Official Sony VPL-VW95ES Owners Thread - Page 36 - AVS Forum
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post #1051 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dogone View Post

I'd say that's a pretty good guess.

No, ( see my last post )


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post #1052 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Jozwiak View Post

My first unit also had focus issues. I couldn't get focus to be consistent across the screen. My second unit is more consistent across the screen now. I am still unsure if it is as sharp as some are stating. I can't get the pixel structure to be tack sharp but when I step back the overall image is pretty sharp.

I did find that the focus pattern was very blurry (lines are 3-4 pixels wide) when I engaged the focus screen when the selected input had an active source. When I disabled the source the focus pattern was much more focused. The lines are 1 pixel wide.
.


Bryan

I tried that with mine too, and the test pattern behave the same way like yours, so I think it is normal behave for that test patterns (but dont know why they make it that way ) , so to adjust most precise, I set test patterns to off and then adjust with the source material.


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post #1053 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Bryan

I tried that with mine too, and the test pattern behave the same way like yours, so I think it is normal behave for that test patterns (but dont know why they make it that way ) , so to adjust most precise, I set test patterns to off and then adjust with the source material.


dj

Mine too behave in the same way.When i try to adjust focus(test pattern on),focus is a little blurry.
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post #1054 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post


This is very good to know. Looks like it might have the same issue as in RS20, which I heard mess up the saturation as well when you use its CMS.
SOWK, do you have a Lumagen VP or DUO to try calibrate and see if it is better? Lumagen should have no problems in their CMS control for different saturation level.

I do not.
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post #1055 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Ok, leave RCP off...

I tried with different saturation levels and it's almost perfect at 100% but totally messed up at 75% / 50% / 25%

With RCP off and normal color space I would say it averages about 1.3dE across all saturation levels for every color.

So better to leave alone.

Can you post your measurements for this? I am interested to know the dE and where things go wrong.

These colors can be affected by the gamma that you are using also. What gamma are you using when you measure? The fact that 100% seems okay but the others do not seem to point to this as a possible cause.

It seems that it may be very hard to get a real working CMS because hardly anyone can seem to do it.

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post #1056 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Absolutly not, the inbuild transmitter in the 95ES ( and in the "old" 90ES ) is way better and stronger then the external transmitter from the 30ES IMO.

I could never get the external transmitter from the 30 to work stabil with bouncing off the screen´s to the projector ( gain 1.3 and 2.8 ), and I did try both the "0" and the "1" in the service menu. Both with the 90 and the 95 I never have had any problem and I didnt need to go into the service menu at all.


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Have to agree. We were more apt to lose synce with the 30's which is what made us fall in love with the Monsters. We ended up hating the 103s and I sold all of them. We now have 5 pairs of Monsters (loaned one out) the two Sony PJ1s, and two BR50s with filters.

We are all set for 3D!

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post #1057 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Bryan

I tried that with mine too, and the test pattern behave the same way like yours, so I think it is normal behave for that test patterns (but dont know why they make it that way ) , so to adjust most precise, I set test patterns to off and then adjust with the source material.


dj

Same here. I use DirecTV and their guide screen. When I can see the jaggedness show up in the letters I know I am as sharp as I am going to get. I also use test patterns from my Duo to double check. Lastly, the 95's own menu GUI should be super sharp. If all of these fall into place I know I am at optimal sharpness.

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
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post #1058 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 07:57 AM
 
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You are as optimal as is practicable. Harper than the above average bear. If you measure MTF with a method similar to the one Mark Peterson uses you can really optimize the focus. However, obtaining optimumfocus is really not necessary for the range of seating distances found in HT. This statement will be politically unpopular. It is important to go to he screen and focus everything as sharp as possible. Gotta see those little grid lines sharp.

Try a little experiment. Have a friend change them randomly from sharp to slightly soft, so up close one can't see those little lines cutting up the grid lines. Sit at your normal distance and pick out the image using general content thrown by the tightly focused machine vs the slightly less than optimal focus.
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post #1059 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Would it be ok to adjust the gamma with DI off and then activate the DI after that, if you want to use it ? - will that still give the "correct" behavier from the gamma ?

Absolutely! Best practice for Sony DI projectors has always been to calibrate with DI off. Thats how they are calibrated at the factory. There will be no issues in using the DI system afterwards.

For grayscale and color adjustments, DI on or off does not make much difference. For gamma it could because if the measurement pattern causes the DI system to activate the iris closure/video level boost will result in the "wrong" luminance recorded by the measurement device. Once the calibrator adjusts the gamma curve to correct the "wrong" value you now end up with a problem.
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post #1060 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:17 AM
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My Review is up...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1018

I would still like to do some more RCP calibrations and post after.
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post #1061 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:41 AM
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Yesterday and last night I finally was able to watch the VW95 with everything dialed in. The picture is very impressive. There were a few things I saw that were truly jaw-dropping, including a commercial with super zoomed in silver and black watch set against a black background. It was like a watch and a sharpness pattern all in one. The clarity, image depth and detail was so fine that it looked 3D. It was really popping off the screen. There were other scenes like this too like when they focused in on the cheerleaders during a football game.

The blacks are very impressive. However I will saw that FROM MEMORY they are not as deep as with my RS20. This seems to be the case when there is a scene that is mostly black with a few objects in it. Even with a DI I don't think that can complete with the 30K:1 on/off I measured from my JVC. Remember that even with a DI on any given frame your CR is still limited to the native on/off of the pj. I haven't measured mine yet.

That said, I seem to have been able to largely (if not entirely) compensate for this by running a higher gamma which effectively raises the contrast of the image. For instance a 2.4 and even a 2.5 gamma.

Also the Lumagen has something very cool I started playing with called Adaptive Contrast. The Lumagen manual describes it as: "Adaptive Contrast varies the contrast based on the average level of the central 60% of the picture."

I am not sure how it works exactly, but the effect is promising. Essentially it acts like a dynamic gamma adjustment from scene to scene. Sort of like an electronic iris I suppose? I did some A/B/C testing with a gamma of 2.2 and no adaptive CR, a 2.2 gamma with adaptive CR set at the minimum, and a 2.4 gamma. Compared to the 2.4 gamma the 2.2 with adaptive CR retained more detail but did not provide quite the same pop as the 2.2 adaptive CR. The downside of the 2.2 adaptive CR is that it does crush blacks and whites some. I will post in the Lumagen forums about this (on their website) to ask for clarification and tips on how to use it.

The sharpness is very good and from memory is a little sharper than my RS20. The sharpness still left me wanting a bit more. I put the internal sharpness controls down to Min and turned to the Lumagen's controls for this. I used a value of 4 for all 6 sharpness controls/switches in the Lumagen. This did the trick without introducing any ringing. Sweet!

I tried 3D for the first time with the Sony last night. i was very impressed. I get about 24ftL (without the glasses) in high lamp mode. I haven't measured through the glasses but the picture was plenty bright and punchy. I am familiar with 3D at home because I have a 63" Samsung plasma (PN63C8000). The 3D on that is excellent, but the 3D on the Sony easily beats it because it is bigger and somehow even seems brighter? :yikes: . That said I also have the brightness up on the Monster glasses and therefore was getting a bit of ghosting in places. I will play with it but I'm sure if I turned down the brightness on the glasses that it can be fine tuned further. Also as has been said many times, the Monster/Optoma glasses are WAY BETTER than the Sony. I did some A/B and the Sony's will be used when we need a few extra pairs but that's it.

I still plan to soon compared it directly with my RS20. Only then will I be able to say definitively who beats who in where.

I have to run now, but I'll have more impressions to give later.

Also I have a few screen shots I wanted to post, but the max resolution here is 1280x720 and my pics are like 3,5000 x something (from iPhone 4S). Can someone recommend a free service online where I can post these too and link to them from here where it will retain the full resolution or at least something high? I looked at Photobucket but the resolution was still pretty low.
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post #1062 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

My Review is up...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1018

I would still like to do some more RCP calibrations and post after.

What a great review! Thank you.

I may disagree with some of your conclusions, ie, DLP being more film-like, but you are entitled to your opinion. I can say this without seeing the vw-95 because I don't think DLPs are great for film at all (even, unfortunately, DCI units in theaters).

I am still waiting for lovingdvd to weigh in on this. I feel like this will be better in certain ways than the RS20 that I now own but that maybe I should wait to see whow the JVCs measure up (and the Epson eh-r4000 if that ever shows up.

Once again, thank you for this contribution to the community and I hope that you do more tests on the CMS. I hope that it works but if color is that good out of the box, it may not matter that much unless you have some specific custom gamut in mind.

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post #1063 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post


What a great review! Thank you.

I may disagree with some of your conclusions, ie, DLP being more film-like, but you are entitled to your opinion. I can say this without seeing the vw-95 because I don't think DLPs are great for film at all (even, unfortunately, DCI units in theaters).

I am still waiting for lovingdvd to weigh in on this. I feel like this will be better in certain ways than the RS20 that I now own but that maybe I should wait to see whow the JVCs measure up (and the Epson eh-r4000 if that ever shows up.

Once again, thank you for this contribution to the community and I hope that you do more tests on the CMS. I hope that it works but if color is that good out of the box, it may not matter that much unless you have some specific custom gamut in mind.

How would you define film like...

Maybe our definitions of film like may differ.
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post #1064 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:53 AM
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How would you define film like...

Maybe our definitions of film like may differ.

Mine is natural, sharp, smooth motion, natural contrast changes within the image.

All of witch are better on high-end DLP's

Example of a review from projector central from the Samsung A900B DLP

"To the videophile with the cash who wants nothing more than the most film-like and natural image money can buy, the SP-A900B is a dream come true." - Bill Livolsi

To me LCD/LCOS/low to mid DLPs are very digital looking pictures. You know your looking at a display. It's hard to quantify, but overall image fidelity is lower.
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post #1065 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

How would you define film like...

Maybe our definitions of film like may differ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Mine is natural, sharp, smooth motion, natural contrast changes within the image.

All of witch are better on high-end DLP's



I am sure that they do differ. That's okay. I am not an evangelist about what is or is not filmlike.

To me, filmlike means dark, inky and lots of contrast in low APL scenes.

Those are areas where DLPs are not strong, IMO.

To me DLPs are good in stuff like sports.

Again, just my opinion.

I really appreciate that you took the time to do this.

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post #1066 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

The blacks are very impressive. However I will saw that FROM MEMORY they are not as deep as with my RS20. This seems to be the case when there is a scene that is mostly black with a few objects in it. Even with a DI I don't think that can complete with the 30K:1 on/off I measured from my JVC. Remember that even with a DI on any given frame your CR is still limited to the native on/off of the pj. I haven't measured mine yet.



It this bears itself out. I may be locked into the JVCs and whatever warts they have because this is the single most important thing to me.

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post #1067 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 09:04 AM
 
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I Have owned 3 RS-series JVC projectors and 3 top of the line Sony projectors (including this 95ES) and IMO, the Sony produces a better overall picture. Hands down. Say what you will about the black level of the JVC line, The Sony has DEEP blacks "and" eye poping contrast and color. The Sony looks more like an expensive LCD/LED/Plasma in a giant form. The JVC looks a bit Murky...The only time I REALLY enjoyed the JVC was watching selective science fiction flicks or movies with alot of dark scenes...(Book Of Eli) etc... I'm done with JVC... Thank you Sony for coming out with an affordable machine that puts a jaw dropping expression and then a big smile on my face...Looking foward to receiving a unit that can be focused...
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post #1068 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 09:17 AM
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I am sure that they do differ. That's okay. I am not an evangelist about what is or is not filmlike.

To me, filmlike means dark, inky and lots of contrast in low APL scenes.

Those are areas where DLPs are not strong, IMO.

To me DLPs are good in stuff like sports.

Again, just my opinion.

I really appreciate that you took the time to do this.

Not to go much further with this but film dark and inky?

I have never seen a film projector ever produce dark and inky images.
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post #1069 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Not to go much further with this but film dark and inky?

I have never seen a film projector ever produce dark and inky images.

I know. In its Platonic Ideal.

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post #1070 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 09:32 AM
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It this bears itself out. I may be locked into the JVCs and whatever warts they have because this is the single most important thing to me.

I can't wait until joerod gets his RS55 review unit.....especially if SOWK gets to play with it. Should be some very interesting comparisons....
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post #1071 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 09:38 AM
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I can't wait until joerod gets his RS55 review unit.....especially if SOWK gets to play with it. Should be some very interesting comparisons....

That's up to JoeRod... Lol. It does not even have to be JoeRod, just anyone willing to stop by Wauwatosa, WI with a JVC RS55/45 in hand.

And they will get a free calibration out of it.
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post #1072 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 10:00 AM
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That's up to JoeRod... Lol. It does not even have to be JoeRod, just anyone willing to stop by Wauwatosa, WI with a JVC RS55/45 in hand.

And they will get a free calibration out of it.

C'mon, let's make it a 55 if it's going up against the Sony. There's evidence that the e-shift has improved motion and created an overall more natural look. Should be very "filmlike".
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post #1073 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 10:16 AM
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That's up to JoeRod... Lol. It does not even have to be JoeRod, just anyone willing to stop by Wauwatosa, WI with a JVC RS55/45 in hand.

And they will get a free calibration out of it.

Im on the first wave for the RS 45. How about I get it sent to you for calibration and check and pay you to send it to me after you review it? Please. It would help me since I dont know anything about calibration plus id know if it needs to be returned. Thanks in advance.
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post #1074 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 10:37 AM
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I would be ok with that. I wouldn't be able to do until a weekend though.
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post #1075 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 11:26 AM
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...To me, filmlike means dark, inky and lots of contrast in low APL scenes...

I assume these are your TOP priorities. If so I think it is best for you to wait until the RS55 is available. I'm not saying it will be a better choice, but with those as top priorities it would be a must-see before committing to another pj.

A big part of me deciding to just go for the Sony is that I have come to realize that those are not my priorities. Over the past few years I've mostly been watching video - sports, Discovery, TV shows etc.

Everyone has their own definitions of "film-like" etc. To me the Sony is more plasma-like, and the JVC is more film-like.

A year ago when I got my Samsung 63" plasma I basically stopped watching my projector. During that whole year I watched no more than 2-3 movies on it. And I stopped watching hockey and other sports on it because my Samsung put it to shame. I remember being surprised when I first got it and said that my JVC is no longer king of the household. Now with the Sony its back to a projector being king.

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It this bears itself out. I may be locked into the JVCs and whatever warts they have because this is the single most important thing to me.

Yes exactly. But you say it like its a bad thing. If the JVC is really better at what's most important to you, there's nothing wrong with it. Just be sure about your return policy in case you get a bad unit.

Someone else made a great point here a few days ago. They said that although dark movies was their priority, they give precedence to motion handling, image detail and depth. In which case the Sony wins. So two people can prefer their pj for dark movie watching yet still have different priorities. Its all about trade offs as you know.

I am really curious to see if my memory holds true as to the differences between my RS20 and the VW95. I'm pretty sure I have an extra HDMI cable that'll reach and with the Lumagen XS I can output two signals simultaneously to the units for some A/B testing. I will try to do this within the next couple of days, maybe tonight if time permits.
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post #1076 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I am really curious to see if my memory holds true as to the differences between my RS20 and the VW95. I'm pretty sure I have an extra HDMI cable that'll reach and with the Lumagen XS I can output two signals simultaneously to the units for some A/B testing. I will try to do this within the next couple of days, maybe tonight if time permits.

Now that is something I'd be really interested in hearing about: I was a little disspointed with your remarks that the blacks of the VW95ES were maybe on par with the RS40 as I'd be looking for an improvement in blacks over the RS40 from my next projector. I've seen an RS40 and while it was OK, in black level terms, I didn't think it was much of a difference over my HD350.

I wonder if I'm at a point where I need a bigger improvement (like going from 30,000:1 claimed on/off to 100,000:1) to really register it. I probably quadrupalled my native on/off going from an AE3000 to the HD350 (and at least doubled it if you include the dynamic iris on/off for the '3000). I suppose I'd seen the headline 150,000:1 figure for the VW95ES and thought that this would be enough to really see a big step up.

FWIW I don't watch any sport on my projector and many films I watch seem to be dark, so I guess that's my priority. I think that the motion doesn't overly bother me, but I'm sure that once I replace the HD350 I'd struggle to go back to it in motion terms...

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #1077 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 11:49 AM
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Hello,lovingdvd
It will be ideal to try to adjust black level on JVC without being a little crushed(like you said before).I had RS20 for 2,5 years and i know how black it was,but for me 95es is in the same league if not better then RS20.
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post #1078 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post

Mine too behave in the same way.When i try to adjust focus(test pattern on),focus is a little blurry.

Yes I found that to be the case with my unit too. And its not just with the word "focus" on the focus pattern but also with anything displayed. Even standing up at the screen it is hard to see the pixel structure - even with my glasses. I was expecting to be able to see the 4 borders around each pixel when displayed in a "block" of white like i have with other projectors when in focus but I couldn't.

Here is what I came up with to set the focus and it worked nicely... I put up a alternating horizontal resolution pattern (one row of pixels, next row off, next row of pixels, next off, etc). Then I stood up at the screen with a little magnifying card (basically looks like a mash up of a credit card and magnifying glass) and hold that at the right distance between my eyes and screen where the magnification is the largest. Its not a largest magnification but its a nice boost.

Then I pick a row of pixels near the center of the screen and look at the bottom edges. If your focus is perfect you will find that there is a little jagginess (slight saw-tooth type of look) along the bottom of that row of pixels. Then I go left and right to make sure focus is even, and also check a few rows closer to the top and bottom of the screen as well.

SOWK posted a picture of his pixel structure which is much more defined then mine so I'm not sure if its the same but his camera compared to mine or if he has an exceptional unit in this regard but sounds like many of us have the same focus.
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post #1079 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Now that is something I'd be really interested in hearing about: I was a little disspointed with your remarks that the blacks of the VW95ES were maybe on par with the RS40 as I'd be looking for an improvement in blacks over the RS40 from my next projector. I've seen an RS40 and while it was OK, in black level terms, I didn't think it was much of a difference over my HD350.

I haven't seen an RS40. I was referring to the RS20.Remember I have prefaced all these remarks that it is by memory. Your eyes can play tricks on your in the dark.

OK so let me give you an example of the type of scene I am talking about... In the opening of The Hulk there is a scene where the frame is complete black except the guy is sitting there looking into a microscope. All you can see are his eyelashes and part of his eyeball and part of the microscope.

On the RS20 from what I remember the black level in the rest of the picture is deep black. On the VW95 it is also a very good black but by memory it is not quite as deep and not as much contrast as a result. Now that said, if I put it into a 2.4 or 2.5 gamma then it is much closer to what I remember. I will no more when I do some A/B testing.
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post #1080 of 3608 Old 11-20-2011, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

SOWK posted a picture of his pixel structure which is much more defined then mine so I'm not sure if its the same but his camera compared to mine or if he has an exceptional unit in this regard but sounds like many of us have the same focus.

So even on a full field white / red / green / blue you can not get them defined like this?

It could be my substantial size of image that makes it very easy for me to do this.

Along with taking pictures of my extremely low light scene, I will also take some of red / green / blue full field pattern focus.
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