release date for Epson Home Cinema 61000 Projector - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 318 Old 12-11-2011, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Have you done any measurements to determine that, or are you going by things like what you"ve read?

Thanks,
Darin

My statement is based on things that I've read. I have done no measurements at all; however, I have made observations. For example, the LED light on my BD player caused such a reflection on my screen that I was able to make shadows when I waved my arms. The same was true with the small LEDs on my pop machine in the back of the room. Those on my screen in an otherwise totally dark room had a dark grey reflection rather than black. When I covered the LEDs, the room was totally black, including the screen. Therefore, I believe what I read that even small amounts of light on the screen can ruin what would otherwise been a good high-contrasty image.

Don't ask me to produce my references about light on the screen and contrast ratio. It would take a while to find them again.
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post #92 of 318 Old 12-11-2011, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Therefore, I believe what I read that even small amounts of light on the screen can ruin what would otherwise been a good high-contrasty image.

Thanks Ric. I agree that it definitely can. For me it is a difference between can and will though. If lights are pointed directly at the screen they can cause a lot of degradation, but there are many situations where LED lights do not have a direct path to the screen and the degradation can be very small.

I believe that a few things in articles out there are very misleading about how little light it takes and may have started with a guy in Australia who really never understood what he was talking about. For instance, how much the light from one candle will degrade things. I think somebody may have gotten confused about how much light there is from a standard candle and figured it would be 1 lux in a room when it is 1 lux 1 meter from the candle (and drops off from there).

I did experiments with a candle on top of a projector versus having a candle behind a chair in an off-white room along with a full 14" LCD worth of light when on a Windows desktop and pointed toward a side wall in a dark walled room and the amount of degradation off the screen can be more or less than people would predict based on many factors, like where the light is coming from and what paths it has to the screen.

A powerstrip with LEDs on it but placed behind a couch can be a pretty much non-factor in a light colored room with about 10k:1 on/off CR. I still generally cover my LEDs with neutral density material to be sure, but then there is some light, but way less than would be much of a factor even with 100k:1 on/off based on some testing I did where I simulated 100k:1 on/off CR using lower on/off CR projectors (because higher wasn't available) and neutral density filters.

I think it is also important for people to understand that a room can support super high on/off CRs (hundreds of thousands to 1+) even if it doesn't have dark walls.

I am hopeful that Epson can combine native on/off CR like the JVCs with a good dynamic iris and be able to push their multiplier beyond that 3x-4x that is generally the limit without causing more harm than good (other than the mostly useless trick of dimming down over close to 20 seconds on a black screen that Panasonic does basically to be able to claim a higher spec).

Of course, I've been waiting for a while for Epson to release their projector so we can see how they do with their relatively high native on/off CR combined with their iris.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #93 of 318 Old 12-12-2011, 07:57 AM
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But all of this is- academic (to quote Tyrell from Blade Runner ).

A CR of a million to one or a gazillion to one won't matter if the damn thing never comes out.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #94 of 318 Old 12-12-2011, 08:16 PM
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Well at least now we know for sure that there are some dealers who think it might be coming out soon
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post #95 of 318 Old 12-13-2011, 04:50 PM
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The shop listed below has the EH-R4000 (61000 equivalent) in stock for $5,068.47

http://www.bargain-universe.com/prod...n-EH%252dR4000

This place is listing it at 3100 English pounds - which is about $4800 U.S. dollars.

http://www.friday-ad.co.uk/mancheste...isit-YI145HCA9

If the 61000 hits the U.S., I would predict the price will be between $4750 and $5000. I had hoped for something below $4500. Still, it is significantly lower than the price listed for it last year at $7000.

With the EH-R4000 starting to show up on European markets, I hope the 61000 version is not far behind; however, right now there is absolutely nothing recent showing up on searches for the 61000. Still MIA.
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post #96 of 318 Old 12-13-2011, 07:44 PM
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Yeah I was hoping it would be closer to 4k considering it is only 2D in a up and coming 3D market. Maybe if their initial marketing over seas doesn't prove too good maybe they'll drop the price over here.
Maybe the 31000 will had a more attractive price, question is how does it compare to the 61000. From what I have read it pretty much has everything the 61000 has, in the manual it spells it out. It has the important option like the CMS.
I can't imagine the decrease from 1mil:1 to 500k:1 is going to make a huge difference but you never know until someone compares them.

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post #97 of 318 Old 12-13-2011, 08:25 PM
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Well the 31000 will still have more than twice the native contrast as the 8700ub, which ought to be more than enough for most people. Not for me though, as I've had to live without a projector for the past 6 months, I'll be needing a monster like the 61000 if I'm going to make up for the injustice of watching all my HD movies and shows on my 17.4" laptop screen for half a year.
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post #98 of 318 Old 12-13-2011, 09:09 PM
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If the 31000 exists, then I'm sure it will be at least $1200 cheaper - probably something like $3499. The question then is whether the 61000 is worth $1200 more. The 61000 supposedly has better calibration software and a killer iris - which makes the difference in contrast ratio. It also has an extra lamp, a mount, projector cover, black case, and a third year on the warranty. That warranty addition is very attractive since this technology is new and unproven. For me, I think the 61000 is probably worth the price. But, darn it, I would still like it below $4500. We'll just have to wait and see when (if) it's released any time soon.
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post #99 of 318 Old 12-13-2011, 09:17 PM
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http://www.bargain-universe.com/prod...n-EH%252dR2000

Looks like the 31000 is about $2K cheaper than their 61000...I'm pretty sure there's also a difference in native contrast between the two
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post #100 of 318 Old 12-13-2011, 09:44 PM
 
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I finished my review of the Epson 5010 and I am really impressed with the machine. Tom Huffman has finished his calibration and has taken all the relevant mesasurements.

Withbalittle corner convergence touch up, really simple to accomplish, the convergence was spot on. The CMS works flawlessly and easily. The thing is a light canon and I think Tom measured ANSI CR of over 300. I didn't get his on/off mesurements but they will be in his review.

I kinda thought Darin would jump in on the comment about one led destroying on off. I would agree with Darin's comments. I have a dark pit theater. And I have rope lighting on the stasirs several feet on each side of the screen and the stage has perimeter rope lighting. The stage lights do significantly destroy the black ref value. But overall on of is not really impacted. Certainly the dimly light exit signes and stair tread lighting have virtually no impact to my reyes though I can shut everything off. ANSI is another issue and the room must be completely dark and black or one loses it. But on/off has nothing to do with room lighting and one can benefit from higher on off regardless of room conditions.

That said, it is absolutely impossible to measure on off accurately at levels lIke the 5000,000 to one or million to one neing talked about re the 61,000 or 31,000. Its just a marketing number, nothingmore or less. This is not to say the on offs won't be high. But not a zillion to one or anything like that. Several companies have specified a million to one for various displays. It just can't be measured accurately. Its just an approximation and probably an aggressive approximation. But it markets so nicely.

I saw the 61,000 demo at Cedia several times and I know Greg Lowen, the noted ISF calibrator who Epson hired to do the set up and conduct the demonstrations real well. We havetalked several times since Cedia. He really likes the machine. I thought it presented well but it certainly didn't blow me a way or lead me to conclude it was bar far better than the competition. Such a conclusion would require side by side comparisons and one can not validly reach such a conclusiob by seeing various Cedia demonstrations with period of times and space apart with dufferent souces, source material, yada yada.

The machine is going to be another goos reflective LCD machine. It may be the best reflective LCD machine for 2D, the fact that it doesn't do 3D means it can be designed for 2D and not incorporate compromises necessary for really bright 3D. Just my thoughts.
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post #101 of 318 Old 12-14-2011, 06:21 AM
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From what I've read in various places the 61000 and the 31000 both come with 3 years, ceiling mount, spare lamp, the same CMS. Not sure if they both have the same iris functionality.
But I like I said before the difference is in the polarization panel( I thnk that was it), I tryed to find that writeup that mentioned the differences but still haven't located it, it was from an overseas mag. if memeory serves correct.

2k cheaper would be nice, puts it in the same ballpark as the RS45.

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post #102 of 318 Old 12-14-2011, 06:50 AM
 
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The non pro line usually (as in normally based on past history) does not come with mounts and three year warranties, just two year warranties. Epson does run free 2nd bulb promotions from time to time but not near product introduction time.

It would be crazy to have two different CMSs. Let's make one rtight and then pleasse screw it up a bit for the cheaper model. Either a CMS allows what needs to be done to be done or it doesn't though I suppose one could say introduce on purpose a few second blanking dely everytime you click one of the controls to err annoy the calibrator and substantially increase calibration time.
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post #103 of 318 Old 12-14-2011, 07:00 AM
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The info I recieved was from the dealer I've been talking to, so I can only assume that he got his info from his Epson rep in Canada. Again we'll have to wait and see what materializes in the near furture ( I hope).

Walter
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post #104 of 318 Old 12-15-2011, 06:38 PM
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Here's a short review on the EH-R4000 (61000 equivalent) posted a couple months ago:

http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/product/epson-eh-r4000/
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post #105 of 318 Old 12-15-2011, 07:27 PM
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Nice short review, wish he would have said more about it. But one he did say was the best black ever. Well, can't wait to here more reviews from the first lucky people to get one of these or the 31000 or which ever models will be available in NA.

Walter
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post #106 of 318 Old 12-15-2011, 07:56 PM
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Here she be, on the Epson UK website:

http://www.epson.co.uk/Home-and-Home...Epson-EH-R4000
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post #107 of 318 Old 12-15-2011, 08:35 PM
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All signs seem to point to an imminent release of the EH-R4000. Once it shows up on the Epson website, it's usually released within a month or so. The 61000, however, is still MIA. It looks like it's going to lag behind the release of the EH-R4000. By how much? Who knows.

What I also find interesting is how just about everyone dismisses this projector. I mention the 61000 in the same sentence as "Sony" or "JVC" and I usually get laughed at or mocked. Very few people take this projector seriously at all. They think it's a joke. It's like the Hyundai in a world of BMW and Audi enthusiasts. I have yet to personally talk to anyone who thinks the 61000 is a serious projector at all. I'm not exactly sure why that is because I have read several reports from folks at Cedia and they were extremely impressed with it. But talk to theater people around town and they all say projectors like the JVC RS45 is much better. Kind-of odd to me.

I'm not all that upset about the negativity toward the 61000. All that means is that the demand will be low and the probably of finding a unit will be better for me.
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post #108 of 318 Old 12-15-2011, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

All signs seem to point to an imminent release of the EH-R4000. Once it shows up on the Epson website, it's usually released within a month or so. The 61000, however, is still MIA. It looks like it's going to lag behind the release of the EH-R4000. By how much? Who knows.

What I also find interesting is how just about everyone dismisses this projector. I mention the 61000 in the same sentence as "Sony" or "JVC" and I usually get laughed at or mocked. Very few people take this projector seriously at all. They think it's a joke. It's like the Hyundai in a world of BMW and Audi enthusiasts. I have yet to personally talk to anyone who thinks the 61000 is a serious projector at all. I'm not exactly sure why that is because I have read several reports from folks at Cedia and they were extremely impressed with it. But talk to theater people around town and they all say projectors like the JVC RS45 is much better. Kind-of odd to me.

I'm not all that upset about the negativity toward the 61000. All that means is that the demand will be low and the probably of finding a unit will be better for me.

Note that the above website is in the UK.
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post #109 of 318 Old 12-15-2011, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Note that the above website is in the UK.

Yeah, the EH-R4000 is the international version of the 61000. I was thinking both versions would be released simultaneously, but it appears as if the EH-R4000 is being released first with the 61000 lagging behind. It's a good sign, however, that the EH-R4000 IS showing up on Epson UK because that gives hope that the 61000 will also be forthcoming.
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post #110 of 318 Old 12-16-2011, 01:49 AM
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That doesn't mean anything. The EH-R4000 has been on the Epson UK website for over a year now.

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post #111 of 318 Old 12-16-2011, 03:41 AM
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Hey guys, my wife has a friend who resides in Japan and I asked her to translate the release date on epson Japan's website and she said that it says that the release date is January 2012 . I spoke to the epson dealer yesterday and their rep said it will be released in January as well. Let's hope so!
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post #112 of 318 Old 12-16-2011, 04:05 AM
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I was all set to purchase the Epson 9000w (US 6010) but I think I might just hold off for a bit to see where this goes, I've heard and read a few things around here and there that suggest this thing is quite impressive. Quotes like this "The Epson EH-R4000 is a game changer" have me all excited. Bring it on.
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post #113 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 10:22 AM
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Here's another sighting of the EH-R4000 (international version of the 61000).

Item is available for pre-order with anticipated delivery in January. It appears from these sites that the lower-end EH-R2000 (31000 equivalent) is about a third less than the EH-R4000. So in North America if the 61000 sells for around $4800, the 31000 should then sell for around $3200 - at least if pricing is consistent with the international market.

http://translate.google.com/translat...prmd%3Dimvnsfd

Still, there is a lot of uncertainty until these products ACTUALLY show up.
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post #114 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Here's another sighting of the EH-R4000 (international version of the 61000).

Item is available for pre-order with anticipated delivery in January. It appears from these sites that the lower-end EH-R2000 (31000 equivalent) is about a third less than the EH-R4000. So in North America if the 61000 sells for around $4800, the 31000 should then sell for around $3200 - at least if pricing is consistent with the international market.

http://translate.google.com/translat...prmd%3Dimvnsfd

Still, there is a lot of uncertainty until these products ACTUALLY show up.

I hope you are correct in your pricing, this site would convert it to $6700 USD. Of coarse this is full MSRP.
http://www.projectors.co.uk/products.asp?partno=EHR4000
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post #115 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 02:32 PM
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What is the speed of the panel, 120 or 240?
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post #116 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 04:16 PM
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I'm starting to think if and when this projector shows up that it's price is not going to be on cheap side. I think Epson should consider the current projector market and not over price this model.... I mean JVC has become more accessible to people with their latest entry level.
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post #117 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eazyriderr View Post

I'm starting to think if and when this projector shows up that it's price is not going to be on cheap side. I think Epson should consider the current projector market and not over price this model.... I mean JVC has become more accessible to people with their latest entry level.

Last year's 61000 which never came to market had an MSRP of $6999. Epson reviewed their pricing and their reps at Cedia stated this year's 61000 will be under $5000. I think that's a certainty. I'm hoping for under $4500. Maybe the 31000 will hover around $3000. We'll see in another month or so.
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post #118 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Last year's 61000 which never came to market had an MSRP of $6999. Epson reviewed their pricing and their reps at Cedia stated this year's 61000 will be under $5000. I think that's a certainty. I'm hoping for under $4500. Maybe the 31000 will hover around $3000. We'll see in another month or so.


$4500 seems reasonable, my fingers are crossed and if the 61000 is to rich for my taste the 31000 is still potentially a fantastic projector.
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post #119 of 318 Old 12-17-2011, 07:06 PM
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I come to the conclusion that if you want to do 2D right thern something like the Epson 6100 is the way to go. If you want to do 3D right then find a good 3D DLP. Maybe this year I'll be buying two projectors!
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post #120 of 318 Old 12-21-2011, 07:13 AM
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My theater guy was just here (picking up an Integra 80.2 for warranty work). He said he spoke to Epson yesterday. They reconfirmed the Jan release but said it would be a 'limited' distribution and as a smaller reseller he probably won't be getting one in Jan. Epson continued to say that even if he was able to order one in Feb, they would not recommend selling any until March at the earliest.

Resetting expectation for MARCH?!?! I'm not waiting. I'll be ordering a different projector this week.
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