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post #2581 of 10190 Old 05-21-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

... A 1080p upconversion with a VP, then letting the Sony do the rest should be all you need for a while it seems like. ....

As noted above, though, even though Lumagen makes great products (I have a RadMini), the Sony itself upconverts 1080p to 4K extremely well, so it's not totally clear how much better it would be having a VP do it.
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post #2582 of 10190 Old 05-21-2012, 06:35 PM
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Can't say about 4K Lumagen, since it does not exist yet. I can say this though, the Lumagen does a better job scaling lower resolution to 1080P than the Sony 1000ES.

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post #2583 of 10190 Old 05-21-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

As noted above, though, even though Lumagen makes great products (I have a RadMini), the Sony itself upconverts 1080p to 4K extremely well, so it's not totally clear how much better it would be having a VP do it.

I just meant using the Lumagen to upscale DVDs or cable to 1080p, then letting the Sony upscale the 1080p to 4K.
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post #2584 of 10190 Old 05-21-2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Can't say about 4K Lumagen, since it does not exist yet. I can say this though, the Lumagen does a better job scaling lower resolution to 1080P than the Sony 1000ES.

That's useful info, Mike. Do you know if Sony's 'Reality Creation' has anything to do with DVD => 1080p upconversion, or only the 1080p=>4K?
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post #2585 of 10190 Old 05-21-2012, 10:25 PM
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If anyone wants a good laugh, definitely check out this thread over on the Red forums. The amount of misinformation is staggering, and, there are many, many more threads just like it. I really hope that a consumer in the market for a 1000 doesn't read this stuff and decide against it.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...er-20k!!/page6

Just a few nuggets I found after a brief skimming:
  • Sony rushed the VW1000ES to the market after Red officially unveiled their projector last month. Apparently, Sony has also developed a time machine.
  • The Sony is not upgradable and has a built-in "spoilage" date.
  • The 1000 is limited to 4K/24Htz because that's just how Sony made it (of course, it doesn't have anything to do with the HDMI 1.4 spec...).
  • The Red will be significantly lighter than the Sony (which is very easy to tell by looking at it through glass...)

I'm all for Red entering the projector game and I think they have the potential for a great product on their hands, but... wow... these people are scary! It's almost like a cult. Yikes!

What do you wanna bet Red misses their 2012 launch by months and then charges double what they originally stated (after lenses and other accessories)?
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post #2586 of 10190 Old 05-21-2012, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianMundt View Post

If anyone wants a good laugh, definitely check out this thread over on the Red forums. The amount of misinformation is staggering, and, there are many, many more threads just like it. I really hope that a consumer in the market for a 1000 doesn't read this stuff and decide against it.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...er-20k!!/page6

Just a few nuggets I found after a brief skimming:

[*]Sony rushed the VW1000ES to the market after Red officially unveiled their projector last month. Apparently, Sony has also developed a time machine.[*]The Sony is not upgradable and has a built-in "spoilage" date.[*]The 1000 is limited to 4K/24Htz because that's just how Sony made it (of course, it doesn't have anything to do with the HDMI 1.4 spec...).[*]The Red will be significantly lighter than the Sony (which is very easy to tell by looking at it through glass...)


I'm all for Red entering the projector game and I think they have the potential for a great product on their hands, but... wow... these people are scary! It's almost like a cult. Yikes!

What do you wanna bet Red misses their 2012 launch by months and then charges double what they originally stated (after lenses and other accessories)?

I just shake my head at those guys who know nothing about projectors. They actually think this Sony is coming out next year or just got announced because of Red. Terrible. I just let them believe it. What is funnier that they believe Red is only shipping a projector with no lense. Now that would not make any sense to think.
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post #2587 of 10190 Old 05-22-2012, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianMundt View Post

If anyone wants a good laugh, definitely check out this thread over on the Red forums. The amount of misinformation is staggering, and, there are many, many more threads just like it. I really hope that a consumer in the market for a 1000 doesn't read this stuff and decide against it.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...er-20k!!/page6

Just a few nuggets I found after a brief skimming:
  • Sony rushed the VW1000ES to the market after Red officially unveiled their projector last month. Apparently, Sony has also developed a time machine.
  • The Sony is not upgradable and has a built-in "spoilage" date.
  • The 1000 is limited to 4K/24Htz because that's just how Sony made it (of course, it doesn't have anything to do with the HDMI 1.4 spec...).
  • The Red will be significantly lighter than the Sony (which is very easy to tell by looking at it through glass...)

I'm all for Red entering the projector game and I think they have the potential for a great product on their hands, but... wow... these people are scary! It's almost like a cult. Yikes!

What do you wanna bet Red misses their 2012 launch by months and then charges double what they originally stated (after lenses and other accessories)?

I would not take that bet against you, because that is what I am expecting, except the months could turn into a year.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales
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post #2588 of 10190 Old 05-22-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

That's useful info, Mike. Do you know if Sony's 'Reality Creation' has anything to do with DVD => 1080p upconversion, or only the 1080p=>4K?

Just know that when Lumagen is used to upconvert anything below 1080P, it looks better on the VW1000 compared to letting the VW1000 do all the work. Based on this, I suspect that the 4K Lumagen, when available will do a better job when it does all of the scaling.

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post #2589 of 10190 Old 05-22-2012, 07:35 AM
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We also had the discussion in this thread a while back about the " ringing" that is still apparent on the 1000 scaling engine, especially on straight white lines, words, etc. If the Lumagen no ring scaling eliminates that, i think we are all in for an additional treat in the future with a 4k Lumagen VW 1000 combo.
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post #2590 of 10190 Old 05-22-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Just know that when Lumagen is used to upconvert anything below 1080P, it looks better on the VW1000 compared to letting the VW1000 do all the work. Based on this, I suspect that the 4K Lumagen, when available will do a better job when it does all of the scaling.

Sounds good. Hope Lumagen offers a trade-up deal for the RadMini I have!
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post #2591 of 10190 Old 05-22-2012, 10:49 PM
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Anybody watched The Grey with their 1000ES? I did so last night and the grain/noise in that movie was beyond belief It was so bad, I've thought someone has boosted my sharpness to 100 and messed up my pj in other ways. I didn't try to get rid of these horrible grain playing with the adjustments as it was very late, but I'm sure it wouldn't help. I can't understand how they release a movie in such shape. If it was the idea of the director, well I guess he should direct no more
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post #2592 of 10190 Old 05-22-2012, 11:20 PM
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Anybody watched The Grey with their 1000ES? I did so last night and the grain/noise in that movie was beyond belief It was so bad, I've thought someone has boosted my sharpness to 100 and messed up my pj in other ways. I didn't try to get rid of these horrible grain playing with the adjustments as it was very late, but I'm sure it wouldn't help. I can't understand how they release a movie in such shape. If it was the idea of the director, well I guess he should direct no more

I haven't watched it on a 1000ES, but even on my Kuro, the grain was very noticeable, especially in low light scenes. I read an interview that they had to use only certain kinds of cameras because the environment was so brutal. I'm sure they just didn't have the flexibility when shooting on location.

Fantastic movie though, huh?
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post #2593 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianMundt View Post

I haven't watched it on a 1000ES, but even on my Kuro, the grain was very noticeable, especially in low light scenes. I read an interview that they had to use only certain kinds of cameras because the environment was so brutal. I'm sure they just didn't have the flexibility when shooting on location.

Fantastic movie though, huh?

Yeah, the movie was good, but I'm all against demonizing certain wildlife species. I know wolves can and do kill, but not in such a way.
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post #2594 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 03:39 PM
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We watched it. Not bad. Typical nice Liam Neeson flick. Just make sure you watch the credits all the way thru. Or FF!

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post #2595 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 04:00 PM
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We watched it. Not bad. Typical nice Liam Neeson flick. Just make sure you watch the credits all the way thru. Or FF!

Yike.. I stop at the credits. I thought this only happen on Avenger Series movies... hope this does not become a trend that we need to FF through credits to see more contents.
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post #2596 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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Yeah, the movie was good, but I'm all against demonizing certain wildlife species. I know wolves can and do kill, but in such a way.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's the "Jaws Effect." Peter Benchley spent the last decade of his life trying to reverse the damage his book (and Spielberg's movie) did.

I liked The Grey because it was a little more introspective than other "survival" movies. Aside from the grain, I thought it was a beautifully shot movie as well.

It's hard to believe Liam Neeson is almost 60 years old!
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post #2597 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 05:49 PM
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......It's hard to believe Liam Neeson is almost 60 years old!


Yup, and he's a great guy, very approachable. Had the opportunity to spend some time with him when he was filming the battleship movie in Hawaii. Also had the opportunity to be in the movie and passed that up. I ended any interest in being on that side of camera after my "part" in The Karate Kid II.


Jim
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post #2598 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 05:56 PM
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Yike.. I stop at the credits. I thought this only happen on Avenger Series movies... hope this does not become a trend that we need to FF through credits to see more contents.

True stat. 44% of movies these days have something either in the middle of or at the end of the credits.

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post #2599 of 10190 Old 05-23-2012, 05:58 PM
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Yup, and he's a great guy, very approachable. Had the opportunity to spend some time with him when he was filming the battleship movie in Hawaii. Also had the opportunity to be in the movie and passed that up. I ended any interest in being on that side of camera after my "part" in The Karate Kid II.


Jim

I love the Karate Kid! Part 2 wasn't half bad. Would have been much better if Elisabeth Shue had been it.

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Yep, Congrats on pulling the trigger. But get ready--this is one BIG MOTHER!

One big mother? I know of a customer who fit it into a cloth grocery bag and took it across the country in the overhead baggage rack on a plane.
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post #2601 of 10190 Old 05-24-2012, 01:09 PM
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One big mother? I know of a customer who fit it into a cloth grocery bag and took it accross country in the overhead baggage rack on a plane.

Must have been a real cheapskate of a customer.
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post #2602 of 10190 Old 05-24-2012, 01:20 PM
 
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I guess there is no actual 4k sources to use a 4k VP with. A 1080p upconversion with a VP, then letting the Sony do the rest should be all you need for a while it seems like. The only 4k source it will be is 4k blu rays, which a VP should not be needed.

I think it is fallacious to assume that the Sony upscaler of say 1080p to 3940 x 2160 or the tougher to upscale to 4096 x 2160 is the cat's meow. Right now its the only meow and it is a good meow. However, there is no other 4K upscaler to compare it to. There are many many better scalers to get to 1080p than are found in the Sony projectors and panels. Sony has improved its built in 1080p scalers over the years but still hasn't reached the pinacle reached by the Lumagen and the Terranex. The scaler in the 1000ES and the lesser scaler in the output 3840 x 2160 scaler in Sony's latest Bluray player are clearly first generation and better will come. I fully expect Lumagen's 4K scaler to significantly improve on the 1000ES built in scaler.
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post #2603 of 10190 Old 05-24-2012, 03:48 PM
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And there off! It's like a race. Blu ray 4K versus a 4K scaler. Which will come first?

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And there off! It's like a race. Blu ray 4K versus a 4K scaler. Which will come first?

I think everyone agrees that the highest quality pic will be to send a 4K source (e.g., BluRay 4K, when it arrives) to the 1000ES. But until then--and presumably much longer with HDTV--one will be sending 1080p (from BD's) or 1080i (or 720p) for HDTV to the 1000ES for unconversion to 4K. Mark H makes the very believable argument that a Lumagen would probably do a better job of this upconversion to 4K (when such an enhanced Radiance becomes available) than the 1000ES internal upconverter (Reality Creation).
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post #2605 of 10190 Old 05-24-2012, 05:12 PM
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so if you shut rc off whats doing the upconversion to 4k?
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The scaler in the Sony 1000ES is doing the upconversion. It upconverts to 3840 x 2160 if the aspect is set to normal and to 4096 x 2160 if set to 2.35 zoom or whatever.. The scaler will be bypassed if you feed the projector 3840 x 2160 or 4096 x 2160. I view RC as a fine tuning of the degree of pixel resolution, the sharper or more resolved it is tuned the more noise filtering must be employed, thus the two controls operating the RC.
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post #2607 of 10190 Old 05-25-2012, 09:29 AM
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I'm going to post this again since I got no response. I think this is a big deal since you don't really need/want an A-lens with this PJ and Sony is pushing it as a big screen PJ. What is also interesting is the effect seems to be greatly magnified with 2.35/2.37 content vs 16:9:

Is anybody else using the 1000ES with a very large screen and significant vertical shift (I'm also at almost minimum throw if that matters)? After looking at other Sony PJ threads, I've found reference on older models to my core geometry issue, which is slight trapezoid on the left and right sides (increases as you get closer to the bottom) and horizontal bowing in the bottom middle. I've had two projectors act the same way. I think maybe that is just the way the light path works with a lot of vertical shift (I'm not anywhere near the limits though, I'm less than 2 feet above the top of the screen).

I know it is not the screen because we ran a string test near the bottom of the screen with a perfectly level tight screen and could verify the bowing image with the test patterns built into the projector.

I believe now that my geometry issue at the top of the screen may be an issue with the screen boundary not being perfectly straight/level. That was throwing me off during initial testing with my original projector.

I think some of this may actually be able to be corrected by intentionally shimming the screen out of plane, but it may not be worth it. Not sure how big of a deal it is going to be long term since I don't have my HTPC hooked up yet and I haven't used gaming systems that much yet.

Matt
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post #2608 of 10190 Old 05-25-2012, 10:07 AM
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I'm going to post this again since I got no response. I think this is a big deal since you don't really need/want an A-lens with this PJ and Sony is pushing it as a big screen PJ. What is also interesting is the effect seems to be greatly magnified with 2.35/2.37 content vs 16:9:

Is anybody else using the 1000ES with a very large screen and significant vertical shift (I'm also at almost minimum throw if that matters)? After looking at other Sony PJ threads, I've found reference on older models to my core geometry issue, which is slight trapezoid on the left and right sides (increases as you get closer to the bottom) and horizontal bowing in the bottom middle. I've had two projectors act the same way. I think maybe that is just the way the light path works with a lot of vertical shift (I'm not anywhere near the limits though, I'm less than 2 feet above the top of the screen).

I know it is not the screen because we ran a string test near the bottom of the screen with a perfectly level tight screen and could verify the bowing image with the test patterns built into the projector.

I believe now that my geometry issue at the top of the screen may be an issue with the screen boundary not being perfectly straight/level. That was throwing me off during initial testing with my original projector.

I think some of this may actually be able to be corrected by intentionally shimming the screen out of plane, but it may not be worth it. Not sure how big of a deal it is going to be long term since I don't have my HTPC hooked up yet and I haven't used gaming systems that much yet.

Pulling a string along the bottom of the screen, confirming no bowing in the frame will show that the frame is not causing pincusioning, but does not have anything to do with the trapezoidal shape. Since you have the same exact issues with two different projectors, I think the problem has to do with the projector/screen alignment, the screen and or screen mounting. Short throw and maximum lens shift is a recipe for not providing the best that the projector can do.

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post #2609 of 10190 Old 05-25-2012, 02:12 PM
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You might dial out the lens shift, ignoring whether the image remains on the screen or not, and then see what happens to the distortion when the light is using the 'heart' of the lens. If it goes away or is significantly diminished then...

All lenses distort in one way or another and and they are all compromises.

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post #2610 of 10190 Old 05-25-2012, 09:12 PM
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I just had my unit calibrated and in my set up 140" 16.9 1.0 gain SMX AT screen with 170 hours on the bulb the calibrated image (2D) was 22 ft/lamberts . I have some screens including the settings in my thread for those interested. I plan on taking a few more light measurements as the bulb ages to see how it does on the drop off every 100 hours or so. Love the oppo 93 by the way Mike thanks (and good stuff with the shipping a day and half earlier then expected )
cheers
Calvin
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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