Benefits of LED projectors?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 160 Old 10-10-2011, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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What are the benefits of LED over current tech?
I thought the black level was one, however, others have posted that this is only true when they are completely off. Does this mean they have bad grey scale for the lower IRE?
With the quickness of LED, it must have great motion.
Color?
Light output is supposed to be vastly improving.
anything to add?
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post #2 of 160 Old 10-10-2011, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Picture will not dim like bulb units.
Only needing one calibration
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post #3 of 160 Old 10-10-2011, 10:33 PM
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"I thought the black level was one"

not really

"Does this mean they have bad grey scale for the lower IRE?"

no

"With the quickness of LED, it must have great motion."

that depends on panel speed, not light source

"Light output is supposed to be vastly improving."

no, in fact that's one of the areas that need improvement for those with larger screens

Noah
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post #4 of 160 Old 10-10-2011, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gleave View Post

Picture will not dim like bulb units.
Only needing one calibration

The picture still will dim down over time as those whom have measured LED projectors over the course of the first few hundred hours know. So I guess you will still need to recalibrate down the track.
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post #5 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 11:15 AM
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The big advantage , other than lifetime including less mechanical moving parts is that led projectors can act as extremely quick adjustable irises and this should increase contrast in dark scenes and limit dithering artifacts. Since it is color selective you have 3 irises one for each color.

Phatlight is the only company that supplies leds for theater projectors and they have not improved the light output on at least two years.
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post #6 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 04:48 PM
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Spizz,

That depends on the PJ. Runco Q series actually has Tri-stimulus color meter built into the PJ. This means it means the curent levels against the reference set by calibration and adjust every single time you turn on the pj to get the correct calibrated colors.... granted the tri-stim is not the best meter, but the fact that it corrects for the aging LEDs is great.

Now most other LED pj do not do this, so yes you will have to check every so often to ensure they are still calibrated.

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post #7 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

The picture still will dim down over time as those whom have measured LED projectors over the course of the first few hundred hours know. So I guess you will still need to recalibrate down the track.

My results say this generalization is not true. Here is the history of my Sim2 MICO 50 for the first 600 hours.

When new with 40 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 490 Lumens
Overlap mode 571 Lumens

With 350 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 492 Lumens
Overlap mode 560 Lumens

Now with 600 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 501 Lumens
Overlap mode 559 Lumens

All of these measurements are after a fresh calibration. The latest one, which I did this morning, was a complete CMS as well as grayscale.

In any event, I see no degradation over the first 600 hours!
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post #8 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

My results say this generalization is not true. Here is the history of my Sim2 MICO 50 for the first 600 hours.

When new with 40 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 490 Lumens
Overlap mode 571 Lumens

With 350 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 492 Lumens
Overlap mode 560 Lumens

Now with 600 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 501 Lumens
Overlap mode 559 Lumens

All of these measurements are after a fresh calibration. The latest one, which I did this morning, was a complete CMS as well as grayscale.

In any event, I see no degradation over the first 600 hours!

It's quite amazing that the lumens are actually going up.
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post #9 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

It's quite amazing that the lumens are actually going up.

Well within the limits of repeatability for my meter, a Konica Minolta CL200. I could measure it again tomorrow and get a slightly different result. The point is, there is no significant change in output for the first 600 hours.
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post #10 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

My results say this generalization is not true. Here is the history of my Sim2 MICO 50 for the first 600 hours.

When new with 40 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 490 Lumens
Overlap mode 571 Lumens

With 350 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 492 Lumens
Overlap mode 560 Lumens

Now with 600 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 501 Lumens
Overlap mode 559 Lumens

All of these measurements are after a fresh calibration. The latest one, which I did this morning, was a complete CMS as well as grayscale.

In any event, I see no degradation over the first 600 hours!

I think that is fantastic
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post #11 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 10:42 PM
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I hope to God that every manufacturer figures out how to implement LED or laser or some decent light source in the VERY near future. I cannot wait.

This high-pressure-bulb crap has to die in a fire.
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post #12 of 160 Old 10-16-2011, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

My results say this generalization is not true. Here is the history of my Sim2 MICO 50 for the first 600 hours.

When new with 40 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 490 Lumens
Overlap mode 571 Lumens

With 350 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 492 Lumens
Overlap mode 560 Lumens

Now with 600 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 501 Lumens
Overlap mode 559 Lumens

All of these measurements are after a fresh calibration. The latest one, which I did this morning, was a complete CMS as well as grayscale.

In any event, I see no degradation over the first 600 hours!

Did the calibrations diverge much between each cal session?

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post #13 of 160 Old 10-17-2011, 12:02 AM
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Off the top of my head there are 2 other advantages that have not yet been mentioned in this thread.

1. Colour wheel can be eliminated and leds pulsed giving the equivalent of a 20* or more colour wheel, so rainbow should be eliminated for almost every viewer. Of course that assumes that the unit actually replaces the colour wheel, which all but the cheapo ones do.
2. Knowing that you can turn it off and on again right away without waiting for the lamp to cool down or you can run it for only a few minutes at a time without worrying how that will affect lamp life.

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post #14 of 160 Old 10-17-2011, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

My results say this generalization is not true. Here is the history of my Sim2 MICO 50 for the first 600 hours.

When new with 40 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 490 Lumens
Overlap mode 571 Lumens

With 350 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 492 Lumens
Overlap mode 560 Lumens

Now with 600 hours on the unit:
Normal mode 501 Lumens
Overlap mode 559 Lumens

All of these measurements are after a fresh calibration. The latest one, which I did this morning, was a complete CMS as well as grayscale.

In any event, I see no degradation over the first 600 hours!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, Citation4444, you took another concern off my mind after reading the other poster state unequivocally that there is loss of brightness within less than 200 hours on LED projectors, as i just purchase a Runco Q750D LED projector.
Your find seem to agree with Home Theather Magazine's report on the Runco Q750i LED model which suffered NO measureable loss of brightness during three months of use and testing, and i would imagine that they must have tested its lumen output several times during those three months since that is one of its main features.
BTW, another benefit of using LEDs as source illumination for pjs is the fact that the owner can look at the pj as simply a replacement for a standard TV set by not ever having to worry about letting it run for hours at a time, without any concerns over bulb life, bulb replacement cost, bulbs exploding, cool-off period, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcos
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post #15 of 160 Old 10-17-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

Did the calibrations diverge much between each cal session?

My subjective answer is no, the MICO 50 did not change much between calibrations, but I can't quantify it due to my calibration technique. I prefer to start fresh each time by resetting my Radiance back to default before starting. I also changed how I calibrated the projector itself before using the Radiance. At 300 hours I calibrated it using its automatic calibration routine with the Konica Minolta CL200 facing the projector from about 6 ft. This resulted in a great calibration, but with R and G slightly off their x,y targets and R a little too high in luminance. I posted the chart a few months ago. The calibration I did yesterday was completely different in that I took the measurements off the screen using my i1Pro and CalMAN C6. I found these two meters give almost identical results at high brightness and the C6 much better at low light levels as you would expect. I also took the time to tweak the service menu CMS to better position the primaries. This was very cumbersome as its CMS is not exactly user friendly. One benefit from measuring from the screen is I can quantify that I am getting around 25 fL at the optimum seating position. I use a HP 2.8 gain screen and it is very beneficial with this projector, giving me roughly the same brightness that I was used to with my C3X 720 projector and 1.3 gain screen.

Subjectively, I find no change in picture quality with the new calibration. I want to think the reds are more red, but that's not justified because the change was so small. A little long-winded, but if anybody is interested I can post the last two calibration reports, but it'll have to wait until later in the day.
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post #16 of 160 Old 10-17-2011, 09:38 AM
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This is not that surprising because 600 hours out of 30,000 is not any meaningful part of it's life. An LED may dim over it's life, but that time may just be longer. In percentage terms, 600 hours of a 30,000 hour LED is like 60 hours on a regular bulb 3,000 hour unit. Does that make sense or am I missing something?
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post #17 of 160 Old 11-01-2011, 01:28 PM
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citation 4444: rovingtravler has helped me a lot about a problem I had with my Mico 50 Sim 2 projector. Since you owe an unit, would you be so king as to put some light on what has caused this issue? Thank you in avance. My unit is running for a little up to 400 hours, when it shutted off. The lights at the rear were blinking, not according to the user manual. The fact is that when I turn on the projector it works for a short time and turns off. The red light keeps blinking. My space behind is more than adequate for cooling. Since I live in Brazil, there's not a Sim 2 servicing unit. I'll have to send the projector back to Miami. No hot air is coming from the exhaust vent and yet I can hear some noise internally. rovingtravler thinks I have a problem with the fans or the temperature sensors, i don't know how many the pj has. I' mworried about, talked to my dealer , who came in my house, and an specialized projector tecnician will have a look at it.
Do you have a possible dignosis on the issue. Sorry for posting here, but it's the only recent thread. Cheers. Waltie
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post #18 of 160 Old 11-01-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkumar View Post

This is not that surprising because 600 hours out of 30,000 is not any meaningful part of it's life. An LED may dim over it's life, but that time may just be longer. In percentage terms, 600 hours of a 30,000 hour LED is like 60 hours on a regular bulb 3,000 hour unit. Does that make sense or am I missing something?

It makes sense. But a UHP losses most of it's brightness in the first few hundred hours (from a linearity drop off standpoint). So, take into account that LED's may dim more 'linearly', and you have even more to be exited about with LED's robustness. That probably didn't make sense .
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post #19 of 160 Old 11-01-2011, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

Off the top of my head there are 2 other advantages that have not yet been mentioned in this thread.

1. Colour wheel can be eliminated and leds pulsed giving the equivalent of a 20* or more colour wheel, so rainbow should be eliminated for almost every viewer.

That is the ideal. Unfortunately, elimination of RBE is completely dependent on the frequency/speed at which the LEDs are pulsed. So far, at least with the <$1000 mini LED projectors, rainbows are still an issue. Until there is some standard, might as well just flip a coin.
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post #20 of 160 Old 11-01-2011, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Phatlight is the only company that supplies leds for theater projectors and they have not improved the light output on at least two years.

Not a biggie.... but for the record the manufacturer is "Luminus" and the product is called "PhlatLight".

Luminus PhlatLight
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post #21 of 160 Old 11-02-2011, 01:00 AM
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Quote:


That is the ideal. Unfortunately, elimination of RBE is completely dependent on the frequency/speed at which the LEDs are pulsed. So far, at least with the <$1000 mini LED projectors, rainbows are still an issue. Until there is some standard, might as well just flip a coin.

Those are not home theatre projectors. I haven't checked in > 1yr. but consensus back then seemed to be that most of those still used a colour wheel. But that may have changed in the last year. All the HT LED projectors I have heard about all cost well over $3k, which is the forum section we are in and I believe all pulse the LEDs 20+ times per frame @ 60Hz.

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post #22 of 160 Old 11-02-2011, 08:16 AM
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I believe that RGB LED projectors also have the ability to have an expanded color gamut with the correct external processor.

-Alex-
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post #23 of 160 Old 11-02-2011, 10:37 AM
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No external processor needed. The color gamut on my Runco Q is HUGE when in native. I had some of the points are off the standard REC 709 chart. The issue is whether you want accurate color or bigger gamut, as no sources use that large a gamut. Cartoons look better in native, but films are not mastered for the larger gamut.

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post #24 of 160 Old 11-02-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bairda View Post

I believe that RGB LED projectors also have the ability to have an expanded color gamut with the correct external processor.

-Alex-

The box you're thinking of, the EEcolor box, remaps colors that look obviously wrong in the native LED gamut to be more correct while allowing colors that won't look obviously wrong to use the whole gamut.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #25 of 160 Old 11-02-2011, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltie View Post

citation 4444: rovingtravler has helped me a lot about a problem I had with my Mico 50 Sim 2 projector. Since you owe an unit, would you be so king as to put some light on what has caused this issue? Thank you in avance. My unit is running for a little up to 400 hours, when it shutted off. The lights at the rear were blinking, not according to the user manual. The fact is that when I turn on the projector it works for a short time and turns off. The red light keeps blinking. My space behind is more than adequate for cooling. Since I live in Brazil, there's not a Sim 2 servicing unit. I'll have to send the projector back to Miami. No hot air is coming from the exhaust vent and yet I can hear some noise internally. rovingtravler thinks I have a problem with the fans or the temperature sensors, i don't know how many the pj has. I' mworried about, talked to my dealer , who came in my house, and an specialized projector tecnician will have a look at it.
Do you have a possible dignosis on the issue. Sorry for posting here, but it's the only recent thread. Cheers. Waltie

Sorry for the late response, but I just noticed your post.

Your problem could be one or more of several things, all related to heat. First, there could be obstruction of any of the air intakes or the exhaust vent. When my projector is on, you can easily feel warm air exiting the ventilation holes at the right rear of the projector. You can also feel cool air being sucked in several other areas: from the left front (looking at the pj from the front). Also cool air is sucked in the left rear vent hole (looking at the pj from the rear). If you shine a bright flashlight in either of the rear ventilation holes, you won't see a fan, but it should be free of any debri or obstruction. The manual says to use a vacuum cleaner in suction mode to suck any debri from these vents.

To my knowledge, there are 2 fans in the MICO 50; one associated with the water cooling radiator to cool the LED's, and the other fan moving air to cool the electronics. Both of these fans are quiet. My guess is that rovingtravler is probably right about one of the fans not working because you can't feel any hot air exiting. Since it only takes a couple of minutes to overheat, I'd also guess it is the fan associated with the water cooling of the LED's.

If you have a technician who is careful, it is easy to remove the top panel so you can inspect the fans. I believe only two screws need to be removed. If you look at the review that cine4home did, they clearly show the fans and the directions of air flow. It also shows how easily the top panel comes off.

Another workaround might be to put the projector in high altitude mode in the user menu. This will cause all fans to run in high speed mode all the time. If this keeps your projector running, it's a pretty good bet you have a fan problem. I recommend reading the cine4home review as it will show you the internal details. Here's the link http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...2Mico_Test.htm

Good luck in getting this resolved.
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post #26 of 160 Old 11-03-2011, 10:57 AM
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citation 4444;


thanks a lot for the reply. You and rovingtravier helped me a lot. I'll post when the service is done. Fingers crossed.


Waltie
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post #27 of 160 Old 11-03-2011, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

The box you're thinking of, the EEcolor box, remaps colors that look obviously wrong in the native LED gamut to be more correct while allowing colors that won't look obviously wrong to use the whole gamut.

Correct. Most noticeable is skin color.

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post #28 of 160 Old 11-03-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

Those are not home theatre projectors. I haven't checked in > 1yr. but consensus back then seemed to be that most of those still used a colour wheel. But that may have changed in the last year. All the HT LED projectors I have heard about all cost well over $3k, which is the forum section we are in and I believe all pulse the LEDs 20+ times per frame @ 60Hz.

I dont know of any rbg led PJ that uses a color wheel the led,s them selfs are colored.

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post #29 of 160 Old 11-03-2011, 12:57 PM
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eat meat there used to be pico class LED projectors and a few display models that used the white only LED. they did have a color wheel, however, I believe most if not all have not been manufactured for a while as they do not provide much benafit over standard lamp color wheel in that size.

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post #30 of 160 Old 12-03-2011, 01:03 AM
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Citation 44444: the servicing in the Mico 50 revealed, priliminarly, since it just started, that the problem is not related to the cooler sink, neither with the leds fan. They are working properly. I don't have a final word, but it seems to me it has to do with the power supply. What the technician noticed is that the pj is shutting off very quickly. Far from being an expertise, of course, I don't know what else could it be. This technician is the only person with knowledge and skill to get the fixing. If he doesn't make it, I fear the pj will have to go back to the USA, to Sim 2 facility, what I don't want, because of the long trip, able to cause more problems. I got my Rs 25 back, in the meantime, however.
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