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Old 02-19-2016, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The 665ES can accept the 2160p60 4:4:4 menu with its 10.2Gbps HDMI inputs without issue?
Menu pops right up. Never had an issue. There are other owners who would say the same thing.

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Old 02-19-2016, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The 665ES can accept the 2160p60 4:4:4 menu with its 10.2Gbps HDMI inputs without issue?
Question or statement
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:47 PM
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Question or statement
I was asking him. From what he's saying means that the Samsung player for some reason sends a different signal type for the menu system on the player compared to the JVC. It must be some type of EDID difference between the projectors. The JVC must say that it can accept 2160p60 4:4:4 even though it can't and the Sony says something else. I say this because the 10.2Gbps limitation on the 665ES means there's no way it could accept and display that same signal that the JVC is being sent by the Samsung.
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Old 02-20-2016, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yes. The Samsung is outputting 4K 60P 4:4:4. Too much bandwidth required and the JVC does full 18Gbps.
I'm thinking that I won't have an issue with either the Sony or the LG OLED display. However, I do hope that Samsung comes out with a firmware update that provides for manual settings vs. relying on EDID. Seems like that should be something they can provide via firmware update.

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Old 02-20-2016, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I was asking him. From what he's saying means that the Samsung player for some reason sends a different signal type for the menu system on the player compared to the JVC. It must be some type of EDID difference between the projectors. The JVC must say that it can accept 2160p60 4:4:4 even though it can't and the Sony says something else. I say this because the 10.2Gbps limitation on the 665ES means there's no way it could accept and display that same signal that the JVC is being sent by the Samsung.
Due to the HDMI limitation on the Sony, I suspect that the Samsung player is sending Rec709 8 bit 4:2:0.

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Old 02-20-2016, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
HDR for UHD BD is graded for 1000 nits of brightness. That's the equivalent of almost 300 ftL. Most people with projectors are happy to get around 20-25ftL with the current status quo of typical screen size and lumen output from these gen 1 HDR capable projectors. Most people aren't getting even 10% of the way there.
If 1000 nits is equal to 1000lm meter2 with the eventual HDR spec of 5000nits; that should mean that the VW5000 is capable of producing the entire HDR range at the output point of the projector (lens) and that all the dynamic range proportionate to the screen size and throw distance would be present? I'm not an engineer...just asking!

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Old 02-20-2016, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by netroamer View Post
If 1000 nits is equal to 1000lm meter2 with the eventual HDR spec of 5000nits; that should mean that the VW5000 is capable of producing the entire HDR range at the output point of the projector (lens) and that all the dynamic range proportionate to the screen size and throw distance would be present? I'm not an engineer...just asking!
We tend to use imperial measurements on the forum. One nit is equal to 0.29 ftL. So you figure you'd need to produce 290ftL (1000 x 0.29) on screen to get peak white bright enough for "full" HDR performance. To get that appropriate brightness and assuming one can actually achieve 5000 lumens of brightness with this machine (which is doubtful due to a lack of perfect out of the box calibration and needing the P3 filter in place for UHD BD REC2020 mode) it needs to be on a very specific screen size. If one were using a unity gain 16/9 screen and actually had 5000 lumens that means you'd need to use a screen that's 17.24 square feet (5000/290). That means one could only use a ~76" diagonal screen for it to be fully HDR compliant. One might as well buy a cheaper 75" 4K OLED.

My guess though is that this unit will probably produce somewhere between 3500-4000 lumens after calibration and with the P3 filter in place. We'll give it the benefit of the doubt and use the higher 4000 lumen number. So that means you'd need 20% smaller screen (~60" 16/9 diagonal screen) to be fully HDR compliant at 1000 nits of peak white brightness. Or use a slightly positive gain screen and remain around only 76" diagonal. Again, I think most people would prefer a larger OLED 4K, which would also cost dramatically less and offer subjectively better image quality.

Case in point...if one is looking for full UHD BD HDR brightness compliance DO NOT look to front projection and expect to get large image sizes.

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Old 02-20-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by netroamer View Post
If 1000 nits is equal to 1000lm meter2 ...
1000 nits is 1000 cd/m2.
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with the eventual HDR spec of 5000nits
The current curve has encoding levels up to 10,000 nits. The 1000 nit encodes only go up to about 75% encoded level since they don't encode anything above 1000.
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that should mean that the VW5000 is capable of producing the entire HDR range at the output point of the projector (lens) and that all the dynamic range proportionate to the screen size and throw distance would be present? I'm not an engineer...just asking!
Besides what Seegs mentioned there is the problem where just raising the white and black levels doesn't make things HDR. Black is supposed to stay dim while white is raised.

A dynamic iris could help some, but if a projector has a native on/off CR of say 10k:1 then setting it up for 1000 nits will mean that the native black floor goes to 0.1 nits.

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Old 02-20-2016, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
1000 nits is 1000 cd/m2.
The current curve has encoding levels up to 10,000 nits. The 1000 nit encodes only go up to about 75% encoded level since they don't encode anything above 1000.
Besides what Seegs mentioned there is the problem where just raising the white and black levels doesn't make things HDR. Black is supposed to stay dim while white is raised.

A dynamic iris could help some, but if a projector has a native on/off CR of say 10k:1 then setting it up for 1000 nits will mean that the native black floor goes to 0.1 nits.

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This is why I really think OLED is best suited for HDR. IIRC there aren't any consumer units for sale that can do do the full 1000 nits yet. Hopefully in a couple years they'll figure out a way to increase brightness and increase the native color gamut of these displays.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
We tend to use imperial measurements on the forum. One nit is equal to 0.29 ftL. So you figure you'd need to produce 290ftL (1000 x 0.29) on screen to get peak white bright enough for "full" HDR performance. To get that appropriate brightness and assuming one can actually achieve 5000 lumens of brightness with this machine (which is doubtful due to a lack of perfect out of the box calibration and needing the P3 filter in place for UHD BD REC2020 mode) it needs to be on a very specific screen size. If one were using a unity gain 16/9 screen and actually had 5000 lumens that means you'd need to use a screen that's 17.24 square feet (5000/290). That means one could only use a ~76" diagonal screen for it to be fully HDR compliant. One might as well buy a cheaper 75" 4K OLED.

My guess though is that this unit will probably produce somewhere between 3500-4000 lumens after calibration and with the P3 filter in place. We'll give it the benefit of the doubt and use the higher 4000 lumen number. So that means you'd need 20% smaller screen (~60" 16/9 diagonal screen) to be fully HDR compliant at 1000 nits of peak white brightness. Or use a slightly positive gain screen and remain around only 76" diagonal. Again, I think most people would prefer a larger OLED 4K, which would also cost dramatically less and offer subjectively better image quality.

Case in point...if one is looking for full UHD BD HDR brightness compliance DO NOT look to front projection and expect to get large image sizes.

If I read this correctly, my hypothesis of enjoying HDR proportionate to screen size, gain, and throw distance is correct. I would rather have a little improvement on my 155" diag 2.40 screen than relegated to a much smaller OLED panel.
Well, I guess I can take some solace in the fact that there is no digital cinema capable of projecting a fully compliant HDR image either based on the 16-18fl SMPTE standard.

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Old 02-20-2016, 11:18 AM
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If I read this correctly, my hypothesis of enjoying HDR proportionate to screen size, gain, and throw distance is correct. I would rather have a little improvement on my 155" diag 2.40 screen than relegated to a much smaller OLED panel.
Well, I guess I can take some solace in the fact that there is no digital cinema capable of projecting a fully compliant HDR image either based on the 16-18fl SMPTE standard.
And there never will be because the HDR standard is 290ftL. That's the new standard to reach if you want to be fully HDR compliant.
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Old 02-20-2016, 01:32 PM
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And there never will be because the HDR standard is 290ftL. That's the new standard to reach if you want to be fully HDR compliant.
And when will movie theaters change? IIRC the spec call for 16 ftL.
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Old 02-20-2016, 01:35 PM
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And when will movie theaters change? IIRC the spec call for 16 ftL.
Hopefully pretty soon. Right now commercial HDR is 100 nits, which for projectors, if far more attainable. If you check out Dolby's website you'll there are already several Dolby HDR theaters in the US. Hopefully that number will grow. But if it does it'll do it slowly as these projectors are quite a bit brighter and therefore more expensive than normal DCI units. It will also take more HDR content to force theaters to upgrade. There's only been a handful of theatrically released HDR titles so far.
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Old 02-20-2016, 07:48 PM
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And there never will be because the HDR standard is 290ftL. That's the new standard to reach if you want to be fully HDR compliant.
When you upgrade to that 50,000 lumen projector for HDR, be sure you upgrade your electrical power system.

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Old 02-20-2016, 09:58 PM
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When you upgrade to that 50,000 lumen projector for HDR, be sure you upgrade your electrical power system.
Maybe if seegs takes all his projectors and focuses them through super lens.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:38 AM
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Due to the HDMI limitation on the Sony, I suspect that the Samsung player is sending Rec709 8 bit 4:2:0.
What does the BT2020 color space setting do in the Expert Picture menu on the 665?
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Old 02-21-2016, 05:44 AM
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What does the BT2020 color space setting do in the Expert Picture menu on the 665?
It's a compatibility mode for when the projector is being sent REC2020 color points from a UHD BD player. But that obviously necessitates one to make sure it's actually being sent REC2020 color points if you want reasonably accurate color when this is enabled.

The 665 can't do a P3 gamut let alone REC2020. So this mode must truncate the points down into a smaller triangle, aka a compatible mode but not entirely accurate.
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Old 02-21-2016, 05:45 AM
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Maybe if seegs takes all his projectors and focuses them through super lens.
Don't tempt me.
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Old 02-21-2016, 06:41 AM
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What does the BT2020 color space setting do in the Expert Picture menu on the 665?
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It's a compatibility mode for when the projector is being sent REC2020 color points from a UHD BD player. But that obviously necessitates one to make sure it's actually being sent REC2020 color points if you want reasonably accurate color when this is enabled.

The 665 can't do a P3 gamut let alone REC2020. So this mode must truncate the points down into a smaller triangle, aka a compatible mode but not entirely accurate.
So if you have the UHD BD player outputting Rec2020 and the 665 is set up correctly, then you get a slightly wider color space than rec709, since that is all the 665 can do. 665 can't reach DCI color space since it does not have a P3 filter. The VW1100 can reach DCI color space, but the 1100 does not have HDR. Also the 1100 loses a lot of lumens, if the P3 filter is engaged, so it may not be bright enough for many people.

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Old 02-21-2016, 11:49 AM
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If I set my 1100 to DCI color space will it automagically re-map rec.2020 content down to the DCI space? Or do I need an external processing box to do that math?

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Old 02-21-2016, 12:05 PM
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If I set my 1100 to DCI color space will it automagically re-map rec.2020 content down to the DCI space? Or do I need an external processing box to do that math?
The projector cannot remap the REC2020 color points. I don't know of any external video processor that can do the conversion. Will the new Lumagen? I do know that MadVR can convert REC2020 to P3. But to use that you'll need to wait for AACS 2.0 to be cracked. I'm assuming if you plug the UHD BD player it will recognize it as a nom-HDR capable display which means it will convert the color points to REC709 anyways. You'd probably need something like the HDFury Integral to trick the player into thinking it's HDR capable to get the REC2020 color points out of the player to get this to work.

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Old 02-21-2016, 07:45 PM
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I'm assuming if you plug the UHD BD player it will recognize it as a nom-HDR capable display which means it will convert the color points to REC709 anyways. You'd probably need something like the HDFury Integral to trick the player into thinking it's HDR capable to get the REC2020 color points out of the player to get this to work.
If your assumption is correct, what do you think would happen with a 665ES? Since it is capable of receiving the HDR signal let's assume the blu-ray player would also send it the wider color space data - which it cannot display. So what would the projector do with pixels that the player told it to display in colors it is not physically capable of rendering?

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Old 02-21-2016, 07:52 PM
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If your assumption is correct, what do you think would happen with a 665ES? Since it is capable of receiving the HDR signal let's assume the blu-ray player would also send it the wider color space data - which it cannot display. So what would the projector do with pixels that the player told it to display in colors it is not physically capable of rendering?
In the case of the 665ES it has software built in to remap the REC2020 color points to a gamut a little bit wider than REC709. With the 1100ES there's no such support. It would make sense to have the UHD BD player convert the color points to REC709. In this mode, however, the bit depth of the content is turned to 8 bit and from what people are saying so far with other non-HDR 4K displays, when this happens, there seems to be a lot of visible banding within the image. So I'm not sure UHD BD can look all that great on the 1100ES. I think it's going to take some sort of separate processor or HTPC software that can remap the REC2020 color points to P3 and strip HDR meta-data out for it to look good on an 1100ES. The wait for this device/software may be a while though.
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Old 02-21-2016, 07:58 PM
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In the case of the 665ES it has software built in to remap the REC2020 color points to a gamut a little bit wider than REC709. With the 1100ES there's no such support.
Couldn't Sony release a firmware update for the 1100ES? Or at least start putting a remapping program into newly manufactured 1100's? It makes no sense for their $28K, glass-lensed show-piece projector to have less ability to handle a 4K UHD Blu-ray signal than their projector which is half the price.

They must understand this situation and be planning to release an updated 1100ES, even if they don't update the units already in the field.
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:03 PM
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Couldn't Sony release a firmware update for the 1100ES? Or at least start putting a remapping program into newly manufactured 1100's? It makes no sense for their $28K, glass-lensed show-piece projector to have less ability to handle a 4K UHD Blu-ray signal than their projector which is half the price.

They must understand this situation and be planning to release an updated 1100ES, even if they don't update the units already in the field.
One could argue the 5000ES is now their "show-piece" projector. I'm not saying an update won't come, but from what Sony told people at CEDIA they made it sound as if we shouldn't expect an update for this unit. It's been several months since CEDIA and not a peep has come about an update to support HDR or other UHD BD features. Right now your best hope would be that some thrid party device or software can remedy some of these issues.
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:29 PM
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That is really weird if it's true Sony won't update the 1100ES but will still keep building it and trying to sell it. You're right of course that the 5000ES is now the showpiece in the line.

But how is a Sony dealer supposed to explain to a client why the 1100ES won't support the color gamut or HDR when the 665ES at half the sticker price will? That has to be a tough sell now that HD Blu-ray is here.

Seems like an odd business decision not to make a "1200ES" with HDR and rec.2020 support.

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Old 02-21-2016, 08:33 PM
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Maybe they will make a 1200ES. We'll have to see. Though these exact questions were asked at CEDIA and people were told no update to the 1000ES/1100ES was planned.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:37 PM
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They probably are working on a 1200ES to fill the gap because the 5000ES is too expensive. Only thing is by the time it's released, we'll likely see a 4K JVC.

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Old 02-22-2016, 01:09 AM
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Are all owners still using Custom Color Temp 1 for their calibrations?

Over the three years of ownership I've had to move through the color temp memories to find the one closest to D65. Yesterday I had to start with Color Temp 5, and even then almost ran out of blue adjustment before hitting D65 white. The memory blocks 1-4 are now unusable as they are so far off D65 they cannot be corrected. After block 5 I have nowhere to go...

The uniformity on my panel is also noticeably off these days, so much so that watching black and white films is almost impossible due to the noticeable shade changes across the screen.

All this on top of the contrast loss issue... :/

I've put a call in with my dealer to see if I can get Sony to look at this, but wondered if others were also finding they have to use different Color Temp memories these days? Or whether their uniformity is worse now than when the projector was new?

My cinema: The Cave!
My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen Pro, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:32 AM
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How about using the HDFury Integral? It claims to inject HDR. Also it seems it can be used to tell which format of video is being input/output which also seems to be an issue as you can't really tell with some 4K/UHD equipment as their (On Screen) INFO/Display is lacking.
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