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post #13951 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This does not reflect what I saw when having the 1000ES and 1100ES. There was posterization and banding was in every single picture mode. The different modes simply changed how it looked on screen. Remembering the discussion we had several others said the same thing. I'm sure Zombie remembers seeing it other modes as well and it simply changing in the appearance of how it looked on screen depending on the mode chosen. There was not a single mode where it was gone completely.

This is absolutely correct as the posterization is a limitation in the panel drivers (according to Sony) it will always be present in the picture and not something that can be calibrated/switch preset to disappear. It changes with how the gamma is set, this goes with both posterization and banding problems.

And @TheSony4KRises : Are you not watching a calibrated image?

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post #13952 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This does not reflect what I saw when having the 1000ES and 1100ES. There was posterization and banding was in every single picture mode. The different modes simply changed how it looked on screen. Remembering the discussion we had several others said the same thing. I'm sure Zombie remembers seeing it other modes as well and it simply changing in the appearance of how it looked on screen depending on the mode chosen. There was not a single mode where it was gone completely.
I don't know Seegs.

In Reference Mode I can spot posterization and banding from at least 4 meters away.

The other modes obscure it more and I have to confess I have not pixel peeped in those modes.

But from normal viewing distance.....posterization is not visible in Cinema 1 or Digital Cinema mode(my new personal favorite)

I will get my hands on a better camera/phone and zap a few pictures myself.
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post #13953 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This is absolutely correct as the posterization is a limitation in the panel drivers (according to Sony) it will always be present in the picture and not something that can be calibrated/switch preset to disappear. It changes with how the gamma is set, this goes with both posterization and banding problems.

And @TheSony4KRises : Are you not watching a calibrated image?
Nope.
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post #13954 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Nope.
And you are happy with the image?? How many hours on your unit?

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post #13955 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This is absolutely correct as the posterization is a limitation in the panel drivers (according to Sony) it will always be present in the picture and not something that can be calibrated/switch preset to disappear. It changes with how the gamma is set, this goes with both posterization and banding problems.
As for the banding issue, it appears that Sony have solved this on the VW5000 model with a new firmware. Wolfgang Mayer posted a reply from a Sony VIP where they said their objective with this new firmware was to solve the banding issues "completely". This firmware is supposed to be released next week to my understanding.

However, i am not sure if this solution is also possible for the 1100/665 models.
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post #13956 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 12:17 PM
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As for the banding issue, it appears that Sony have solved this on the VW5000 model with a new firmware. Wolfgang Mayer posted a reply from a Sony VIP where they said their objective with this new firmware was to solve the banding issues "completely". This firmware is supposed to be released next week to my understanding.

However, i am not sure if this solution is also possible for the 1100/665 models.
That is really good news for VW5000ES owners!

And if they can fix it on the 5000, they can probably fix it on the 1100/665 also.

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post #13957 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 12:54 PM
 
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I'm talking to a 5000ES owner at the moment who is bothered by the banding issue on the 5000ES. I'm sure he'll give me the skinny on the new firmware once he installs it and verifies that it is "completely" gone, as that's how the Sony VIP mentioned how it corrects the issue.
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post #13958 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 01:06 PM
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Wolfgang has confirmed the new firmware has completely resolved the banding issue on the 5000.
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post #13959 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 01:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Wolfgang has confirmed the new firmware has completely resolved the banding issue on the 5000.
I'll take my chances and wait to hear from a source I trust more. I just know my source will scrutinize the image to be absolutely sure it's gone. And to be completely frank, this issue shouldn't have been there at all on any 4K SXRD unit. I've never encountered such an odd problem before, let alone expected to see it carry through a product line for 5+ years especially when you factor in the cost of these units (base 4k model is $10,000) and knowing for a fact it was brought to their attention shortly after the 1000ES was released and not addressed until now is even worse. If it can be fixed via software Sony owes it to their faithful projector owners a firmware update so it removes the issue on every 4K unit, not just their newest one.

Mark my words...if they can get rid of the issue on the 665ES through a firmware update, I'd gladly sell my RS500 and pick up a 665ES to replace it.

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post #13960 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'm talking to a 5000ES owner at the moment who is bothered by the banding issue on the 5000ES. I'm sure he'll give me the skinny on the new firmware once he installs it and verifies that it is "completely" gone, as that's how the Sony VIP mentioned how it corrects the issue.
he mentioned seeing the posterization as well on the 5000ES, let me know if he confirms that as well.

it finally took some big brass to get a hold of their engineers
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post #13961 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:09 PM
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And you are happy with the image?? How many hours on your unit?
Exceedingly happy.

Roughly 700 Hours on the unit.

Digital Cinema mode works for my preferences with my infrastructure.

For the first time i have found a solution which works for a wide variety of material(old and new flicks)

The A-Lens allows me to preserve light in digital cinema mode.

I also have a small screen(110 inches in width) compared to some of the folks around here.

I am very sensitive to posterization.........and I cannot see it from my viewing distance of 2.5 meters in Digital Cinema Mode(or Cinema 1).
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post #13962 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:16 PM
 
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am very sensitive to posterization.........and I cannot see it from my viewing distance of 2.5 meters in Digital Cinema Mode(or Cinema 1).
I never meant to imply that you could see it, I'm simply saying that it's still there. I too had a hard time seeing it most of the time. But it's what it does to the image that bothers me. It essentially erases fine detain in color information that should be there but can't because it can't actually display the fine gradations of color that it needs to show that detail. So it isn't as much of an issue of what I can't see, but more of an issue of "what could I be missing out on?" And if we go off of these close up photos it seems the answer to that question is "a decent amount".

VW1100



RS600

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post #13963 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I never meant to imply that you could see it, I'm simply saying that it's still there. I too had a hard time seeing it most of the time. But it's what it does to the image that bothers me. It essentially erases fine detain in color information that should be there but can't because it can't actually display the fine gradations of color that it needs to show that detail. So it isn't as much of an issue of what I can't see, but more of an issue of "what could I be missing out on?" And if we go off of these close up photos it seems the answer to that question is "a decent amount".
Here we go again...

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post #13964 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:25 PM
 
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Here we go again...
Don't really care what you think. The proof is in the picture...or in this case pictures. I don't see how you can sit there and not see a huge glaring issue in the two photos I posted and not be a little bit upset that the projector you own has such an issue? Are you really that callused into thinking that the issue has absolutely no negative impact on the image you're viewing? If you people were a little less stuck up about this projector you could have collectively said "gee...there seems to be an issue with the projector" and collectively told your dealers or contacts at Sony to actually get the engineers to fix the issue like the 5000ES owners seem to have done. But no...you guys keep sitting there patting each other on the back for owning the best projector ever made.
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post #13965 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Don't really care what you think. The proof is in the picture...or in this case pictures. I don't see how you can sit there and not see a huge glaring issue in the two photos I posted and not be a little bit upset that the projector you own has such an issue? Are you really that callused into thinking that the issue has absolutely no negative impact on the image you're viewing?

I keep seeing the same single example that was used months ago. You are implying the JVC has no flaws? I'm sure if I take a few pics inches away from the image we could find several flaws.
Here's one of my arm:
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post #13966 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I never meant to imply that you could see it, I'm simply saying that it's still there. I too had a hard time seeing it most of the time. But it's what it does to the image that bothers me. It essentially erases fine detain in color information that should be there but can't because it can't actually display the fine gradations of color that it needs to show that detail. So it isn't as much of an issue of what I can't see, but more of an issue of "what could I be missing out on?" And if we go off of these close up photos it seems the answer to that question is "a decent amount".

VW1100



RS600



I can tell that is Reference Mode for the 1000es.
Not sure if Zombie ever got back regarding whether he shot the same capture for the 1000es BUT in Cinema 1 Mode.
Or even better personally for me......Digital Cinema Mode which has has been a late discovery (for me).
Adds a green tinge,has less light and Black levels are not as good but has excellent color gradations.
Allied to the intrinsic sharpness of the 1000es it gives an image which I am very happy with.
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post #13967 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:50 PM
 
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I keep seeing the same single example that was used months ago. You are implying the JVC has no flaws? I'm sure if I take a few pics inches away from the image we could find several flaws.
Here's one of my arm:
Did you even see the photos? There's a picture of what the RS600 looks like right below the image of the VW1100ES. No issues with banding or posterization.
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post #13968 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 02:53 PM
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Did you even see the photos? There's a picture of what the RS600 looks like right below the image of the VW1100ES. No issues with banding or posterization.
As I stated earlier. The same example is being used. However, you neglect to point out potential image flaws with the 600. Again I ask, you implying the 600 is flawless?
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post #13969 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 03:02 PM
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As I stated earlier. The same example is being used. However, you neglect to point out potential image flaws with the 600. Again I ask, you implying the 600 is flawless?

Adidino

I recall you and Thrang were adamant that the 1100es threw a better picture(or at least a sharper picture) than the rs600.

Is that something that you would maintain or did more experimentation with the rs600 convince you that it was better than the 1100es....like OzHDT.

Your input is appreciated because you are one of the select few that had the opportunity to have them side by side.
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post #13970 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Addino

I recall you and Thrang were adamant that the 1100es threw a better picture(or at least a sharper picture) than the rs600.

Is that something that you would maintain or did more experimentation with the rs600 convince you that it was better than the 1100es....like OzHDT.
Honestly, I've had those children on ignore since their last anti-Sony blathering, so I'm simply not reading or rehashing.
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post #13971 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 03:10 PM
 
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As I stated earlier. The same example is being used. However, you neglect to point out potential image flaws with the 600. Again I ask, you implying the 600 is flawless?
The same example is being used because it's the reference we've all come to know. So when I looked at the new 665ES, I chose that source to take another photo to show that the issue is still there and in the same amount. If I were to arbitrarily choose another scene or close up what frame of reference do we have to go on? None at all, and is why we contintue to use that shot for comparisons. Trust me, I've spent plenty of time with several 4K units now and can say the issue is like that with all content, not one scene where Tom Cruise has a close up.

And of course the JVC projectors have flaws. I just don't feel anyone one of them is anywhere near as large as lower-than 8bit color resolution and quickly degradting SXRD panels that dramatically lower on/off contrast performance. You seem to think that I won't admit that JVCs have flaws. But if you were to take more than a step out of the bubble that this thread is you'd see that I talk about them frequently on the forum. JVCs light engine and optics allow for lower ANSI contrast compared to DLP and a few LCoS projectors. I also think JVC could update their panels to allow for better native motion resolution. Those are the two biggest "flaws" that they have in my opinion, but neither of these are anywhere near as large as the ones I've brought up about the 1000ES/1100ES.
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post #13972 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Adidino

I recall you and Thrang were adamant that the 1100es threw a better picture(or at least a sharper picture) than the rs600.

Is that something that you would maintain or did more experimentation with the rs600 convince you that it was better than the 1100es....like OzHDT.

Your input is appreciated because you are one of the select few that had the opportunity to have them side by side.

Not sure why he's attempting to rehash this. But to answer your question, yes, overall the 1100 produced a better image IMO. The JVC is no slouch but does not have the level of clarity I observed from the 1100 when we compared them.
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post #13973 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 03:20 PM
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Not sure why he's attempting to rehash this. But to answer your question, yes, overall the 1100 produce a better image IMO. The JVC is no slouch does not have the level of clarity I observed from the 1100 when we compared them.
many thanks for your thoughts Adidino.....appreciated.
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post #13974 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 03:34 PM
 
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Not sure why he's attempting to rehash this. But to answer your question, yes, overall the 1100 produced a better image IMO. The JVC is no slouch does not have the level of clarity I observed from the 1100 when we compared them.
Because it was mentioned that one of the other picture modes doesn't have the issue. I was simply reiterating that ALL of them have the issue. It's like you didn't even read the posts prior to your own. Don't really care which image you preferred overall. That's not what's being discussed here. This isn't a JVC vs Sony discussion. It's a Sony vs every other projector issue as I've never seen this issue on any other projector from any other manufacturer and I've had just about every home theater projector worth having from the past decade here. Over 50 unique models.

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It's funny seeing him (or them) at it again in the Sony threads. Especially knowing Dylan tried to buy a 1100 off someone very recently to turn a profit. Obviously the 1100 is good enough to him to make some fast cash. I say everyone active in the Sony threads do what myself and about 6 others do.

Simply IGNORE them.

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post #13976 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Adidino

I recall you and Thrang were adamant that the 1100es threw a better picture(or at least a sharper picture) than the rs600.

Is that something that you would maintain or did more experimentation with the rs600 convince you that it was better than the 1100es....like OzHDT.

Your input is appreciated because you are one of the select few that had the opportunity to have them side by side.
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Not sure why he's attempting to rehash this. But to answer your question, yes, overall the 1100 produced a better image IMO. The JVC is no slouch but does not have the level of clarity I observed from the 1100 when we compared them.

After doing several A/B's over 2 months, I had to concede, particularly with Sony 4K clips, tested from the FMP-X10, that there just wasn't enough in the PQ to justify holding on to the VW1100 over the RS600. The JVC just wasn't truly dropping the amount of fine detail when standing in front of the screen staring at the same parts of a scene, that you would clearly perceive at a even fairly close viewing distance on a large screen - in my case approx 13.5ft on an 11.5ft wide screen. Then not long after UHD dropped and after testing the 1100 with it vs the JVC, I couldn't stay with just BT.709 either.
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post #13977 of 14045 Old 09-12-2016, 07:11 PM
 
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It's funny seeing him (or them) at it again in the Sony threads. Especially knowing Dylan tried to buy a 1100 off someone very recently to turn a profit. Obviously the 1100 is good enough to him to make some fast cash. I say everyone active in the Sony threads do what myself and about 6 others do.

Simply IGNORE them.
Lol. You act high and mighty. Most of us know how you turn a profit by pushing people towards Sony products through your dealer. Back in November 2011 I emailed you after you mentioned that you could get the VW95ES at a great price. You told me:

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"avs is at 5700 plus shipping last I heard. Call Deluxe and tell them I sent you. 630 305 9955 Should be about 5400. Let me know.
How many others have you told to call Deluxe being sure to mention that you were the one who sent them there? Don't even try to teach me ethics when you're worse off then me. I have absolutely no incentive to push one brand over another on the forum. Sure, I keep an eye out on the used market looking to buy something undervalued to turn a profit. But I am in no way selling my self to one brand, making disingenuous posts, trying to keep issues quite or flat out lying about something to help push one brand to make some money or to get some sort of discount. I'm not that selfish and have enough self respect to never go that low. I simply call things as I see them. It's as simple as that. By your posting style you seem to only want to push one brand and one brand only. How much does Deluxe give you when customers mention your name? Is it a percentage thing or is money off of some future purchase? Just curious how the scam works? Do they want you to push Sony because the profit margins are higher? The funny thing is that people have PM'ed out of the blue to tell me the same thing I discovered for myself. I've literally been PM'ed 5 or 6 times by people to tell me to disregard anything you have to say because you're trying to push Sony products. It's interesting to see that 14 out of 19 total projector reviews done on your site have been with Sony units. Hmm...
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post #13978 of 14045 Old 09-13-2016, 01:32 AM
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Back in January when this argument blew up in the first place I took Zombie's original screen captures and put them side by side(instead of over and above--as Zombie originally presented them).

Now without any bias(even though I own the Sony and not the JVC) and being objective.... I have to categorically say that the Sony(on the left) gives the sharper picture(if that is the factor that one is most interested in)....at this level of magnification:



I circled Cruise's wrinkle to emphasize how much more pronounced and sharper looking it is on the 1100/1000es.

BUT

Putting the sharpness aside I do personally prefer the color tonality of the JVC in this instance.

BUT!....then again.

The 1000es does have both Cinema 1 mode(and my new personal favorite---Digital Cinema Mode) which express the same(or a similar) color tonality to that JVC shot.

So if Zombie is reading!......if he has(or ever took) a screen shot of the 1000/1100es in Cinema 1 Mode of the very same Tom Cruise picture, then that would be a better comparison to make with the JVC rs600 in this instance.

Seegs says there is still posterization on the 1000/1100 even in these modes(Cinema 1 and Digital Cinema) and I don't doubt him...

BUT!

It is far less pronounced in these modes(Cinema 1 & Digital Cinema)and not visible from normal seating distances ,unlike the posterization in Reference Mode, which most certainly is.

And my guess is that it won't be visible(or far less visible) in the screen shots that Zombie took(if he ever did take them)......at this level of magnification.

I don't want to have to buy an RS600 myself just to prove this point(when I could buy a 65 inch OLED with all the HDR bells and whistles)for roughly the same amount of money(here in the UK)!

On Edit:

What is the JVC like with E-shift turned off on the very same Tom Cruise shot.
If Zombie could show that too.....that would be interesting to see.

Last edited by TheSony4KRises; 09-13-2016 at 03:06 AM.
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post #13979 of 14045 Old 09-13-2016, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ddingle View Post
Yes.Indicated to be caused by a stuttering of the lamp power supply to improve bulb life expectancy. I noticed it a few weeks ago when trying to calibrate an upgraded 1000ES. The bands ended up in the middle of test patterns, making it impossible to measure effectively. I recently replaced the 800 hour bulb and the banding seems gone for now. The red adjustment in the custom 3 gray scale has to be set very high to achieve D65 as well. I am suspicious this set got worse after coming back from 1100ES upgrade from Sony
For the record i had this problem too.......the banding that was associated with the original bulb was gone when i swapped it out for a new one.........but that was 2 years ago and now it is back again
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post #13980 of 14045 Old 09-13-2016, 06:48 AM
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The 1000/1100 is going on 5 years old. If it is a close call with a flagship projector that came out less than a year ago that is saying something.

My Sony 5000ES Review PART 2 FINISHED:
http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1462841668379
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