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post #2221 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 01:35 PM
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Zombie,

I just got mine set up and watched a bit of 3D with a few others as we were comparing HDMI cables. I found it to be brighter then any 3D I've ever seen in a theater. I don't have my light meter right now but when Scopeguy brings it back during our meet next month I'll do some reading on the bulb at what ever hour/s it has on it at that time in both 2D and 3D. No Ghosting detected by any of the 4 of us on any of the scenes we used.

Also I have zero issues on the the PJ so far that I can see. I'll have Michael over for ISF calibration / certification next month so he'll confirm the unit is 100% at that time but for the quick tests I've done with the installers the unit is flawless. I have a few pics up in my thread.

Set up is "cave" with 138" 16:9 AT SMX (gain 1.0 to 1.1 ish). Projector is mounted at 16' back from screen and has very little in the way of "tweaking" such as lens shift etc.. it's just a couple of clicks on keystone and that is about it. Settings are cinema 1 out of the box and high lamp was only used for 3D.

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post #2222 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

I feel bad for people that read that review and decide this projector isn't good for 3d so cross it off their list. I have a 112" 1.4 gain screen at a throw of 15 feet and I would say the 3d is excellent.

Agreed. I haven't yet thought "wish this was brighter" when watching 3D... I am glad I no longer waste money on magazine subscriptions...

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post #2223 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 08:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by calv1n View Post

Zombie,

I just got mine set up and watched a bit of 3D with a few others as we were comparing HDMI cables. I found it to be brighter then any 3D I've ever seen in a theater. I don't have my light meter right now but when Scopeguy brings it back during our meet next month I'll do some reading on the bulb at what ever hour/s it has on it at that time in both 2D and 3D. No Ghosting detected by any of the 4 of us on any of the scenes we used.

Also I have zero issues on the the PJ so far that I can see. I'll have Michael over for ISF calibration / certification next month so he'll confirm the unit is 100% at that time but for the quick tests I've done with the installers the unit is flawless. I have a few pics up in my thread.

Set up is "cave" with 138" 16:9 AT SMX (gain 1.0 to 1.1 ish). Projector is mounted at 16' back from screen and has very little in the way of "tweaking" such as lens shift etc.. it's just a couple of clicks on keystone and that is about it. Settings are cinema 1 out of the box and high lamp was only used for 3D.

Cheers
Calvin

A couple of clicks on Keystone? To the best of my knowledge there are no keystone adjustments and if there are, they should not be used. I think you mean a couple of clicks of vertical lens shift. BTW Congratulations on joining the club. Its a great machine and mine worked perfectly having a great deal to do with the Caps beating Boston tonight.
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post #2224 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 08:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Agreed. I haven't yet thought "wish this was brighter" when watching 3D... I am glad I no longer waste money on magazine subscriptions...

The only regret I have in switching from a 1.3 gain screen to a 1.0 is in 3D watching. I can definately see a loss in snap in 3D, on 2D the unit is plenty bright on my 1.78 110" D. I will be getting a high gain scren for 3D. Remeber 3D eats up a lot of the ft lamberts and a 30% increase in brightness or rather a 30% loss in brightness for 3D is quite noticeable but quite watchable nevertheless. S till I misss that extra brightness for 3D.
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post #2225 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 08:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

acceptable brightness in 3D is one the most controversial forum topics since 3D projectors came out.

A number of owners have called out the HT review, but given how subjective this is, I was hoping we would have seen some other folks measure the lumen output in 3D and also through the glasses.

The author of the article states he measured the 1000 alongside the 95 and X70 (through the glasses) and the results are understandably hard to believe given how bright it is in 2D mode. Is something else going on with the shutter timing to reduce ghosting which might explain his low # ft-L through the glasses?

The unit is very bright in 2D but like other 3D shutter glass machines, about 85% of the 2D light will be lost in 3D even with the goosed up 3D presets. A small increase in foot lamberts is quite noticeable when the base line is small to begin with. The rule is a four fould increase will appear to ones eyes as twice as bright. In 2D, say getting 0 ft lamberts, one would have to go to 80 to see twice as bright. Staring with say 4 ft lamberts in 3D, an increase of 30%, say going to 5.2, is noticeable. The same increase from 20, just doesn't appear to mean much to ones eyes.

One must remeber that the reviewer being commented on, is heavily endowed with audio skills and I wouldn't consider him a video expert at this point in his quite laudable career.
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post #2226 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 08:27 PM
 
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Zombie. You need to see this thing. It would be the best damn thing that ever lit your large HP screen. Call me if you want me to bring it down this weekend.
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post #2227 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Zombie. You need to see this thing. It would be the best damn thing that ever lit your large HP screen. Call me if you want me to bring it down this weekend.

So true, Mark: with 323 hrs now on the lamp (I'm truly addicted!) I just measured ~ 35 ftL with a 136x72 pic (17x9 pic) on a HP2.4 screen. This is with high lamp; low lamp reduces it to ~ 25 ftL. Brightness is indeed a seducer!
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post #2228 of 10501 Old 04-25-2012, 11:03 PM
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Thanks Mark of course you are correct I meant lens shift but typed keystone. My bad. Thanks for the post and I'm happy to be part of the owner group / club for this PJ it's quite a machine. There were some scenes in Batman and Contraband tonight that looked so clear it was like being there... amazing picture from this beast.

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post #2229 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Agreed. I haven't yet thought "wish this was brighter" when watching 3D... I am glad I no longer waste money on magazine subscriptions...

+1 Joe. I was frankly incredibly stoked as well with the 3D of it after swapping over from the 95. I will be happy with this 3D performance for quite some time to come. I doubt even my next minor move to the next size screen at 123" diag will reduce my enjoyment.

My only grip is just when I feel like I'm pretty much in 3D bliss, there's no new 3D blurays around to enjoy and we don't have all those directv 3D channels to fall back to either!

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post #2230 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 09:33 AM
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i measure 29fl on the 14.5 ft wide hp 2.4 on high and 19 on low. thats with a 24ft throw. as for 3d, well it still isn't bright enough with this size screen and i usually choose the beautiful image over the 3d effect. i could zoom in for a smaller 3d image but like the bigger picture...there's always tradeoffs..i still rent a 3d from 3d blueray rentals once in a while just to get a 3d fix. great projector!
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post #2231 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post


+1 Joe. I was frankly incredibly stoked as well with the 3D of it after swapping over from the 95. I will be happy with this 3D performance for quite some time to come. I doubt even my next minor move to the next size screen at 123" diag will reduce my enjoyment.

My only grip is just when I feel like I'm pretty much in 3D bliss, there's no new 3D blurays around to enjoy and we don't have all those directv 3D channels to fall back to either!

Since I have yet to find a 95 in the wild, can you comment a bit on how the 3D compares between the two? I've seen a 1000, but nobody has the 95! I would expect the 1000 to be brighter, but I'm wondering about ghosting, motion, etc. General impressions of 2D picture quality would be great too. Thanks so much!

Mike Kobb
(Formerly "ReplayMike". These opinions are mine alone, and in no way reflect the opinions of employers past or present!)

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post #2232 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

Since I have yet to find a 95 in the wild, can you comment a bit on how the 3D compares between the two? I've seen a 1000, but nobody has the 95! I would expect the 1000 to be brighter, but I'm wondering about ghosting, motion, etc. General impressions of 2D picture quality would be great too. Thanks so much!

Thrang had both on hand at the same time and can comment. I was able to compare his 95 to my 1000 and the difference in brightness was pretty substantial. No ghosting at all on the 1000. The 95 had very minor ghosting on certain scenes but it wasn't a real issue. The 95 held up pretty well.


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post #2233 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 01:38 PM
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Got my new unit today... I am now dust blob free!

New unit looks great.. best convergence of all the ones I have seen. I dare say I could live with this one with panel adjustment turned off, but I made I think one click on red and maybe 2-3 each way on blue... but very happy.

Overall I think this is the best unit I have received, except for out of the box calibration. All three of the others were pretty much spot on, but this one is clearly off, with tinges of red clearly showing on the grayscale ramps. But no biggie.. I am sure I can mostly correct with the onboard controls, and of course with a future Radiance.

I will test more tonight as this was a very hurried test during my lunch break, so I might see something I missed....


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post #2234 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 01:57 PM
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I also did a few 3d observations and what I found surprised me. These tests were done with just my CA813 light meter in fc mode at the screen facing the projector. The screen is 133" diag 16:9 and the projector is at about a 23.5 ft throw. The projector was in my normal watching settings, which is reference, "normal" aspect, d65, rec709, gamma 2.4, film mode ON (decreases FC by about 5), contrast at 88 or 89, and auto IRIS limited (i think).

In 2d, with a 100 IRE field: 19FC
WIth 2d-3d mode engaged on Sony with NO glasses.... 8.9 FC
When placing the Sony glasses in front of the meter.... 1.5 FC

So maybe I had a misunderstanding of 3d modes, but I thought most 3d modes went UP in lumen output when engaged, and then back down of course with the glasses on. On this projector, simply engaging 3d mode kills half the brightness, bringing it in line with most of its cheaper competition.

Also the 3d grayscale was way off, with the middle IREs having a strong push toward green (glasses on and off) - VERY visible. And on the spears &munsil clipping patterns, green, red, and blue were getting clipped badly unless contrast was turned all the way down to the mid 60s! I will test this more tonight or tomorrow.


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post #2235 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 02:06 PM
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For those interested I've posted up a few screen shots of the 1000 in my thread (link in sig). Go to post 1168 if you'd like to view them. I'm enjoying tinkering with the unit and the pictures (as well as the camera I'm using). The preloaded settings are quite varied before you even start working on the real settings I've learned. I'm really looking forward to Michael getting this proffessionally set up to see what it's going to look like after he finishes up. Although I'm guessing it's not going to be anywhere near the difference it was when he ISF'd the 3 chip DLP last time!

On a side note much as hiaudio2 mentioned I'm amazed how much the glasses themselves cut down on the Lumens the picture is quite a bit brighter with out the glasses on. Does anyone know if all the glasses are the same in this regard ? (optoma and monster are the other 2 brands I think?)

Cheers
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Cheers
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post #2236 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I also did a few 3d observations and what I found surprised me. These tests were done with just my CA813 light meter in fc mode at the screen facing the projector. The screen is 133" diag 16:9 and the projector is at about a 23.5 ft throw. The projector was in my normal watching settings, which is reference, "normal" aspect, d65, rec709, gamma 2.4, film mode ON (decreases FC by about 5), contrast at 88 or 89, and auto IRIS limited (i think).

In 2d, with a 100 IRE field: 19FC
WIth 2d-3d mode engaged on Sony with NO glasses.... 8.9 FC
When placing the Sony glasses in front of the meter.... 1.5 FC

So maybe I had a misunderstanding of 3d modes, but I thought most 3d modes went UP in lumen output when engaged, and then back down of course with the glasses on. On this projector, simply engaging 3d mode kills half the brightness, bringing it in line with most of its cheaper competition.

Hi, can you change the CA813 to the LUX setting instead? Your screen is 4.86 Sq Meters, so to calculate lumens, just multiply the LUX read x 4.86.

If we convert FC to LUX (please verify this with the meter)

19FC = 204.5 LUX x 4.86 Sq Meters = 993 lumens
8.9FC = 95.8 LUX x 4.86 Sq meters = 465 Lumens
1.5FC = 16 LUX x 4.86 Sq Meters = 77 lumens (through the glasses)

The author of the HT review stated that his results were the same with 2D-3D vs. a true 3D signal.

your throw is quite a distance which would explain the 2D #'s. My projectors are closer to my 142" HP, ~ 17 Feet. I'll have to check it out when Mark visits with his VW1000.

Is there a specific 3D setting that increases the light output? it does seem odd that it would be 1/2 in the 3D mode. Some of the models i've tested all keep at least the same light output in 3D mode, or higher like the Epson 5010.

Thanks for posting the info.


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post #2237 of 10501 Old 04-26-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by calv1n View Post

Does anyone know if all the glasses are the same in this regard ? (optoma and monster are the other 2 brands I think?)

I'd be curious to know this as well.
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post #2238 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 03:12 AM
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Spent an interesting hour with a Sony engineer running some more tests on my unit which exhibits banding. Unfortunately, under my NDA I can't say much but things are happening. So please no questions, none. It looks like some of the issues will be fixed by software revisions. Shut up. No questions re how, where, or what. And I believe a cause for the white band has been isolated and a possible cause for the color banding related to possible jaring and tiny tiny movement of an optical part as a result of shipping. This would explain why not all units exhibit the color banding. I believe but am not sure that all exhibit the minor white band. Also I have a fix that will work for eliminating the color banding by adjustment in the service menu but to do so that way would be very very very labor intensive requiring many many calibration measurements and point or tiny zone fixes. Simply impracticable but doable. Could be automated with the right camera and automation but would require mucho mucho measurements and adjustments. Better to adjust the mechanical part if that is really the cause which would unlikely I think be field doable. But relax in Candy land. Sony is working on the issues and approaching solutions. They have the best warranty in the business as far as I am concerned. And remember, this banding is for the most part not visable when viewing content and at least for me has not detracted from my enjoyment of the unit. Fixes will be isolated. Please no questions or speculation here. I am very impressed with what Sony is doing here. No blind eye. No denial. No what problem. Like their original motto. Sony. No baloney


Mark, Thanks for the good info - its appreciated


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post #2239 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

+1 Joe. I was frankly incredibly stoked as well with the 3D of it after swapping over from the 95. I will be happy with this 3D performance for quite some time to come. I doubt even my next minor move to the next size screen at 123" diag will reduce my enjoyment.

My only grip is just when I feel like I'm pretty much in 3D bliss, there's no new 3D blurays around to enjoy and we don't have all those directv 3D channels to fall back to either!


OzHDHT

Would you say that the 1000ES is brighter or less bright then the 95ES in 3D ?
And how about the ghosting in relation to the 95ES ?

dj
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post #2240 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

OzHDHT

Would you say that the 1000ES is brighter or less bright then the 95ES in 3D ?
And how about the ghosting in relation to the 95ES ?

dj

I'm pretty sure I've given my comparison views in my initial testing time with 3D on the VW1000, it would be lost somewhere amongst this thread though. My experiences on the 110" diag 16:9 ST130 echo both Joerod's and Thomas J Norton's review findings with 3D- particularly with Joe also moving from the 95 to 1000. There is a quantum leap between the 2 units starting with brightness. For the money, the 95 is very capable in quality terms with 3D, and leaves it's predecessor for dead in ghosting and brightness. However, the VW1000 was for my experience, a jump straight up into cinema grade 3D PQ. Another level of clarity and depth is achieved with the VW1000 on top of the extra lumens. I struggled with the 95 to bring out ghosting, except for PS3 3D gaming, that was it's biggest 3D 'Achilles heal'. With the 95 it was well within a level where it was quite hard to detect with BD 3D. With the VW1000, everything I've run through on it in 3D so far, including the gaming torture test, I've not seen any signs of ghosting. I have one legendarily bad disc, which I think everyone here regards as the 'benchmark' for bad Blu Ray 3D ghosting, Imax Grand Canyon, that I haven't tried yet. I'm going to give it a shot in the next few days and see how it looks on the 1000. If there's anything to note from that disc, I'll def post on it.

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post #2241 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 05:41 AM
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I'd be curious to know this as well.

They are exactly the same glasses. I have both.


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post #2242 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 05:53 AM
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They are exactly the same glasses. I have both.

Same here too for me. I began with the MV3D starter kit then bought 2 pairs of Optomas to use with my set up as well. Both are produced by Bit Caldron.

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post #2243 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

I'm pretty sure I've given my comparison views in my initial testing time with 3D on the VW1000, it would be lost somewhere amongst this thread though. My experiences on the 110" diag 16:9 ST130 echo both Joerod's and Thomas J Norton's review findings with 3D- particularly with Joe also moving from the 95 to 1000. There is a quantum leap between the 2 units starting with brightness. For the money, the 95 is very capable in quality terms with 3D, and leaves it's predecessor for dead in ghosting and brightness. However, the VW1000 was for my experience, a jump straight up into cinema grade 3D PQ. Another level of clarity and depth is achieved with the VW1000 on top of the extra lumens. I struggled with the 95 to bring out ghosting, except for PS3 3D gaming, that was it's biggest 3D 'Achilles heal'. With the 95 it was well within a level where it was quite hard to detect with BD 3D. With the VW1000, everything I've run through on it in 3D so far, including the gaming torture test, I've not seen any signs of ghosting. I have one legendarily bad disc, which I think everyone here regards as the 'benchmark' for bad Blu Ray 3D ghosting, Imax Grand Canyon, that I haven't tried yet. I'm going to give it a shot in the next few days and see how it looks on the 1000. If there's anything to note from that disc, I'll def post on it.


Thanks OzHDHT

Im looking forward to hear about the GC, wich I know very good ( the water bouble in the start and the cameraman in the blue shirt is two very difficult scenes to handle )
BTW I do find my 95ES is good in 3D, but it is not ghostfree ( but ok and a lot better then my old 90ES ))

dj
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post #2244 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

With the VW1000, everything I've run through on it in 3D so far, including the gaming torture test, I've not seen any signs of ghosting. I have one legendarily bad disc, which I think everyone here regards as the 'benchmark' for bad Blu Ray 3D ghosting, Imax Grand Canyon, that I haven't tried yet. I'm going to give it a shot in the next few days and see how it looks on the 1000. If there's anything to note from that disc, I'll def post on it.

There's only a handful of scenes in GC that really stand out with ghosting including the tree scene ~ 12 mins that I posted in the mini-shootout thread.

The benchmark disk for detecting a projectors capabilities with 3D ghosting is the animation, 'Sammy's Adventures'. There is strong potential for ghosting in the majority of the scenes. The only projector i've seen so far that can handle this movie flawlessly is the BenQ W7000. It's also one of the best disks to show off 3D to visitors, the pop and depth is outstanding.

http://www.yesasia.com/us/sammys-adv...0-en/info.html

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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

So maybe I had a misunderstanding of 3d modes, but I thought most 3d modes went UP in lumen output when engaged, and then back down of course with the glasses on. On this projector, simply engaging 3d mode kills half the brightness, bringing it in line with most of its cheaper competition.

Can any other owners validate hifiaudio2's findings? You shouldn't need a light meter to see a 50% drop going from 2D to 3D mode.


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post #2245 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 08:17 AM
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has anyone tested input lag with the VW1000? The HW30 and VW95 both have very low lag, but this projector uses different panels....
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post #2246 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post




Can any other owners validate hifiaudio2's findings? You shouldn't need a light meter to see a 50% drop going from 2D to 3D mode.


Just to be clear, that was with 2d-3d mode engaged. You said above that the review indicated there was no difference between that and normal sourced true 3d, but just thought I would note that.

I wonder if this could be a bug that Sony could fix with firmware? Do ANY other projectors LOSE brightness when turning on the 3d mode?


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post #2247 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Just to be clear, that was with 2d-3d mode engaged. You said above that the review indicated there was no difference between that and normal sourced true 3d, but just thought I would note that.

I wonder if this could be a bug that Sony could fix with firmware? Do ANY other projectors LOSE brightness when turning on the 3d mode?

You talking about 2d-3d conversion mode? If so, I've never used that mode but could test it if you want.


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post #2248 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 09:41 AM
 
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To put the Sony in 3D mode, one must feed it a 3D signal.

So one would need say a 100% white field fed in at 3D.

I haven't attempted such a measurement and we need to talk actual measurements say off the screen for a 2D and 3D white field and not through the glasses because obviously therewould be a huge loss rather than an increase through the glasses.
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post #2249 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I also did a few 3d observations and what I found surprised me. These tests were done with just my CA813 light meter in fc mode at the screen facing the projector. The screen is 133" diag 16:9 and the projector is at about a 23.5 ft throw. The projector was in my normal watching settings, which is reference, "normal" aspect, d65, rec709, gamma 2.4, film mode ON (decreases FC by about 5), contrast at 88 or 89, and auto IRIS limited (i think).

In 2d, with a 100 IRE field: 19FC
WIth 2d-3d mode engaged on Sony with NO glasses.... 8.9 FC
When placing the Sony glasses in front of the meter.... 1.5 FC

So maybe I had a misunderstanding of 3d modes, but I thought most 3d modes went UP in lumen output when engaged, and then back down of course with the glasses on. On this projector, simply engaging 3d mode kills half the brightness, bringing it in line with most of its cheaper competition.

Also the 3d grayscale was way off, with the middle IREs having a strong push toward green (glasses on and off) - VERY visible. And on the spears &munsil clipping patterns, green, red, and blue were getting clipped badly unless contrast was turned all the way down to the mid 60s! I will test this more tonight or tomorrow.

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Hi, can you change the CA813 to the LUX setting instead? Your screen is 4.86 Sq Meters, so to calculate lumens, just multiply the LUX read x 4.86.

If we convert FC to LUX (please verify this with the meter)

19FC = 204.5 LUX x 4.86 Sq Meters = 993 lumens
8.9FC = 95.8 LUX x 4.86 Sq meters = 465 Lumens
1.5FC = 16 LUX x 4.86 Sq Meters = 77 lumens (through the glasses)

The author of the HT review stated that his results were the same with 2D-3D vs. a true 3D signal.

your throw is quite a distance which would explain the 2D #'s. My projectors are closer to my 142" HP, ~ 17 Feet. I'll have to check it out when Mark visits with his VW1000.

Is there a specific 3D setting that increases the light output? it does seem odd that it would be 1/2 in the 3D mode. Some of the models i've tested all keep at least the same light output in 3D mode, or higher like the Epson 5010.

Thanks for posting the info.

In 3D mode Sony projectors insert black frames between actual video frames to allow for the LCOS display chips to transition from one image to the next image (i.e., for the other eye). This is needed to keep 3D crosstalk/ghosting to acceptable levels. Thus in 3D you are running a much lower duty cycle and the average brightness (i.e., averaged over multiple frames) will be lower than in 2D mode even if each individual actual video frame (i.e., not counting black/transition frames) that is displayed is the same, or even a little brighter, than individual frames in 2D mode. The FC/LUX you measured is consistent with this.

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post #2250 of 10501 Old 04-27-2012, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

In 3D mode Sony projectors insert black frames between actual video frames to allow for the LCOS display chips to transition from one image to the next image (i.e., for the other eye). This is needed to keep 3D crosstalk/ghosting to acceptable levels. Thus in 3D you are running a much lower duty cycle and the average brightness (i.e., averaged over multiple frames) will be lower than in 2D mode even if each individual actual video frame (i.e., not counting black/transition frames) that is displayed is the same, or even a little brighter, than individual frames in 2D mode. The FC/LUX you measured is consistent with this.

Ok that makes sense... but wouldnt the Sony 95 do the same thing?... so its 3d lumens should be way less than the 1000? Didnt that review say they were pretty close to the same?


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