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post #13681 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Have you actually measured the unit? As many would point out, pictures are meaningless as far as contrast goes. If I wanted to I could get a DLP projector to look as good with my camera. In fact I might just do that this evening. When you use the word denial what are you referring to? Are you using these photos as evidence against the claim that your unit will/has lost contrast?
Why so negative dude
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post #13682 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Why so negative dude
He's using pictures to show us contrast performance. Apparently this is also how he plans on refuting contrast loss.
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post #13683 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
He's using pictures to show us contrast performance. Apparently this is also how he plans on refuting contrast loss.
Ever think not every one shares your opinion or enthusiasm for this topic? Can't just appreciate the screen shots for what they are??
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post #13684 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 02:41 PM
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Just be objective please..I hope the price won't blind the negatives...
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post #13685 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 02:57 PM
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thought I'd ask this question. The prices on eBay is $10000.00 plus shipping and I know it does not have USA warranty and the price locally is around $25000.00 and sometimes less. I'm considering to buy the 1100ES from Japan. Is there a place in the USA to buy reasonable warranty? And the next question is why is the price in the USA is more than double compared to Japan? Btw, the eBay seller has a good feedback and on top of that eBay offers protection from fraud. Any thought?
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post #13686 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
These are some pics of my 1100 showing excellent contrast levels (untouched). Denial?...I think not.
What is it your think these pictures prove?

If people want an AVS-anti-science website somebody could start one. I think joerod would probably be a huge fan of the place.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but these pictures prove close to nothing. If you ever come to understand the subject matter around here better you will probably understand that and there are those of us who are willing to help, but if people prefer technical ignorance there isn't a whole lot we can do.

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post #13687 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 04:30 PM
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For those who may wonder why screenshots like those posted don't prove great contrast ratio for a projector I'll throw out a basic audio question.

If I recorded my audio system playing a song and posted an audio file that you could listen to on your phone or computer, would it prove that my system had great dynamic range?

If I did such a thing should we all rejoice about what it proves and put down anybody who is a nay-sayer about that proving how good my audio system is, while encouraging ignorance, or should we maybe educate some people so they aren't misled this time or the next time?

I would personally prefer that readers here understood how and why things work. I get the feeling there is a tight nit group here who would prefer the opposite.

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post #13688 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post
Just be objective please..I hope the price won't blind the negatives...
Good luck with that.......
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post #13689 of 14305 Old 03-07-2016, 10:59 PM
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Okey dokey - I've got my Sammy 8500 up and running. No issues so far with playback. How can I determine whether I am getting 8 bit color and rec.709 color fed to the projector?
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post #13690 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
For those who may wonder why screenshots like those posted don't prove great contrast ratio for a projector I'll throw out a basic audio question.

If I recorded my audio system playing a song and posted an audio file that you could listen to on your phone or computer, would it prove that my system had great dynamic range?

If I did such a thing should we all rejoice about what it proves and put down anybody who is a nay-sayer about that proving how good my audio system is, while encouraging ignorance, or should we maybe educate some people so they aren't misled this time or the next time?

I would personally prefer that readers here understood how and why things work. I get the feeling there is a tight nit group here who would prefer the opposite.

--Darin
Great point.

I'm sure many of us are viewing these images on computer monitors with contrast ratios somewhere less than 1000:1. You really can't tell much about an image with CR of 18,000:1 or 4,500:1.
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post #13691 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 04:46 AM
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Since the thread last night had a major clean up, I am posting a highly edited version of my rebuttal, and that's the last I will say on the matter.

I know very well what the pics prove and what they don't prove. Lots of variables, i.e. camera quality, the display quality and ability to display low contrast levels that you are watching the pics on, ambient light levels in the room the pics were taken and LOTS of other factors that make it impossible to prove numerical contrast levels with a photo.

These photos certainly show an image that "appears" to be darn good: contrast, contrast detail, ansi contrast, picture detail, brightness....all look great in the pics....do they not? That is if you are watching it on a high quality display...which on MY display look very similar to how it does in person... and that's what really matters. You take them for what they are pics....
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post #13692 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 05:07 AM
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One of my all time favorite threads was the "Show us your screen shots" one. As long as everyone gets we are not trying to measure them they are fun. I would definitely prefer awesome screen shots of various scenes than to see close ups of Tom Cruise's face over and over again.



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post #13693 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This is my last post in this tread!

I was only informing people in here about Sony and the little information I could give, but it ended up is a stupid Sony vs JVC discussion like always. This time like always it was started by Sony owners who dont like the information coming about the panel degradation happening with their beloved VW1100. I will not post any more info in here even if I can without compromising friends and people I actually know and respect.

Sony is working on fixing it, but they have not found the solution yet and the new models including the VW5000ES will probably have the same issues to some degree. But this is not 100% sure yet as people have not measured and remeasured many of these new models (HW65, VW320, VW520 and VW5000ES) yet and I don´t know of any having enough hours yet to show the degradation. I am personally following a VW520 to see what happens and I will not post my results in here as I only get harassed and made a fool of by Sony fanatics.
Oh come on, "take your ball and go home" time??

All I care about at this point is that:

1) Sony knows there is a problem
2) They will not acknowledge it
3) At this point, I don't expect or demand they give me a fix, but if they have any specific information on how to decrease the degradation that they are withholding it is BEYOND UNETHICAL. It is counter-intuitive to believe MORE use decreases the degradation. It is more likely a combination of factors.

They need to fess up with every piece of information they have and update it as they get more specifics!

If anyone reading this has details they can share privately PLEASE PM me! I will keep my lips sealed if that is what it takes to get a nugget of truth about this!
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post #13694 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 10:26 AM
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Okey dokey - I've got my Sammy 8500 up and running. No issues so far with playback. How can I determine whether I am getting 8 bit color and rec.709 color fed to the projector?
Hi Chris, have you got any screenshots of any Images the 1100 is throwing out with the Samsung?

I'm in the Uk and just waiting for both the Samsung and Panasinic spinners to become available before I decide which to get.

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post #13695 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Since the thread last night had a major clean up, I am posting a highly edited version of my rebuttal, and that's the last I will say on the matter.
If the moderators allow you to leave things they had deleted and reposted then I am going to respond too. I am fine with them deleting both of our posts.
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I know very well what the pics prove and what they don't prove.
You do? Sure doesn't sound like it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
These photos certainly show an image that "appears" to be darn good: contrast, contrast detail, ansi contrast, picture detail, brightness....all look great in the pics....do they not?
So, they "appear" good. So what?

Sounds like you claim to know they show close to nothing about your contrast ratio, yet acted like they did.

Denial? I think so.
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One of my all time favorite threads was the "Show us your screen shots" one. As long as everyone gets we are not trying to measure them they are fun. I would definitely prefer awesome screen shots of various scenes than to see close ups of Tom Cruise's face over and over again.
Seems like you aren't really following the technical conversation all that well. If these had been posted as just fun screen shots the responses would have been much different. Looks like G-Rex went back and modified the original post from what he had claimed about them.

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post #13696 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 10:47 AM
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May I suggest an experiment? Take a full-frame pic of a full black screen and another of a full-white. Post them on AVS. Then display them in the browser on your computer, full-frame again and in a light-controlled environment. Using a light meter, measure the on/off contrast by measuring each image and dividing the black results into the white. I think you'll find there's no relation to reality.
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post #13697 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 11:12 AM
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May I suggest an experiment? Take a full-frame pic of a full black screen and another of a full-white. Post them on AVS. Then display them in the browser on your computer, full-frame again and in a light-controlled environment. Using a light meter, measure the on/off contrast by measuring each image and dividing the black results into the white.
Exactly. The pics don't really contain the on/off CR or ANSI CR, so how can they show great performance for those like G-Rex still seems to claim they do, all while claiming he does understand what they do and don't prove?

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post #13698 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 11:17 AM
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I have seen guys take pics of $1,000 DLP images that look better than pics I can take from a VW1100. Just means my camera skills and or camera equipment sucks compared to theirs.

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post #13699 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Billybobjimbob View Post
Hi Chris, have you got any screenshots of any Images the 1100 is throwing out with the Samsung?

I'm in the Uk and just waiting for both the Samsung and Panasinic spinners to become available before I decide which to get.
Screenshots are useless and won't tell you anything.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #13700 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 12:00 PM
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Screenshots are useless and won't tell you anything.
Ok.

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post #13701 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 12:02 PM
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Check out this thread re screen shots. Read the responses and note those who responded.

UHD Blu-Rays - Report Your FIRST IMPRESSIONS Here!
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post #13702 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Check out this thread re screen shots. Read the responses and note those who responded.

UHD Blu-Rays - Report Your FIRST IMPRESSIONS Here!
I've seen that thread but was interested specifically with how the 1100 was getting on. There's been very limited feedback from Wolfgang and a couple of guys on here.

I'll just wait till I get my mitts on a spinner and assess things for myself. Thanks for the link though, I appreciate it

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post #13703 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 12:13 PM
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I think screencaps can be valid when done properly to see discrepancies in detail and definition while comparing images. They can be used comparing a Blu-ray remaster to the older version, for example, to look for changes in detail, grain structure, etc. However, when it comes to contrast and black levels lies the difficulty. This flaw was pointed out years ago in the plasma threads trying to show how much better contrast a plasma would have compared to an LED - yet photos could show them looking about identical with contrast/blacks when everyone knew a low level Vizio LED could not compete with a newer gen Panasonic plasma. Color can also be difficult to compare with caps although not as difficult as blacks.
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post #13704 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I think screencaps can be valid when done properly to see discrepancies in detail and definition while comparing images. They can be used comparing a Blu-ray remaster to the older version, for example, to look for changes in detail, grain structure, etc. However, when it comes to contrast and black levels lies the difficulty. This flaw was pointed out years ago in the plasma threads trying to show how much better contrast a plasma would have compared to an LED - yet photos could show them looking about identical with contrast/blacks when everyone knew a low level Vizio LED could not complete with a newer gen Panasonic plasma. Color can also be difficult to compare with caps although not as difficult as blacks.
This is partially what interests me, a Bluray equivalent compared to the UHD counterpart. Again, it's only a bit of fun, there's no substitute for first hand experience.

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post #13705 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 01:01 PM
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This is partially what interests me, a Bluray equivalent compared to the UHD counterpart. Again, it's only a bit of fun, there's no substitute for first hand experience.
Fun is good. I just don't want to see Internet pictures used to debunk serious defect claims on an expensive projector.
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post #13706 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 01:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I think screencaps can be valid when done properly to see discrepancies in detail and definition while comparing images. They can be used comparing a Blu-ray remaster to the older version, for example, to look for changes in detail, grain structure, etc. However, when it comes to contrast and black levels lies the difficulty. This flaw was pointed out years ago in the plasma threads trying to show how much better contrast a plasma would have compared to an LED - yet photos could show them looking about identical with contrast/blacks when everyone knew a low level Vizio LED could not compete with a newer gen Panasonic plasma. Color can also be difficult to compare with caps although not as difficult as blacks.
He doesn't understand this. Even though his "rebuttal" response (and one that was supposedly his last post on the topic) says his intent was to only be taken for "what they are" but it's clear he has another reason for posting them. And that reason is to try and show that his unit has not lost contrast. I'll post this screenshot comparison here. Which do you think is a JVC and which is a 2500:1 Marantz VP-15S1?

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comp....php?id=164774

Why post screen shots when it's so much easier just to measure the unit?
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post #13707 of 14305 Old 03-08-2016, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Check out this thread re screen shots. Read the responses and note those who responded.

UHD Blu-Rays - Report Your FIRST IMPRESSIONS Here!
The problem here is that those posts in that thread are just to say, look at this! Looks cool huh! But your pics were to dispel the theory that your projector is losing contrast, and those pics can't do that. I totally respect and understand that YOU are happy with the contrast performance of your projector. No one is disputing that. But that doesn't mean that you haven't lost contrast performance that your projector is capable of, or that others with this projector haven't either. I see setups ALL THE TIME that have a multitude of compromises but the owners are happier than a pig in *#%# with them. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if you are trying to be even somewhat scientific and objective about it, all that goes out the window with your pictures. This is also the reason some here have issues with some "reviewers" reviews that offer absolutely no objective worth at all, only comments like THIS LOOKS FANTASTIC! LOOK AT THESE PICS!!!!
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post #13708 of 14305 Old 03-09-2016, 02:05 PM
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The problem here is that those posts in that thread are just to say, look at this! Looks cool huh! But your pics were to dispel the theory that your projector is losing contrast, and those pics can't do that. I totally respect and understand that YOU are happy with the contrast performance of your projector. No one is disputing that. But that doesn't mean that you haven't lost contrast performance that your projector is capable of, or that others with this projector haven't either. I see setups ALL THE TIME that have a multitude of compromises but the owners are happier than a pig in *#%# with them. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if you are trying to be even somewhat scientific and objective about it, all that goes out the window with your pictures. This is also the reason some here have issues with some "reviewers" reviews that offer absolutely no objective worth at all, only comments like THIS LOOKS FANTASTIC! LOOK AT THESE PICS!!!!
My Sony 1000es has better contrast(irrespective of whether it has lost contrast or not---it probably has) than my Panny AE2000.


It has greater sharpness than my PannyAE2000.
But guess what...depending on the material(and the mastering processes involved) being viewed---movies derived from dupe stocks,CRIs, optical composites, diffuse filters, varying depths of field, differing film stocks, low light photography,16mm to 35mm blow ups, Mattes,2 perf 35mm or 4 perf 35mm sources,70mm reductions to 35mm composites and a whole host of other factors that go well beyond what test patterns are meant to indicate.......and it can be the Panny that can express the most aesthetically pleasing image...surpassing that of the Sony......and I know because I have spent the best part of 4 years comparing these 2 projectors.
Admittedly I only became aware of this when having the 2 side by side....if I had not then I would have just have assumed that extra resolution or better contrast meant better picture quality for everything.


I was already aware that better contrast DOES NOT mean better image quality when I side tested the AE2000 side by side with JVC HD1 in 2008.The superior colour gradations that the Panny displayed outweighed the better(but hardly superior) contrast that the JVC offered.
I have seen OLEDs display incredible blacks......with lousy motion, excessive image noise and colour banding.
So whilst your scientific analysis regarding contrast(or the loss of it) are valued......they are NOT definitive at all with regards to how the material itself will look.
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post #13709 of 14305 Old 03-09-2016, 02:16 PM
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Think I might change that last sentence to once again reflect on my point from the other post:


You:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
So whilst your scientific analysis are valued......they are NOT definitive at all with regards to how the material itself will look.



Me: So whilst your scientific analysis are valued......they are NOT definitive at all with regards to how the material itself will look subjectively to me.


I do not pretend to know what your preference is for picture quality or what traits in the picture you deem more important than others. People like all kinds of things that have me completely bewildered. But that has little to do with objective testing or using subjective claims to try and combat objective results. We see this all the time with vinyl lovers and their never ending quest to say that it is a better technical format than CD despite clear objective testing that demonstrates that it is not. Nothing wrong with saying you LIKE vinyl better, but trying to take that preference and make it into something objective (it must clearly be better technically or else I wouldn't like it more!) is where the problem starts.


I've said it many times before, most of today's projectors are all VERY good and deliver images that most would be MORE than happy with. And what some people weigh as important others don't. That is why there is no absolute best, because wants/needs typically outweigh a tech sheet.

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post #13710 of 14305 Old 03-09-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Think I might change that last sentence to once again reflect on my point from the other post:


You:





Me: So whilst your scientific analysis are valued......they are NOT definitive at all with regards to how the material itself will look subjectively to me.


I do not pretend to know what your preference is for picture quality or what traits in the picture you deem more important than others. People like all kinds of things that have me completely bewildered. But that has little to do with objective testing or using subjective claims to try and combat objective results. We see this all the time with vinyl lovers and their never ending quest to say that it is a better technical format than CD despite clear objective testing that demonstrates that it is not. Nothing wrong with saying you LIKE vinyl better, but trying to take that preference and make it into something objective (it must clearly be better technically or else I wouldn't like it more!) is where the problem starts.


I've said it many times before, most of today's projectors are all VERY good and deliver images that most would be MORE than happy with. And what some people weigh as important others don't. That is why there is no absolute best, because wants/needs typically outweigh a tech sheet.
Hehe


Well if you (and Seegs!) want to watch Voldemort attack Hogwarts:




...watch it on a JVC or an OLED and knock yourself out





If on the other hand you want to watch Corleone pop Sollozzo and McClusky:



.........watch it on the Panny.


Optimising your image through test patterns......jacking up the contrast or increasing the resolution won't help this scene from the Godfather....it will make it worse.
It will merely expose the grain and differing lighting filters for the various angles that were used to create this iconic scene(shot over 2 nights in 1970).


With image quality...sometimes less can be more.
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Last edited by TheSony4KRises; 03-09-2016 at 02:53 PM.
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