Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 442 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 1209Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #13231 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 01:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: DC Metro area USA
Posts: 2,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The artifacts are not in the source, it's part of the reality creation processing for 1080P Content. We talked about this nearly 2 years ago when discussing Sony processing vs. Lumagen vs. HTPC. Same exact source, it looks better (less processed) when using the HTPC to send a native UHD signal and let the PC do the scaling. The point is, the BD source can look better (closer to the source) when using alternate methods vs. the built in Sony scaling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The 2041 lumagen did a better job with the processing but also thought it was a little too soft. The best 1080P scaling i've seen on the VW1100 was using the HTPC @ UHD res + MadVR which looks excellent.
So the posterization issue is not in the source, but seems to be lessened by improved external processing, particularly from an HTPC. That's what I'm using which may explain why I don't notice this at all from a 9' seating distance. You've also indicated that this is part of Sony's RC process for 1080p. I'm going to assume that when RC is set to min, that it's lessened and use of Cinema1 also helps from what I've read. Have I got that right so far?

Has anyone tried to look for this issue when using a 4K source from an HTPC or Sony FMP media player? I'm wondering if UHD BDs will further make this a non-issue. I'm looking forward to hearing A/B comparisons between the 1100ES and JVCs in a few months using UHD source. I know that real 4K source material from my HTPC look spectacular on the Sony (and that's without P3, UDR, and 10-bit). Hopefully, UHD BD from 4K DI source will look equally as stunning.

For the record, I used to be anal and get right up to the screen to examine stuff, but now that I'm older and resolutions are higher, I realize my eyes typically don't see anything when watching a movie that you have to go looking for up close at the screen. I only get up close to look for dead pixels and set the convergence when receiving a new projector, after that I just try to sit back and enjoy the show.
Craig Peer, thrang and RapalloAV like this.

...Steve
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." - V
 
My HT gear

Last edited by stevenjw; 01-12-2016 at 01:06 PM.
stevenjw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #13232 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 01:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cdnscg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Not at all.
It is about trade offs.
The question is would you take one discrepancy(colour banding/artifacts/posterization---which can be traced to the source....the 1000/1100 merely accentuates this) ...if it means having the advantage(and a clear one at that) in another area.....Sharpness(among other things).

It is something I wrestled with myself when comparing the panny 2000 to the 1000es.

Seegs(and Zombie) are showing photos that demonstrate these discrepancies as if it is some major revelation.......you can trace my own posts regarding the above...long before Zombie or seegs even owned the 1000es:

Sony VPL-vw1000

It is one under appreciated rule of image science.....just because an image is less sharp.....does not mean it is inferior.
I only really understood this once I had the Panny side by side with the 1000es.

The fact is that the Tom Cruise close up shows that the 1100 has a sharper picture than the 600(witness the wrinkle I have circled...it is more pronounced on the 1100 than the 600):
But sometimes less can be more....the skin tone on the 600 is more pleasing(at least to my eyes).
Reference Mode on my 1000es is slightly de-saturated.....Cinema1 has more punch(but less sharpness)...not dissimilar to the 600 depiction of Cruise.
Maybe Zombie should have used Cinema1 on the 1100 when comparing to the RS600.
Interesting, because it was that exact difference in colour which first concerned me when I switch from a JVC RS55 to a Sony 300ES. I thought there was something wrong with my pj given the lean toward green of the 'Oblivion' picture. The calibrator assured me the Sony image was more faithful to the original cinematic picture.
cdnscg is offline  
post #13233 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 01:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3095 Post(s)
Liked: 1297
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Not at all.
It is about trade offs.
The question is would you take one discrepancy(colour banding/artifacts/posterization---which can be traced to the source....the 1000/1100 merely accentuates this) ...if it means having the advantage(and a clear one at that) in another area.....Sharpness(among other things).

It is something I wrestled with myself when comparing the panny 2000 to the 1000es.

Seegs(and Zombie) are showing photos that demonstrate these discrepancies as if it is some major revelation.......you can trace my own posts regarding the above...long before Zombie or seegs even owned the 1000es:

Sony VPL-vw1000

It is one under appreciated rule of image science.....just because an image is less sharp.....does not mean it is inferior.
I only really understood this once I had the Panny side by side with the 1000es.

The fact is that the Tom Cruise close up shows that the 1100 has a sharper picture than the 600(witness the wrinkle I have circled...it is more pronounced on the 1100 than the 600):
But sometimes less can be more....the skin tone on the 600 is more pleasing(at least to my eyes).
Reference Mode on my 1000es is slightly de-saturated.....Cinema1 has more punch(but less sharpness)...not dissimilar to the 600 depiction of Cruise.
Maybe Zombie should have used Cinema1 on the 1100 when comparing to the RS600.
It's only more pronounced in Reference mode, but this also has a far more pronounced posterization effect and a more processed look to the image. In this case I think less is more because you don't get an over processed look in Cinema 1 mode (or on the JVC). This comparison Zombie did between Reference and Cinema 1 mode shows this pretty well:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp....php?id=157660

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp....php?id=157659

You'll see fine details are no where near as processed looking and don't stick out quite as much in Cinema 1 mode. Reference mode only looks sharper than the RS600 because of the extra digital enhanced sharpness Reference mode gives the image. It's not native optical sharpness. There's a huge difference here and people should know this. This is the reason why Zombie thinks people are seeing the Sony as sharper with 1080p material. Reference simply enhances the image a lot more to an almost overprocessed level by comparison to Cinema 1 and the artifacts seem to be the evidence.

Last edited by Seegs108; 01-12-2016 at 01:59 PM.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13234 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 02:26 PM
Senior Member
 
TheSony4KRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It's only more pronounced in Reference mode, but this also has a far more pronounced posterization effect and a more processed look to the image. In this case I think less is more because you don't get an over processed look in Cinema 1 mode (or on the JVC). This comparison Zombie did between Reference and Cinema 1 mode shows this pretty well:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp....php?id=157660

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp....php?id=157659

You'll see fine details are no where near as processed looking and don't stick out quite as much in Cinema 1 mode. Reference mode only looks sharper than the RS600 because of the extra digital enhanced sharpness Reference mode gives the image. It's not native optical sharpness. There's a huge difference here and people should know this. This is the reason why Zombie thinks people are seeing the Sony as sharper with 1080p material. Reference simply enhances the image a lot more to an almost overprocessed level by comparison to Cinema 1 and the artifacts seem to be the evidence.
So I went back in and pushed my Phone as close as I could before it too loses focus.....got a bit more detail(Cruise on left in Reference Mode....Cruise On Right in Cinema1......my phone barely makes the distinction...but it is visible)

Also reminded me of the scenes from Hannah which I made a point of all those years ago.

One is with the dead stag ........it has heavy artifacts(which attain a pink type color) in the top right hand corner.

the other is when Hannah discovers the North African village...there is banding/pixel blocks in the top left hand corner.

I will have to pull my Panny out..set it up and show the same
scenes...hopefully tomorrow.

On edit:

Ignore the horizontal flicker type bands...that is the crappness of my phone.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00155.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	145.0 KB
ID:	1180954   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00156.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	174.7 KB
ID:	1180962   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00148.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	195.9 KB
ID:	1180970   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00150.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	236.1 KB
ID:	1180978   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00151.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	155.7 KB
ID:	1180986  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00152.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	200.1 KB
ID:	1180994  

Last edited by TheSony4KRises; 01-12-2016 at 02:37 PM.
TheSony4KRises is offline  
post #13235 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 02:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Andreas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,806
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 648 Post(s)
Liked: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
So I went back in and pushed my Phone as close as I could before it too loses focus.....got a bit more detail:

Also reminded me of the scenes from Hannah which I made a point of all those years ago.

One is with the dead stag ........it has heavy artifacts(which attain a pink type color) in the top right hand corner.

the other is when Hannah discovers the North African village...there is banding/pixel blocks in the top left hand corner.

I will have to pull my Panny out..set it up and show the same
scenes...hopefully tomorrow.

On edit:

Ignore the horizontal flicker type bands...that is the crapness of my phone.
Can you take the pictures with a good camera so we can actually see some details?

Regards
Andreas
My Homecinema
Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501 on preorder. THX II certified.
Andreas21 is offline  
post #13236 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 02:42 PM
Senior Member
 
TheSony4KRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Interesting, because it was that exact difference in colour which first concerned me when I switch from a JVC RS55 to a Sony 300ES. I thought there was something wrong with my pj given the lean toward green of the 'Oblivion' picture. The calibrator assured me the Sony image was more faithful to the original cinematic picture.
I remember seeing Oblivion in the cinema and it had a pretty dull palette......but then again most Cinema presentations these days have that
audvid likes this.
TheSony4KRises is offline  
post #13237 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 02:52 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
joerod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: MIDWEST (just outside Chicago)
Posts: 23,143
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 308
Hey YOU give it a rest!
BOBCAT likes this.

Give me 4K or give me death!
joerod is offline  
post #13238 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 02:55 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,614
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I remember seeing Oblivion in the cinema and it had a pretty dull palette......but then again most Cinema presentations these days have that
I also noticed the same, when I watched Skyfall in an "ultra screen" (large) theatre. I was unpleasantly surprised. I thought that the new 4k dlp theatres would have a picture, superior to mine at home. On the contrary, it was an awful picture compared to mine at home and I don't even have 4k! The theatre's picture lacked brightness, color gamut and also lacked sharpness!

Last edited by audvid; 01-12-2016 at 02:58 PM.
audvid is offline  
post #13239 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 03:06 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,856
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3809 Post(s)
Liked: 2295
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I've never measured it since I don't have any source that requires it yet. I was simply going by what I read in the following post.



And if you can't trust Seegs, who can you trust?
I think Seegs was talking about the JVC and it got linked to the VW1100 by others. The light loss was talked about in this thread quite a while back.

AV Science Sales, 585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com
Sony, JVC, Epson, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Triad, Atlantic Tech, M&K, RBH, SVS, Polk, Stewart, Seymour, Falcon, DNP, SI, Screen Excellence, Carada, MicroLite & more.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #13240 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 03:32 PM
Home Theater Lover!
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 8,752
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1973 Post(s)
Liked: 1784
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
I also noticed the same, when I watched Skyfall in an "ultra screen" (large) theatre. I was unpleasantly surprised. I thought that the new 4k dlp theatres would have a picture, superior to mine at home. On the contrary, it was an awful picture compared to mine at home and I don't even have 4k! The theatre's picture lacked brightness, color gamut and also lacked sharpness!

Thanks for reminding me why I only visit a commercial theater every 7 years. I wonder what will be playing in 2022........................

AV Science, Inc. Direct (585) 671-2972 craig@avscience.com www.avscience.com Like us on Facebook

Home theater equipment sales and advice. Call to see the JVC RS600 in Northern California

My theater pics - http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...hp?cat=2386514
Craig Peer is offline  
post #13241 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 03:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3095 Post(s)
Liked: 1297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I think Seegs was talking about the JVC and it got linked to the VW1100 by others. The light loss was talked about in this thread quite a while back.
No, that 20% was about the 1000ES taken from cine4home's review. Not sure why it says my name about being trusted when it CLEARLY says in my post that number was taken from cine4home's review. But then again, many in this thread clearly miss obvious things, so I'm not surprised.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13242 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 04:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 2,193
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Guys, the short lived RS600 experiment is over. I got to watch The Martian on my freshly installed 11.5" SI screen last night with 1100 handling the screen effortlessly. I was more than happy with the image I was viewing coming via HTPC output at 4K. For me the bump in black level performance of the RS600 wasn't enough to justify then needing an A-lens to fill my screen. I'd really rather work on persuading Sony into sending a 5000 my way the way I did with the Qualia all those years ago. I'd rather experience a really big jump in performance, while keeping actual 4K, not quasi e-shift.
OzHDHT is online now  
post #13243 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 04:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,621
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1779 Post(s)
Liked: 1598
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
So the posterization issue is not in the source, but seems to be lessened by improved external processing, particularly from an HTPC. That's what I'm using which may explain why I don't notice this at all from a 9' seating distance. You've also indicated that this is part of Sony's RC process for 1080p. I'm going to assume that when RC is set to min, that it's lessened and use of Cinema1 also helps from what I've read. Have I got that right so far?

Has anyone tried to look for this issue when using a 4K source from an HTPC or Sony FMP media player? I'm wondering if UHD BDs will further make this a non-issue. I'm looking forward to hearing A/B comparisons between the 1100ES and JVCs in a few months using UHD source. I know that real 4K source material from my HTPC look spectacular on the Sony (and that's without P3, UDR, and 10-bit). Hopefully, UHD BD from 4K DI source will look equally as stunning.

steve- hi, that's correct. I was using a BD player with source direct output in this example using the least aggressive mode (cinema film 1) vs. the HTPC.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/157661

The HTPC @ UHD res with the PC doing the scaling looks closer to the source. This is an old conversation from about 2 years ago when we discussed (much more cordially than recent events) the Sony 1080P scaling vs. Lumagen vs. HTPC / MadVR.

I did watch a number of 4K clips on the Sony player and the HTPC @ UHD res and it looks good so it seems reserved to the built in scaling of 1080P content.


it's certainly not a deal breaker if the image is a little overcooked with processing BD content. There's several ways around it. I think the real concern is the contrast discussion. I had 2 members recently contact me with contrast #'s that would be alarming for a projector at this price point. One was a VW1000, the other a VW1100. I'm curious to see how this pans out over time.

thanks for staying friendly. hopefully everyone can take a break from the thread for a while. We do have a dedicated thread for comparing different models, folks are more than welcome to join in.
stevenjw, G-Rex and adidino like this.
zombie10k is online now  
post #13244 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
adidino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,452
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Guys, the short lived RS600 experiment is over. I got to watch The Martian on my freshly installed 11.5" SI screen last night with 1100 handling the screen effortlessly. I was more than happy with the image I was viewing coming via HTPC output at 4K. For me the bump in black level performance of the RS600 wasn't enough to justify then needing an A-lens to fill my screen. I'd really rather work on persuading Sony into sending a 5000 my way the way I did with the Qualia all those years ago. I'd rather experience a really big jump in performance, while keeping actual 4K, not quasi e-shift.
I agree with you fully. Not to mention we are only weeks away from getting our hands on UHD Bluray titles. Why would I walk away from a true 4k projector now? For me, I plan to keep the 1100 for a while.

The hell with Tom Cruise and his posterized follicles.
stevenjw, G-Rex, joerod and 3 others like this.
adidino is offline  
post #13245 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 04:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisreeves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It has nothing to the with the source as Zombie and I have pointed out. The Sony is adding these "artifacts". I've posted the original frame from the blu-ray:

What was the display source/path for capturing the reference frame?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
chrisreeves is offline  
post #13246 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 04:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3095 Post(s)
Liked: 1297
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
What was the display source/path for capturing the reference frame?
I used AvsPmod with the ffms2 avisynth plugin to capture the frame. The source is the US blu-ray disc MT2S file. The frame is captured in PNG lossless format. If I remember correctly this is an I-frame, but if you'd like me to, I can double check.

Last edited by Seegs108; 01-12-2016 at 04:58 PM.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13247 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 04:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,621
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1779 Post(s)
Liked: 1598
Why walk away with UHD right around the corner? this below. it's quite real and have spoken to a number of members with measurable contrast loss. UHD content is going to look great in low APL scenes with 3-4K:1 native.

Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels
zombie10k is online now  
post #13248 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 05:06 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,403
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Why walk away with UHD right around the corner? this below. it's quite real and have spoken to a number of members with measurable contrast loss. UHD content is going to look great in low APL scenes with 3-4K:1 native.

Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels
I'm not saying anybody should walk away, but the big questions for me are around HDR. UHD HDR is on its way and not just UHD.

It is possible that none of us with front projectors will care about HDR or it is possible that we will see benefits even with our lower white levels. Jury is still out on that one IMO. Will definitely be interesting to see how that one turns out and how it affects how important some image parameters are for HDR vs SDR.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #13249 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 05:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: DC Metro area USA
Posts: 2,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
No, that 20% was about the 1000ES taken from cine4home's review. Not sure why it says my name about being trusted when it CLEARLY says in my post that number was taken from cine4home's review. But then again, many in this thread clearly miss obvious things, so I'm not surprised.
Dude, chill. I was clearly having some fun at your expense given folks don't appear to be trusting you. I did include a very large smiley face to show that it was meant as a joke. I know it was a quote from Cine4Home. For the record, I actually do trust what you're saying, that there is some posterization, but as I questioned and received an answer from Zombie, who I also trust a lot, this isn't that big of a deal for me since I use an HTPC and don't go up and inspect the image way up close. Given my old eyes, seating distance, HTPC, and coming UHD, I'm not concerned with it or looking to jump ship. I'll stick with my plan and wait for a big improvement in projected displays vs. what may be a side-step at this time.

Even the native contrast loss isn't a reason for me. I've measured some loss, but the DI really helps and it's not that big of a deal at this time. I did buy a B-stock 1000, so my native contrast may never have been 18000:1. If it gets worse, then I really have a problem and will bitch up a storm. However, if it stays at current levels, I'll gladly stick to my plan and likely wait until JVC or Sony ups it's game in another year or two. I'm really hoping for a quantum leap at this point after seeing and owning an OLED display. Perhaps the 4K DLP will be a pleasant surprise. In the meantime, the 1100ES is good enough and not worth upgrading IMHO and that's really all that matters to me -- my opinion.

...Steve
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." - V
 
My HT gear
stevenjw is offline  
post #13250 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 07:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
JeffR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 423 Post(s)
Liked: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
What was the display source/path for capturing the reference frame?
Just had an obvious thought or maybe I'm just a little slow in realizing this.
I'm going to simply look at this screen shot on my 300ES and see if there is any posterization.
Has any body done this on there 1000/1100 ES ?
I did read through the thread where the posterization problem began and I didn't come across any one looking at this screen shot.
I've been looking at it on this tiny 1080p 18 inch laptop screen and it looks pristine. I'll see how it looks with the projector.

And Seegs, I did look at the shot, you didn't have to post it again to remind me, but that's fine you did.
JeffR1 is offline  
post #13251 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 07:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
adidino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,452
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Why walk away with UHD right around the corner? this below. it's quite real and have spoken to a number of members with measurable contrast loss. UHD content is going to look great in low APL scenes with 3-4K:1 native.

Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels
Wow.. and started by someone who no longer owns the projector or even owned it at the time the thread was created. Not to mention, we recently started to notice after 3 years of ownership? Perhaps it's real but the timing isn't very convenient for those hoping to sell their projector.
BOBCAT, G-Rex and thrang like this.
adidino is offline  
post #13252 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 07:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisreeves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I used AvsPmod with the ffms2 avisynth plugin to capture the frame. The source is the US blu-ray disc MT2S file. The frame is captured in PNG lossless format. If I remember correctly this is an I-frame, but if you'd like me to, I can double check.
No just curious. Also - how many other films have you done this with? The only example in the thread that I see is the Tom Cruise pic.

Also - do you have any examples of the posterization issue with 4K source material to compare to the 1080P upscaled material - and look at how much less posterization there is, if any?

I know you've said it's still there I'm just wondering if there's a series of actual comparison images to study - such as a 4K feed from a Roku 4 or Sony puck fed into a sony 4K projector compared to the same source material displayed on a 4K computer monitor/television/JVC 4K-compatible projector.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
chrisreeves is offline  
post #13253 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 07:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3095 Post(s)
Liked: 1297
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
No just curious. Also - how many other films have you done this with? The only example in the thread that I see is the Tom Cruise pic.

Also - do you have any examples of the posterization issue with 4K source material to compare to the 1080P upscaled material - and look at how much less posterization there is, if any?

I know you've said it's still there I'm just wondering if there's a series of actual comparison images to study - such as a 4K feed from a Roku 4 or Sony puck fed into a sony 4K projector compared to the same source material displayed on a 4K computer monitor/television/JVC 4K-compatible projector.
I don't have my 1100ES anymore so I cannot provide any more photos. It seems Zombie is the only member with an actual camera in this thread so you can ask him if he has any 4K content that he can provide pictures of. I do have some nice high quality, high bitrate, stuff I can send him if he'd like it. The best 4K content I have is Fury in 4K. Very high bitrate encode (the file is 116GB in size) and yes the posterization was there too. While not native 4K content, Zombie has already provided photos of what the issue looks like with a 4K input (no Sony scaling) with ultra high quality MadVR scaled bluray and while the issue is less it's unfortunately still there. This should be no different than native 4K content as the projector is going to process this no differently than a UHD BD. All the projector knows is that the input is 4K, it doesn't know whether or not it's native 4K content. Going off of Sony's response to Andreas's email, it seems it's the panel drivers adding the posterization and banding so it isn't something that can be calibrated out. Per Zombie's photos it seems using an external scaling solution and Cinema 1 mode will show the least amount of issues.

To answer some of your other question, what exactly do you mean with how many other films have I done this with? Do you mean photographed or noticed that there was an issue with posterization and banding? From my normal seating distance, which is a little less than 1.5 screen widths, I could on occasion see posterization. Normally in faces is where I saw it most frequently and this makes sense to me as humans are keen on knowing what proper skin looks like. Banding was the thing that stuck out more when it occurred but extremely bad banding didn't occur that frequently and depended on the content I was watching..

Last edited by Seegs108; 01-12-2016 at 07:53 PM.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13254 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 07:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cdnscg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I remember seeing Oblivion in the cinema and it had a pretty dull palette......but then again most Cinema presentations these days have that
Ok, without getting into the overly debated JVC vs Sony discussion, would you say the Sony or the JVC image posted of Mr.Cruise Oblivion is more faithful to the source material?
cdnscg is offline  
post #13255 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 08:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 8,359
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3095 Post(s)
Liked: 1297
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Ok, without getting into the overly debated JVC vs Sony discussion, would you say the Sony or the JVC image posted of Mr.Cruise Oblivion is more faithful to the source material?
The original 1080p frame is posted 10 posts above yours. It's pretty easy to look at it and then the two screenshots posted by Zombie10k. What would you say?
Seegs108 is offline  
post #13256 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 08:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
BOBCAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 808
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 33
joerod and adidino like this.
BOBCAT is offline  
post #13257 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cdnscg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The original 1080p frame is posted 10 posts above yours. It's pretty easy to look at it and then the two screenshots posted by Zombie10k. What would you say?
Thanks Seegs, but my question was not directed at myself.
cdnscg is offline  
post #13258 of 13869 Old 01-12-2016, 11:57 PM
Senior Member
 
TheSony4KRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Ok, without getting into the overly debated JVC vs Sony discussion, would you say the Sony or the JVC image posted of Mr.Cruise Oblivion is more faithful to the source material?
It would be unfair to make a definitive judgement without a proper side by side......I did purchase the blu ray back in 2013 a few months after seeing it in the cinema(2K Christie projection).


The Sony blu ray is sharper than what I remember in the cinema ....and we sat pretty close to the front.
In terms of the color palette....I would say the Sony reminds me more of what I saw....but it could just be that the theatre I saw it in had their projector set up to display a rather muted look.
TheSony4KRises is offline  
post #13259 of 13869 Old 01-13-2016, 12:02 AM
Senior Member
 
TheSony4KRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Dude, chill. I was clearly having some fun at your expense given folks don't appear to be trusting you. I did include a very large smiley face to show that it was meant as a joke. I know it was a quote from Cine4Home. For the record, I actually do trust what you're saying, that there is some posterization, but as I questioned and received an answer from Zombie, who I also trust a lot, this isn't that big of a deal for me since I use an HTPC and don't go up and inspect the image way up close. Given my old eyes, seating distance, HTPC, and coming UHD, I'm not concerned with it or looking to jump ship. I'll stick with my plan and wait for a big improvement in projected displays vs. what may be a side-step at this time.

Even the native contrast loss isn't a reason for me. I've measured some loss, but the DI really helps and it's not that big of a deal at this time. I did buy a B-stock 1000, so my native contrast may never have been 18000:1. If it gets worse, then I really have a problem and will bitch up a storm. However, if it stays at current levels, I'll gladly stick to my plan and likely wait until JVC or Sony ups it's game in another year or two. I'm really hoping for a quantum leap at this point after seeing and owning an OLED display. Perhaps the 4K DLP will be a pleasant surprise. In the meantime, the 1100ES is good enough and not worth upgrading IMHO and that's really all that matters to me -- my opinion.

If you have the Oblivion Bluray to hand.....any chance you cap a screen shot(the one we are all becoming too familiar with) of what it looks like on your OLED.
TheSony4KRises is offline  
post #13260 of 13869 Old 01-13-2016, 12:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: DC Metro area USA
Posts: 2,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
If you have the Oblivion Bluray to hand.....any chance you cap a screen shot(the one we are all becoming too familiar with) of what it looks like on your OLED.
Perhaps, if I get a chance, I plan to at least look at it on the LG just to compare the two images (from memory). I've got an Olympus TG-04 that I bought for underwater capture. Hopefully, it will take a decent shot.

But frankly, I'm finding this entire topic pointless, or at least overblown. I just pulled up Oblivion on my HTPC and went to the footage around 1:04 and for the life of me, I can't see anything wrong with the PQ. Nothing like the snake example a few pages ago. IMHO, it actually looks fantastic. One of the better BDs out there and I just don't see what all the fuss is. TC's face is very detailed and so is the rest of the scene. Perhaps it's because I'm using MC21 with MadVR, but in Reference mode with RC Rec =4 and NR = min. Perhaps it's my old eyes at 61. What some are calling posterization on his face, I'm calling a tan and dirt. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. Some folks are never satisfied, some are. Some take the time to smell the roses, some only see thorns. You get the idea.
G-Rex, joerod, thrang and 4 others like this.

...Steve
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." - V
 
My HT gear

Last edited by stevenjw; 01-13-2016 at 12:54 AM.
stevenjw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Casio Rs 232 Adapter Catalog Category Projectors Accessories , Sony Vpl Vw1000es Projector
Gear in this thread

taboola here
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off