
Regards,
Ekki
Ekki:

I really wish you would be more specific in your responses, you imply that you have further information than you are sharing, it is a bit disingenuous.

Exuse me?


I clearly corrcected any false information that was spreaded here regarding this phenomenon and I clearly pointed out that it can not be regenerated and yet you call me "disingenuous", just because I dont directly satisfy all your curiosity?


Sorry guys, I am not used to such attitude and I surely will not put up with that. Good luck, I am out of this thread.


My recommendation: Learn some german and follow the 4000+ posts in the thread on hifi-forum.de linked above, where I try for over a year now together with users, dealers and Sony to solve the problems. You will find plenty of Information there.


Best regards & Goodbye,
Ekki
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post #12527 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 03:21 PM
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Exuse me?

I clearly corrcected any false information that was spreaded here regarding this phenomenon and I clearly pointed out that it can not be regenerated and yet you call me disingenuous, just because I dont directly satisfy all your curiosity?

Sorry guys, I am not used to such attitude and I surely will not put up with that. Good luck, I am out of this thread.

My recommendation: Learn some german and follow the 4000+ posts in the thread on hifi-forum.de linked above, where I try for over a year now together with other users, dealers and Sony to solve the problems. You will find plenty of Information there.

Best regards & Goodbye,
Ekki
I'm truly sorry that you were offended by some comments. I fear something was lost in translation. I hope you will continue to take part in the forum.
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post #12528 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 03:43 PM
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...I fear something was lost in translation...

Sorry, but my english is good enough to understand the meaning of "disingenuous" and the following agreement.


Also, I did not say that I will leave the AVS-Forum entirely, just this explicit thread. I do not need to justify myself for trying to help without spreading unprecise "sensational" half-true information like others, nor do I have time for silly conspiracy theories.


Regards,
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post #12529 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 04:01 PM
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I think there is a bit of tension that developed because of the lack of info on the actual cause of the degradation. I am well aware that my expert could very well be wrong on the cause, but the concern is the same...there is likely some degradation going on with some SXRD panels and dropping contrast. The question is: what is causing it and what if anything can be done about it?

The following "agreement" on my post was meant to mean you likely have more info and know the cause. I was not commenting on the disingenuous part. I have edited my post. The words "please share" at the end of my post should have been telling on the non-hostile tone of my post.

If you know the reason, and can't disclose...it is understandable, as I have discussed that earlier on this thread.

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post #12530 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 05:13 PM
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Ekki, I will be the first to apologize for anyone here on the forum if they've offended you. You seem to be one of the only competent enough sources out there that has any clue about this issue and it would be a great loss if you left. There seems to be anxiety surrounding this issue and people are extremely anxious to hear any information that they can to form their opinion of it. This is really bad news for Sony and I think it will deter many people from purchasing one of the more expensive 4K projectors until there is a confirmation from Sony that there is a fix. I'm extremely excited to see your results from the 4K projectors you re-measure. @Cine4Home
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post #12531 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 06:26 PM
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I don't think Ekki is in a position to reveal much more information and you shouldn't expect him to. Since he frequently gets early access to projectors before anyone else, he must have some very good relationships with the manufacturers. Jeopardizing those relationships is not in the best interest of his business or web site. I think that's why he's trying to remain neutral on this issue and not give away any insider specifics that could be used to assign blame to the manufacturer.

In case you guys need another data point for contrast measured of a new VW1100, I found this review:

580:1 ANSI

Default - 13 700: 1
Aperture Full Auto 500 000: 1
Aperture is limited. cars 400 000: 1
Profile color. Temperature D65 12 300: 1
Maximum Focal Length 18 700: 1
The maximum focal length and maximum aperture is closed 23 500: 1
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post #12532 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I don't think Ekki is in a position to reveal much more information and you shouldn't expect him to. Since he frequently gets early access to projectors before anyone else, he must have some very good relationships with the manufacturers. Jeopardizing those relationships is not in the best interest of his business or web site. I think that's why he's trying to remain neutral on this issue and not give away any insider specifics that could be used to assign blame to the manufacturer.

In case you guys need another data point for contrast measured of a new VW1100, I found this review:

580:1 ANSI

Default - 13 700: 1
Aperture Full Auto 500 000: 1
Aperture is limited. cars 400 000: 1
Profile color. Temperature D65 12 300: 1
Maximum Focal Length 18 700: 1
The maximum focal length and maximum aperture is closed 23 500: 1
This is VERY close to what I measured with my 1100ES with a brand new light engine installed with less than 2 hours on the light engine.
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post #12533 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 06:48 PM
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I only owned 2 Sony projectors: HW15 and VW85. I didn't keep them long enough to detect any degradation. Now I'm glad I sold them early at minimal financial loss.

If this widespread loss of contrast proves to be true, that's a real huge blow to resale value for existing owners. Seegs was lucky to sell his quickly. If Sony can't fix the problem, they should at least offer some financial compensation for the lost value of the projector or offer an upgrade path to a newer model. I'm know I'm dreaming. That would likely require a class action.

If nothing else, this development will make everyone paranoid about degradation from now on. We will all have to measure our new projectors (regardless of model/tech) to see if they are immune.
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post #12534 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 09:56 PM
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I considered to buy a used W1100 in january. But after I had seen a lot of material on it, it was obivious that the contrast and black level was very poor - lets say under 5000:1.

This experience has put me off buying a Sony projector for the foreseable future. I loved Sony projector back in the crt era. I bought a brand new Sony D50 in 1997, and switched to a brand new Sony G70 in 1999.

I asked this question about the contrast on the SXRD-projectors in this forum earlier this year, but it got dissmissed/denied by every expert - guess it is a different story this time around.

I hope Sony again can build products that can last.

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post #12535 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Sorry, but my english is good enough to understand the meaning of "disingenuous" and the following agreement.


Also, I did not say that I will leave the AVS-Forum entirely, just this explicit thread. I do not need to justify myself for trying to help without spreading unprecise "sensational" half-true information like others, nor do I have time for silly conspiracy theories.


Regards,
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On behalf of the rest of the numerous 1100ES owners who have not and would not say you've been disingenuous, please accept our apology. We value your input and are sorry to see you leave this thread. We hope you'll reconsider.
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post #12536 of 13921 Old 11-26-2015, 10:58 PM
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Yes Ekki your input is very valuable and I appreciate the fact that you've provided it. Definitely apologize if anything I said sounded like I was critical of you - I wasn't.

Danke - bitte bleibe!
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post #12537 of 13921 Old 11-27-2015, 12:01 AM
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Cine4home is a irreplaceable resource in here and some guys in here question him about this when he is only coming up with valuable information?? The people doing this should be ashamed! Cine4home is in an position to test a big number and can come up with a reliable result so you should listen very closely to what Ekki has to say.

I also got a lot of hostility when I reported about this problem and people in here questioned my intentions and also almost started calling me names. I only bring this info because I think it is important that owners should know about it and take measurements so they can show it to Sony and make them even more aware of the problem they have known about since the first SXRD chip hit the market. I also have a big list of projectors measured and all of them show signs of degradation, but I don´t have a lot of documentation as I have only measured a couple since new, but I have an idea of what they should measure because of people like Ekki and other serious testers that measure on/off in their tests, and there is not a whole lot of testers doing this. I also have a source who measures and calibrates hundreds of projectors each year and he tells me almost 100% of all Sonys he recalibrates show signs of big degradation and this is a very reliable source. Why he will not come forward and document his finds I can not answer, but I can tell it is 100% true.

I will not spend anymore time with this and let others take care of this in the future. I will contact Sony about my HW55 and see what happens. Good luck to all VW1000/1100 owners and let´s hope Sony fixes this.
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post #12538 of 13921 Old 11-27-2015, 03:44 AM
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Yes that just typical, when we finally get someone with knowledge to help us, there is always some know it all !
That haves to ruin it for everybody, with smart ass coments
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post #12539 of 13921 Old 11-27-2015, 05:11 AM
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I have seen a McIntosh rep chased off a thread, I have seen a Pioneer rep chased off a thread, and when comparing it to what happened here, I can't help but think there is a fair amount of over reacting going on here. Sony is not present so there has been a fair amount of misdirected venting. We are all pretty much on the same side here...trying to document the issue and reach a remedy...
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Last edited by G-Rex; 12-04-2015 at 10:03 PM.
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post #12540 of 13921 Old 11-27-2015, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
I have seen a McIntosh rep chased off a thread, I have seen a Pioneer rep chased off a thread, and when comparing it to what happened here, I can't help but think there is a fair amount of over reacting going on here. My post ended with "please share". Clearly my post did not have a hostile tone, which is consistent with my explanation of my post (and correction). Tensions are high, as well as frustration levels of owners. Sony is not present so there has been a fair amount of misdirected venting. We are all pretty much on the same side here...trying to document the issue and reach a remedy...
We used to have a lot of manufacturer's Reps posting on AVS and they all left for pretty much the same reason.
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