Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 436 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 967Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #13051 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 12:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 7,882
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2774 Post(s)
Liked: 1143
Cine4home mentions "about 20%" light loss when the P3 filter is in the light path.
Seegs108 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #13052 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 01:01 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,586
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORLL View Post
So, now that the UHD Premium specs are out, ....
So, I just wanted to remind you that the word "So" is one of the banned words for 2016 (LSSU list) - So, as in starting a sentence with a "So")

Quote:
Originally Posted by NORLL View Post
HDR is of course out of the question and is perhaps off less importance on a front projector anyway.
Could you please elaborate as to why HDR is less important for front projectors?

Last edited by audvid; 01-05-2016 at 01:15 PM.
audvid is offline  
post #13053 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 01:19 PM
Member
 
NORLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Could you please elaborate as to why HDR is less important for front projectors?
It is off less importance because most projectors are unable to produce the same kind of HDR image as a flat screen display with direct back lighting. The projectors are unable to produce the same peak brightness and maintain the black level/contrast. I am sure that some projectors might benefit from HDR capability, but it is perhaps not the most important thing for the projectors. I think larger color space (P3) and greater bit depth (10-bits) is more important for front projectors. I have not seen any of this for myself, so this is purely based on the opinions of others. Anyway, HDR is out of the question for VW1000/1100 anyway. Hopefully the HDR Blu-ray players can “down-sample” the HDR to non-HDR.

The other UHD specifications might be within reach? If the others specifications (the non HDR ones) are also out of reach then the 1000/1100 will be outdated quickly when the new format gains traction. Hopefully there is some middle ground were the 1000/1100 can accept the signal and do most of it to produce the best possible image. Since the 1000/1100 is a down scaled version of Sony professional products it would really disappoint me is it could not do any of the new specification. If so, that is not very far sighted from an engineering perspective.
NORLL is offline  
post #13054 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 05:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: DC Metro area USA
Posts: 2,429
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 156
I believe (am hoping) that the Sony 1100ES will handle UHD resolution, 10-bit 24p, and DCI/P3 color (at 20% light loss - better than 3D loss). I'm pretty sure that most projectors won't be able to handle HDR, at least not the way a display will, so not going to sweat that. It's the price we pay for much larger display area. As for being able to get those first benefits without HDR, my guess is that worst case, Sony will provide a UHD player that allows for that.

...Steve
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." - V
 
My HT gear
stevenjw is offline  
post #13055 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 06:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 1,925
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Looking forward to your A/B comparison of the RS600 and 1100ES.

Soon as you posted that, I started thinking of how I could set up for easy, hassle free A/B comparisons with both units. In my current HT, that's not exactly an easy task with ceiling mount and ceiling fed cabling and power. I'm going to have to jury rig an hdmi back to to my equipment room on the side. One of the projectors would then have to sit on a step ladder behind the sofa. I would probably use the switching in the 8802 for relatively efficient A/B control. Given this arrangement, I may first spend some time with the JVC so that I'm comfortable with its set up and wait till I have some real time on my hand towards the end of the month when my girlfriend is away. So first comments will be a more basic before and after viewing session not long after I get the RS600/X9000, which I'm hoping will be shipped down to me today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
I assume you have the 1100 right now? I look forward to your comments of comparision, to the JVC.
You'd be correct. I definitely would have mentioned here if I'd have moved it on, especially being one of the original 1000, then 1100 guys.
audvid and stevenjw like this.


Last edited by OzHDHT; 01-05-2016 at 06:40 PM.
OzHDHT is offline  
post #13056 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 06:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
turls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Central IL
Posts: 4,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORLL View Post
Does this apply for the VW1000ES also? I know it does not have HDCP 2.2, but that can be solved with other solutions.
In reality, it is an awful lot to ask for a non-upgraded VW1000ES to do anything at all with upcoming UHD sources. That's just the way it is.

Matt
turls is offline  
post #13057 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
turls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Central IL
Posts: 4,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Sony is asking for questions to the Sony Electronics Twitter account with hash tag #SonyCES . Think I will get an answer to my tweet asking what Sony plans to do about the SXRD issues?
chrisreeves, G-Rex, OzHDHT and 2 others like this.

Matt
turls is offline  
post #13058 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 09:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
stephenbr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
Sony is asking for questions to the Sony Electronics Twitter account with hash tag #SonyCES . Think I will get an answer to my tweet asking what Sony plans to do about the SXRD issues?

If they do you should also then take out a lotto ticket!
stephenbr is offline  
post #13059 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 09:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisreeves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
In reality, it is an awful lot to ask for a non-upgraded VW1000ES to do anything at all with upcoming UHD sources. That's just the way it is.
Well according to Seegs that is NOT the way it is. He says the only difference with the 1100ES vs the 1000ES is copy protection (HDCP 2.2 compatibility) and a modified Reality Creation upscaling engine.

So according to him the 1000ES with an HDFury attached to it should provide the exact same visual experience with UHD Blu-ray material as an 1100ES.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
chrisreeves is offline  
post #13060 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 09:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 1,925
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
Well according to Seegs that is NOT the way it is. He says the only difference with the 1100ES vs the 1000ES is copy protection (HDCP 2.2 compatibility) and a modified Reality Creation upscaling engine.

So according to him the 1000ES with an HDFury attached to it should provide the exact same visual experience with UHD Blu-ray material as an 1100ES.
Just not anything in 60Hz of course, since you are stuck with HDMI 1.4a as well.

OzHDHT is offline  
post #13061 of 13341 Old 01-05-2016, 11:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 7,882
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2774 Post(s)
Liked: 1143
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Just not anything in 60Hz of course, since you are stuck with HDMI 1.4a as well.
The bandwidth between HDMI 1.4a and the HDMI "2.0" implementation Sony is using on these units are the same at 10.2Gbps, but it seems Sony has added an 8 bit 4:2:0 mode at 60hz into the EDID on the 1100ES board. I never tried, but it wouldn't surprise me if you could force this mode on the 1000ES. But if one used the HDFury Integral with a 1000ES it would be basically the same experience as an 1100ES.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Crazy Projector Journey!!
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13062 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 01:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 1,925
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The bandwidth between HDMI 1.4a and the HDMI "2.0" implementation Sony is using on these units are the same at 10.2Gbps, but it seems Sony has added an 8 bit 4:2:0 mode at 60hz into the EDID on the 1100ES board. I never tried, but it wouldn't surprise me if you could force this mode on the 1000ES. But if one used the HDFury Integral with a 1000ES it would be basically the same experience as an 1100ES.
Yeah true. It is as we know still uses the low 10.2 bandwidth chip since Sony rushed to get the upgrade out before the 18Gbps were available. I think, but don't quote me, that I tried to use the 60Hz output when Nvidia enabled the 'driver fudge' for their GPUs and it wouldn't work with my 1000. Easy enough to test for 1000 owners with access to a capable PC. Not sure though as you suggest, you could maybe hack the EDID to do it.

OzHDHT is offline  
post #13063 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 06:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Central IL
Posts: 4,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
Well according to Seegs that is NOT the way it is. He says the only difference with the 1100ES vs the 1000ES is copy protection (HDCP 2.2 compatibility) and a modified Reality Creation upscaling engine.

So according to him the 1000ES with an HDFury attached to it should provide the exact same visual experience with UHD Blu-ray material as an 1100ES.
I didn't really phrase my feelings on this correctly--my point really is if somebody skipped an upgrade, they didn't care about upcoming content because they should have known HDCP 2.2 would be a huge hurdle. If HDFury is a workaround that's great, but I don't think many people were making their decision at the time about the upgrade and saying, I'm going to skip this upgrade because I know there will be an HDFury workaround.

I think I could make comparisons to previous workarounds for content (Cinavia?) that maybe a workaround is ok for a while but not long term also...

Matt
turls is offline  
post #13064 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 06:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 5,595
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1156 Post(s)
Liked: 932
There was also updated firmware on the new boards, not sure precisely what they address, but may be connected to proper/most comprehensive playback of UHD. But that's me guessing...

Two DaLite High Power screens for sale (local NJ pickup only):
2.8 gain 16.9 133"
2.4 gain 2.35 160"
thrang is online now  
post #13065 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 06:27 AM
Member
 
NORLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Yeah true. It is as we know still uses the low 10.2 bandwidth chip since Sony rushed to get the upgrade out before the 18Gbps were available. I think, but don't quote me, that I tried to use the 60Hz output when Nvidia enabled the 'driver fudge' for their GPUs and it wouldn't work with my 1000. Easy enough to test for 1000 owners with access to a capable PC. Not sure though as you suggest, you could maybe hack the EDID to do it.
According to HDMI.org website BT.2020 was introduced with HDMI 2.0 standard. If this is so, then it would seem that the VW1000 will not accept the color space for UHD even though it might be able to reproduce a P3 color space?

Will the 1100? If the HDMI input is just a tweaked version of the 1.4 input on the 1000 with HDCP 2.2 support this might be an issue? BT.2020 support is not mentioned anywhere in the 1100ES user manual.

According to HDMI.org HDMI v.1.4 supports:
3840 pixels wide by 2160 pixels high @ 24Hz | 25Hz | 30Hz
4096 pixels wide by 2160 pixels high @ 24Hz
There is no mention of bit depth or sub sampling on this site.

According to the chart in this post (Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015?) HDMI 1.4 has the bandwidth to handle YUV 4:2:2 10-bit @ 3840x2160 30p maximum. Even though the bandwidth is there, this does not automatically mean that the signal is supported.

I would like to test this on my VPL-VW1000ES (not upgraded). I have a PC with a Geforce 960 GPU that should be capable of outputting these signals. I am unsure of how to go about it and what to test for.
NORLL is offline  
post #13066 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 06:49 AM
Member
 
NORLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
I didn't really phrase my feelings on this correctly--my point really is if somebody skipped an upgrade, they didn't care about upcoming content because they should have known HDCP 2.2 would be a huge hurdle.
For the US this might be correct, but for the rest of the world this was not so easy. First of all there was not content available in Europe (no Netflix 4K, no Vudu 4K no Amazon 4K - nothing). The deal did not include extra bulb, no streaming player, no tablet and the price was double. It was a very bad deal to upgrade for which you got almost nothing in return, except for HDCP 2.2.

I feel somewhat disappointed if it now turns out that when the format finally arrives it is incompatible with the projector. After all, it was marketed as a 4K projector with DCI support – and that was only three years ago.
NORLL is offline  
post #13067 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 07:34 AM
Member
 
NORLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I did a quick test. Connected the PC to the projector (GTX 960 card) and disconnected my monitor. Vent into the Nvidia Control Panel. All these options were available:
3840 pixels wide by 2160 pixels high @ 24Hz | 25Hz | 30Hz
4096 pixels wide by 2160 pixels high @ 24Hz
Also, I could select 23Hz (which I guess is 23.967).

They were all accepted by the VW1000ES. However, 10-bit output was no available as an option in the Nvidia Control panel for these resolutions. I am guessing there is some EDID going on, limiting my options. What software can I use to override this to try 10-bit signal. Also, there is no way to select sub sampling in the Nvidia software.
NORLL is offline  
post #13068 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 07:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Central IL
Posts: 4,716
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORLL View Post
For the US this might be correct, but for the rest of the world this was not so easy. First of all there was not content available in Europe (no Netflix 4K, no Vudu 4K no Amazon 4K - nothing). The deal did not include extra bulb, no streaming player, no tablet and the price was double. It was a very bad deal to upgrade for which you got almost nothing in return, except for HDCP 2.2.
Its a little irrelevant how easy or not the decision might have been, the point was the writing was on the wall that future content was going to be a hurdle --otherwise what was the point of the upgrade. I wasn't happy about it either. I pissed and moaned a lot here about the timing of the upgrade since it didn't include the newer chips. If they were going to bother to do an unprecedented upgrade program at least do it right and not do it just about selling their overpriced limited content for the X1.

I really hope there is a workaround for 1000ES for the content to be as good as it is on the 1100ES, but in my mind HDMI is tricky enough without unsupported workarounds.
OzHDHT likes this.

Matt
turls is offline  
post #13069 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 12:44 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,586
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Excerpt from: Widescreen Review • Issue 203 • January 2016, Page 16
by Doug Blackburn.. He Says that the sony 665 optical lens and the resulting picture is the cleanest (clean referring to the optical quality of the images, primarily controlled by the lens and the light engine) he has seen, even as compared to his viewing of the Sony 1000, 3 years ago..

Considering that he says that his review of Sony 1000 was 3 years ago.. Is it possible that he might not have remembered the superiority of the image due to the superior Lens of the 1000? Or is it possible that the 665 has the same or a better lens?

Request to some of the experts here on this forum:
1. Could you please comment whether the Sony 665 has an all glass lens? Perhaps even a Carl Zeiss?
2. Have any of you compared the Sony 1100 and 665? I thought someone did.. The thread has gotten very long.. so, please forgive me if this is a question, which has been already answered.

Thank you

Last edited by audvid; 01-06-2016 at 04:19 PM.
audvid is offline  
post #13070 of 13341 Old 01-06-2016, 04:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 1,925
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Excerpt from: Widescreen Review • Issue 203 • January 2016, Page 16
by Doug Blackburn.. He Says that the sony 665 optical lens and the resulting picture is the cleanest (clean referring to the optical quality of the images, primarily controlled by the lens and the light engine) he has seen, even as compared to his viewing of the Sony 1000, 3 years ago..

Considering that he says that his review of Sony 1000 was 3 years ago.. Is it possible that he might not have remembered the superiority of the image due to the superior Lens of the 1000? Or is it possible that the 665 has the same or a better lens?

Request to some of the experts here on this forum:
1. Could you please comment whether the Sony 665 has an all glass lens? Perhaps even a Carl Zeiss?
2. Have any of you compared the Sony 1100 and 665? I thought someone did.. The thread has gotten very long.. so, please forgive me if this is a question, which has been already answered.

Thank you
They've kept the lens arrangement from the 600 in the 665, so it would not be superior to the 1000 in that regard.

The one guy who definitely has and has written about in on his site is Joerod. I'm sure others have as well, I just can't recall specifically offhand :

http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1449530632899
joerod likes this.


Last edited by OzHDHT; 01-06-2016 at 04:56 PM.
OzHDHT is offline  
post #13071 of 13341 Old 01-07-2016, 12:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Andreas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 583 Post(s)
Liked: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Cine4home mentions "about 20%" light loss when the P3 filter is in the light path.
I measured my VW1000 to around 30% loss with the DCI/P3 filter engaged.


Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Excerpt from: Widescreen Review • Issue 203 • January 2016, Page 16
by Doug Blackburn.. He Says that the sony 665 optical lens and the resulting picture is the cleanest (clean referring to the optical quality of the images, primarily controlled by the lens and the light engine) he has seen, even as compared to his viewing of the Sony 1000, 3 years ago..

Considering that he says that his review of Sony 1000 was 3 years ago.. Is it possible that he might not have remembered the superiority of the image due to the superior Lens of the 1000? Or is it possible that the 665 has the same or a better lens?

Request to some of the experts here on this forum:
1. Could you please comment whether the Sony 665 has an all glass lens? Perhaps even a Carl Zeiss?
2. Have any of you compared the Sony 1100 and 665? I thought someone did.. The thread has gotten very long.. so, please forgive me if this is a question, which has been already answered.

Thank you
To remember a picture seen 3 years ago and say the 665 is better than the VW1000 is simply impossible. The 665 has the same lens as the 600 and it has a plastic front element if I am not mistaken. I tested the VW500 (same as the 600) side by side with the VW1000 a couple of years ago and it was easy to see the superior lensquality of the VW1000 witch resulted in slightly sharper and more clean/clear picture in the VW1000. Also the 1000 has almost 200:1 more ANSI contrast than the VW500/600/665 and some of that comes from the superior lens.
audvid and DavidHir like this.

Regards
Andreas
My Homecinema
calibration software: Lightspace and Calman
meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501 on preorder Soon to be THX II certified.
Andreas21 is online now  
post #13072 of 13341 Old 01-07-2016, 08:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
BOBCAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Wonder if you can take the lens assy off of the 1000 and put it on the 600/665?
BOBCAT is offline  
post #13073 of 13341 Old 01-07-2016, 08:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 5,595
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1156 Post(s)
Liked: 932
BOBCAT, stevenjw, DavidHir and 3 others like this.

Two DaLite High Power screens for sale (local NJ pickup only):
2.8 gain 16.9 133"
2.4 gain 2.35 160"
thrang is online now  
post #13074 of 13341 Old 01-08-2016, 09:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
RickAVManiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 755
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 51
My dealer just accept to lend me is demo JVC RS500 for the week-end.

Can wait to see what all the buzz is about and fully compare it with my Sony VW1100
audvid likes this.
RickAVManiac is online now  
post #13075 of 13341 Old 01-08-2016, 03:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 1,925
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 154
My RS600 arrived yesterday, unfortunately not a demo, wish that was as easy to do for us down this way. I probably won't have time to hook it up and start testing until tomorrow. The A/B comparison may have to wait a while depending on how busy I am this week. Still I'm looking forward to giving the 600 a run.
OzHDHT is offline  
post #13076 of 13341 Old 01-08-2016, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
 
BakeApples's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Really looking forward to hear your opinions after comparing them, especially the how they differ in native motion and image calmness.
BakeApples is offline  
post #13077 of 13341 Old 01-10-2016, 11:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 7,882
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2774 Post(s)
Liked: 1143
As Zombie and I had hinted to a few weeks back about another issue plaguing this unit, him and I have posted a bit of information in the JVC RS500/RS600 owner's thread. The issue revolves around an inherent problem with banding and posterization that the projector injects into the image. Zombie's original post can be found here and my follow up posts can be found here and here.

I will quote those posts to make it easier to digest:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I spent 5 hours last night with the VW1100 and RS600 in a stack using Oblivion and Skyfall as the sources for comparison. With every possible configuration I tried, the Sony clearly has more visible grain in the background during low and mid APL scenes on this 1080P content. The perceived 'sharpness' is partially a result of the posterization artifacts in the scaling that we have been discussing. btw - it is less with an actual 4K source (still there though) so it must be something cooked into Sony's scaling algorithm which is not defeat-able. There is a cost to the overall PQ by using Sony's RC even at lowest setting.

If I kept the Sony, I would have been forced to move over to the HTPC / MadVR setup which produces better results.

Sony top, JVC bottom. You can see some of the posterization artifacts around the nose and face. It makes fine image details appear dirty when compared to the original frame.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The posterization issue gives a false sense of extra sharpness within the image. This is something I noticed as well and I think a lot of people who've made these comparisons didn't realize was there and thought the Sony was clearly sharper because of it. The issue I have is not that people aren't aware of this posterization issue, but more along the lines of how poorly a $28000 projector has been engineered. This can, does, and will effect color resolution within the image. This is going to be extremely bad for the Sony when we start to see 10bit color information with UHD blu-ray as the posterization adds quite a bit of banding to the image. I wonder if the 1100ES will be able to keep up with a native 4K JVC next year.

I think the image you showed me earlier shows the posterization issue quite a bit easier:



and one of my own images taken with my 1100ES when I had it here. I've contacted several other 1100ES owners and it seems to effect all units out there to a varying degree:


Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post
That "shadow" on the right (his left) cheek looks terrible! Is that the Sony doing that or just the source?
That's the whole point of mine and Zombie's posts. It's the Sony that adds the posterization. The issue can be seen even without a source being fed into the projector by simply looking at the internal test patterns within the service menu. Banding is especially bad if you pull up the greyscale ramp test patterns. It shouldn't be there. This problem was there when testing at different input resolutions, different bit depth and chroma subsampling rates sent to the projector, with and without Reality Creation engaged, with and without Smooth Gradation engaged, with and without the dynamic iris engaged and with several other things in the menu turned on and off for good measure. It's been hypothesised that this issue is inherent in how these SXRD 4K panels are being driven by the projector.

I had written this post a few weeks back. I was going to wait until Zombie and a few others who were selling their units finally got rid of them to post. So I guess there's no better time than now:

Quote:
Posterization and Banding:


Before I sold my 1100ES I was having an issue that I thought on affected my specific unit. There was prominent banding and especially posterization within the image. When I first had my unit it was a 1000ES and I had bought the upgrade kit from AVScience and scheduled to send in the unit to have upgraded to an 1100ES. I had contacted Sony ES support and told them about the issue I was seeing and they made a special note for the technicians doing the upgraded motherboard to look into the issue while it was there for the upgrade. Once the upgrade was done I was informed the posterization and banding issue was taken care of and the unit was sent back to me. Upon arrival I powered the unit up and immediately noticed it was still there. I contacted Sony and told them that it was still there and they had it sent in under the impression that it was damaged in shipment back to me. The prognosis was that there was an issue with the SXRD panels that new ones needed to be replaced. But to do this most of the optical engine, minus the lens, needs to be ordered as apparently you cannot order just SXRD panels. Sony was out of stock and I needed to wait a month for new stock to arrive. A month went by and they replaced the light engine. I received the unit back and, yup, the issue was still there. At this point, considering most of the projector was brand new between both visits I was under the impression that this was “normal” behavior for an 1100ES. So between the contrast loss and obvious issues with something in either the video processing chain or how the SXRD panels are driven I decided to cut my losses and sell the unit.

About a month later I was sent a PM asking if I too saw posterization within the image. Imagine my surprise to find out that my suspicions were true, in that all units seem to be affected by this issue. I then contacted Andreas21 and Ekki of cine4home, as they’ve seen dozens of these units combined, to see if they too have seen this issue on every single one of the units. They said “yes”

What Does The Issue Look Like?


It is most prevalent with similar color pixels neighboring each other. Due to this phenomenon it’s easy to see it in faces, shadows and solid color things like blue skies, and clouds.

Posterization in Faces:





Posterization in the Sky:







Banding in Greyscale Ramps in Service Menu Patterns:



You can clearly make out the banding in cine4home’s review images:





More banding in other reviews:





These images were taken from Zombie10k's RS600 vs VW1100ES shootout which clearly show the posterization there in the image on the 1100ES and no there in the RS600's image:
Sony top, JVC bottom. You can see some of the posterization artifacts around the nose and face. It makes fine image details appear dirty when compared to the original frame.











So Why Is This A Problem?


The first thing I’ll say is that there is a ton of fine image detail that essentially gets erased by the posterization that occurs. This is because there are now “patches” of what looks like low bit depth image information on screen. They look like blobs of the same color pixels.

The member who originally contacted me asking if I had seen the issue was doing an A/B shootout between an RS600 and the 1100ES and it immediately stuck out because the issue wasn’t there on the RS600. He also made a very good point about what this issue seems to do to the image, in that, it can make it appear to be sharper due to the posterization zones created stark differences in contrast. It creates hard edges of contrast difference on screen and this can make our brains think the image is sharper. This is in essence what a Darbee Darblet does, but without creating posterization. The Darblet just intensifies contrast between neighboring light and dark pixels. While doing his A/B he thought that this may be why some people may think the 1100ES is sharper than a JVC for example with 1080p content even though the 1100ES is actually showing less fine image detail than the JVC is. A question I have is not one I’m sure anyone can answer but how does this affect color resolution on screen? Sony claims the panels are 12 bit and while this may be true, it seems what actually gets displayed on screen can sometimes appear less than 8 bit due to the posterization. I also tested sending the 1100ES 12 bit 4:4:4 information so that the projector didn’t need to dither and the issue was still there. What's going to happen when we get 10bit color on UHD bluray? How will the 1100ES cope with this new bit depth information and will it be able to display it properly?

So What Isn’t Causing This Issue?


I wanted to be 100% sure this wasn’t source related or related to some type of setting enabled (or disabled) within the projector. I ran the gamut by disabling almost every feature the projector has to verify it wasn’t one of the many video processing suites the projector is capable of running. The issue is there regardless of input resolution (720p, 1080p, UHD, and 4K), frame rate (24, 25, 30, and 60 were tested) , bit depth (8, 10, and 12 were tested), chroma subsampling (4:2:0, 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 were tested), sending the projector either RGB or YCbCr, with or without Reality Creation enabled, with or without Smooth Gradation enabled, with or without 3D enabled, with or without pixel convergence correction enabled, with or without color correction enabled, with or without Motion Flow enabled, with or without the manual or dynamic iris enabled, with or without the DCI P3 filter in place, with either HDMI port, before and after the 1000ES to 1100ES motherboard swap and the banding issue is even there when looking at the internal test patterns inside the service menu so that is something can be verified as a “projector” issue and not a source related issue. I tried my HTPC, FiOS cable set top box, and three different blu-ray players and the issue was there on them all.

It's been hypothesized by me and a few others that this issue is due to how Sony is physically driving the SXRD panels. There seems to be some sort of limitation in color information getting to the panels. It's either that or there is a major flaw in how this projector handles color processing. It doesn't seem to dither properly. What we get within the image seems almost less than 8bit in color. It's also been noted that this posterization can be mistaken for added sharpness within the image. This is because stark transitions in the gradations of color and contrast occur due to the poserization and banding. These hard lines can give the appearance of extra sharpness within the image even though these stark contrast lines do not occur within the source.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Crazy Projector Journey!!

Last edited by Seegs108; 01-10-2016 at 12:21 PM.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13078 of 13341 Old 01-10-2016, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Andreas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 583 Post(s)
Liked: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
As Zombie and I had hinted to a few weeks back about another issue plaguing this unit, him and I have posted a bit of information in the JVC RS500/RS600 owner's thread. The issue revolves around an inherent problem with banding and posterization that the projector injects into the image. Zombie's original post can be found here and my follow up posts can be found here and here.

I will quote those posts to make it easier to digest:









That's the whole point of mine and Zombie's posts. It's the Sony that adds the posterization. The issue can be seen even without a source being fed into the projector by simply looking at the internal test patterns within the service menu. Banding is especially bad if you pull up the greyscale ramp test patterns. It shouldn't be there. This problem was there when testing at different input resolutions, different bit depth and chroma subsampling rates sent to the projector, with and without Reality Creation engaged, with and without Smooth Gradation engaged, with and without the dynamic iris engaged and with several other things in the menu turned on and off for good measure. It's been hypothesised that this issue is inherent in how these SXRD 4K panels are being driven by the projector.

I had written this post a few weeks back. I was going to wait until Zombie and a few others who were selling their units finally got rid of them to post. So I guess there's no better time than now:
I reported about this problem to Sony in 2012 so they are aware of it. At first I thought it was a problem with my unit, but I had access to 2 others and they had exactly the same problem. I also got a new unit after about 100 hours and my new one was just the same. Smooth Gradiation might help, but Smooth Graduation is not working very well either as it smoothens out all details in dark scenes and is totally worthless.

Regards
Andreas
My Homecinema
calibration software: Lightspace and Calman
meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501 on preorder Soon to be THX II certified.
Andreas21 is online now  
post #13079 of 13341 Old 01-10-2016, 12:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 7,882
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2774 Post(s)
Liked: 1143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I reported about this problem to Sony in 2012 so they are aware of it. At first I thought it was a problem with my unit, but I had access to 2 others and they had exactly the same problem. I also got a new unit after about 100 hours and my new one was just the same. Smooth Gradiation might help, but Smooth Graduation is not working very well either as it smoothens out all details in dark scenes and is totally worthless.
The first thing I tried was smooth gradation. It helped a little bit with some of the banding I was seeing, but it never did anything to help the posterization and it's the posterization that is the easiest to see and is something that always seems to be in the image.

As I hinted to in my previous post the issue either stems from how the SXRD panels are driven or there seems to be some inherent flaw in the video processing. I've asked a few 600ES owners if they see this issue, but I haven't heard back yet. The image looks extraordinarily "8-bit" or less. It's like the image isn't properly dithered before sent to the panels for projection. I'm really surprised this hasn't been brought up before. I'm kind of surprised not a single owner in this thread has looked close enough at the image coming from their unit and commented. Zombie and I were talking about this and it's something we noticed basically day one after we received our units. It was only until I received my projector back from the Sony repair facility with new SXRD panels, drivers, optical block, motherboard and with an assurance from them that this was "normal behavior" that I was convinced it was an issue (and what Sony deems a "normal" one to boot) with all units. That is when I decided it was time to put my unit up for sale, right around the same time I realized the unit would eventually loose a significant amount of contrast too. Soon after Zombie PM'ed me asking me if I had seen the issue....my suspicions turned out to be true. I've talked to several members via PM and confirm more than a dozen units have the issue as well, which constitutes every unit they had either seen or calibrated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Crazy Projector Journey!!
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13080 of 13341 Old 01-10-2016, 12:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 7,882
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2774 Post(s)
Liked: 1143
I uploaded the images Zombie10k did with his 1100ES vs RS600 comparison to screenshot comparison to make the posterization issue a little bit easier to see. Zombie talks a bit about why he thinks a lot of people are seeing the 1100ES as "sharper" with 1080p bluray content and this is one of the main reasons:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/157632

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/157633

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Crazy Projector Journey!!
Seegs108 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Sony Vpl Vw1000es Projector , Casio Rs 232 Adapter Catalog Category Projectors Accessories
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off