Official JVC RS55/X70 owners thread. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

The distance from the screen will affect Lux but it will not affect Lumens. You are measuring with the light meter facing the projector (its back against the screen), not reading off the screen right? I am also reading the absolute max the projector will output, not D65.


ahh.. ok, I didn't realize you were measuring with the color profile=off like we did last year when comparing. I am curious to hear your measurements to D65 and what percent of drop off it has compared the X7.

I do recall you weren't thrilled with the convergence on the X7 you had. My RS50 is at 400 hours total and by pure luck the convergence is now near perfect all the way around. originally I did a -1 on blue, but these days I leave it at stock since it's so close.

I can't wait to hear the rest of your impressions regarding the CMS, Gamma, 3D ghosting (cold boot and 30 minute warmup, etc)

thanks again for your feedback!
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post #272 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 04:12 PM
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His numbers were within a 10% variance of the original numbers I had, not that far off. I have weighted his measurements into the average now, because it appears he is one of the few that takes the measurements correctly.

I now have set the calculator as 1207 lumens at closet throw (+15% of 1050) for absolute brightest mode for the RS-55/65, he has 1280, about a 6% difference is all. The accuracy target in the calculator is + or - 15%, and hopefully rarely to exceed a 20% variance, of course there will be rare exceptions.

Generally so far most measurements from users have stayed under 15%, the average error in my spreadsheet across tested measurements is 12%, last month it was 23%, it's getting more accurate.


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post #273 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 04:18 PM
 
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1207? You sure its not 1208? At this point being a dumb engineer, i would just use 1200.
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post #274 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks for the clarification. Any chance you can measure at D65? Would be great to get a number in low lamp as well. And at different throw ranges if it's not too much trouble. Thanks.

Usually, THX measured quite closely, so if you do not have time to do full calibration, measuring at THX would at least give us a really good idea.. say within +/- 10-20%.

Thanks!! I am getting more and more excited!! I might just pull the plug!!
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post #275 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 04:24 PM
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1050 from Mid-zoom is the basis, only comes out to 1207 because of the percentage modifier. The numbers are averaged and then generally rounded, how they are rounded depends on how many entries I have. I don't randomly adjust them unless I have a reason or evidence that the averaging failed or I had some bad measurements.

The calculator isn't perfect, but it's getting more accurate over time. In about a month, I'll have more accurate modifiers.
I have found it to be within 10% more than not, but JVC I have less data on than some projectors.


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post #276 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 04:30 PM
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BTW, I download the JVC manual, and the shortest throw seems to be 1.35 instead of 1.4? Can anyone confirm if it is really 1.4 or is it something like 1.35 or 1.37? The reason I need to be that accurate is that with my 10ft wide 2.35:1 using zoom, 1.4 will require 168inch, while 1.38 will require 166 inch. Now, my mount is fixed, and at 170 inch... I would feel more comfortable if I get a bit more margin. 2 inch makes me nervous.
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post #277 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 04:35 PM
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I'll read over it, but I absolutely despise the manuals on throw numbers, they are all over the place and they make their own charts and their throw numbers completely conflict sometimes. It would help me and my calculator if someone can test throw distances and report back to me, but I know most people do not want to mess with this (so no pressure). You wouldn't believe some of the variances I've seen in charts and throw ratios in the manuals, up to 5" at times, generally within 2" though. The Panny 7000 manual had an hilarious throw chart for 2.35 suggesting the projector was basically a short throw projector, but the numbers were way off.

Preliminary data suggest that the throw ratio is more accurate than the charts in some manuals, but I really have no idea for sure, I'm in the midst of testing it.


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post #278 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 05:02 PM
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I just bought my X70 yesterday, and it will be delivered this Saturday, with one pair of stereo glasses and emitter.

I spent some time at the shop again, where we did some comparisons with the SONY w95, and the x70 looked better, with better contrasts, details, whites and a total lack of screen door when sitting close.

Colors do look a tad thin and on the red side but I guess its something that can be fixed by playing with the settings.

The guy at the shop also said that the lamp is brand new and may need to be run for a few hours to get the colors right - not sure if thats really the case.
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post #279 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydra_matic View Post

I just bought my X70 yesterday, and it will be delivered this Saturday, with one pair of stereo glasses and emitter.

I spent some time at the shop again, where we did some comparisons with the SONY w95, and the x70 looked better, with better contrasts, details, whites and a total lack of screen door when sitting close.

Colors do look a tad thin and on the red side but I guess its something that can be fixed by playing with the settings.

The guy at the shop also said that the lamp is brand new and may need to be run for a few hours to get the colors right - not sure if thats really the case.

If the colors are on the Red side then I would think the few hour run in statement may be true. Red is usually the lowest of the three in the 40/50/60's.

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post #280 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydra_matic View Post

Colors do look a tad thin and on the red side but I guess its something that can be fixed by playing with the settings.

Congratulations on your purchase, sounds like you will eventually just need to calibrate it after about 50 to 100 hours, do you have a meter, I think AVS has or "had" a special on a SpectraCal, never used that meter before though, but sounded good.

Check the calibration threads, but sooner or later some expert calibrator is bound to give us some ideas on what he found with this projector as a general idea of what to expect when calibrating.


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post #281 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 05:27 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I don't have a meter but I trust my eyes when it comes to colors.
I may also use my analog out Blu-ray player and adjust the RGB signal to easily fine tune the reds with a turn of a button using my RGB color processor, since the x70 has analog input.

Time to wrestle with the 3 eyed beast to get it out of the room before Saturday.
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post #282 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

BTW, I download the JVC manual, and the shortest throw seems to be 1.35 instead of 1.4? Can anyone confirm if it is really 1.4 or is it something like 1.35 or 1.37? The reason I need to be that accurate is that with my 10ft wide 2.35:1 using zoom, 1.4 will require 168inch, while 1.38 will require 166 inch. Now, my mount is fixed, and at 170 inch... I would feel more comfortable if I get a bit more margin. 2 inch makes me nervous.

With my RS20, and earlier a RS1, I found that ~1.37 was the effective minimum throw ratio.
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post #283 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 05:45 PM
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Thanks millerwill.
I'll be interested in what you other guys find on throws as well if anyone wants to post info.


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post #284 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post


Check the calibration threads, but sooner or later some expert calibrator is bound to give us some ideas on what he found with this projector as a general idea of what to expect when calibrating.

jon knows a little something about calibration. I am looking forward to hearing his results:
  • baseline gray scale - X70 vs X7, the red was way down on my RS50 and had to compensate with large amounts of gain reduction in blue/green which caused a fair amount of lumen loss. I'd love to know how close the X70 is here. Any chance the lamp has changed in this regard.. maybe a swap/test between both projectors?

  • Gamma changes - does it affect the gray scale. JVC couldn't/wouldn't fix this on the 50/60/X7/X9. This was a major pain and it didn't affect the 40/X3. One of the theories was their home brewed genessa processor had some hardware flaws that couldn't be fixed in software, otherwise they would have fixed it like they did with the RS20.

  • CMS Bugs - several of us beat this horse into the ground last year, Manni has some great workarounds that I used myself, but is it fixed this year..?

  • Color profile=off vs. on.. lumen drop? How much on the X70 vs. X7?

  • 3D ghosting - 3D L/R patterns on cold boot vs. 30 mins later.. does the ghosting after warmup reduce a fair amount like it did on the 40/50, etc.

http://www.tridef.com/support/3d-test-images.html
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post #285 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 08:04 PM
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Alright. I just made my decision and my dealer told me that they are upgrading FW on RS55 (apparently, 45 and 65 is OK and no need.. Hmm...) Can't wait!
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post #286 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Alright. I just made my decision and my dealer told me that they are upgrading FW on RS55 (apparently, 45 and 65 is OK and no need.. Hmm...) Can't wait!

Congrats!

There is already a firmware update on the RS55? What does it address?
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post #287 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I haven't opened it up. I was just told that it was a new version.

For e-shift, yes I can definitely see a PQ difference at >1SW. You can adjust how much the e-shift effect is visible, it has setting levels of 0,1,2,3

Convergence is better than my X7, but not perfect. It still does change a bit as it warms up. The centre is very good. Blue heads out a bit in one corner horizontally. Nothing outrageous. My initial tests suggests no obvious motion artifacts or side effects from using the micro zone adjustments on convergence. My X7 moved quite a bit more during warm-up in the centre and it was red that moved. Once warmed up the X7 was okay though...I just didn't like the warm-up effect and red was never as good as this X70.

Wow cool... I must have missed a post... e-shift can definitely be turned on & off Jon??


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post #288 of 3675 Old 11-30-2011, 09:49 PM
 
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At the show they turned it off and on. It always looked better on and I can see no reason why one would want to turn it off. At the show they made no mention of an intensity control for e shift. Either the e shift shifts the frame going thru it or it doesn't. The original frame is not e-shifted. The scaled frame is . Its either pregnant or its not preqnant. There can't be a partially pregnant. I wonder what the e shift intensity control does. Maybe 0 is off. But 1, 2, 3? CHA CHA CHA? Perhaps 1 is on. Does it change the intensity of the scaled frame? What could it do? Obviously something. But what?

I guess we should start a guessing game or maybe its in the manual. Is the manual out yet? I'll search tomorrow. I am getting excited.
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post #289 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

1207? You sure its not 1208? At this point being a dumb engineer, i would just use 1200.

and of course 1200 is the specification this year for an X70/X90 vs the 1300 of an X30
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post #290 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:42 AM
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I just read the manual and looked very carefully for anything related to setting or turning off e-shift. I can't find anything. Jon, can you take a screen shot of the menu showing the option?

As a matter of fact, it appears that the word "eshift", "e-shift" nor "4k" do not appear anywhere in the manual. The only reference to this is in the specifications.

Paul
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post #291 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

At the show they turned it off and on. It always looked better on and I can see no reason why one would want to turn it off. At the show they made no mention of an intensity control for e shift. Either the e shift shifts the frame going thru it or it doesn't. The original frame is not e-shifted. The scaled frame is . Its either pregnant or its not preqnant. There can't be a partially pregnant. I wonder what the e shift intensity control does. Maybe 0 is off. But 1, 2, 3? CHA CHA CHA? Perhaps 1 is on. Does it change the intensity of the scaled frame? What could it do? Obviously something. But what?

I guess we should start a guessing game or maybe its in the manual. Is the manual out yet? I'll search tomorrow. I am getting excited.


0 is not off. You can switch it off in the service menu which I found essential to setting the focus on the projector. So I don't know exactly what 0,1,2,3 do, but each step increases sharpness. We know there is a scaling algorithm here, so I assume it is modifying that algorithm in some way, possibly applying some sort of edge enhancement.
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post #292 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:47 AM
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The editors of the manual must really like LOTR ...

See the attachment

Paul
LL
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post #293 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkarmouche View Post

I just read the manual and looked very carefully for anything related to setting or turning off e-shift. I can't find anything. Jon, can you take a screen shot of the menu showing the option?

As a matter of fact, it appears that the word "eshift", "e-shift" nor "4k" do not appear anywhere in the manual. The only reference to this is in the specifications.

Paul

This is because it is not called e-shift in the manual or on the projector. It is called MPC. The user guide does not describe the paramater and it is on an addendum sheet. It says "Adjust the effect of resolution sense caused by increase in resolution of image display". That doesn't really help us know what it is actually doing yet!!
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post #294 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

0 is not off. You can switch it off in the service menu which I found essential to setting the focus on the projector. So I don't know exactly what 0,1,2,3 do, but each step increases sharpness. We know there is a scaling algorithm here, so I assume it is modifying that algorithm in some way, possibly applying some sort of edge enhancement.

Jon,

Does the 0,1,2,3 setting also appear only in the service menu? What is the title of the menu? "e-shift"?

Also, a detailed analysis of the function and accuracy of the lens memory would be appreciated by many of us Thanks for the reports!

Paul
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post #295 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Congrats!

There is already a firmware update on the RS55? What does it address?

I don't know.. that's what my dealer told me. He had 45 and 65, but 55 is waiting for the FW update... I think it might be doing the final "tweak". maybe that's what one of the members here referred to (that he got the engineering release and need the "release FW").
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post #296 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkarmouche View Post

Jon,

Does the 0,1,2,3 setting also appear only in the service menu? What is the title of the menu? "e-shift"?

Also, a detailed analysis of the function and accuracy of the lens memory would be appreciated by many of us Thanks for the reports!

Paul

The 0,1,2,3 is in the user menus for anyone to adjust easily, not service menu. But to switch e-shift off you need to go into the service menu and change MPC to Off
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post #297 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

This is because it is not called e-shift in the manual or on the projector. It is called MPC. The user guide does not describe the paramater and it is on an addendum sheet. It says "Adjust the effect of resolution sense caused by increase in resolution of image display". That doesn't really help us know what it is actually doing yet!!

Thank you for the info. I plugged part of the phrase you quoted from the addendum into Google and hit a link to that addendum. It's too large to attach, but I attached a screen shot and you can get it at this link: http://www33.jvckenwood.com/pdfs/PC021085799-0.pdf

You are right - it doesn't give us any clue what it is really doing! It does reference "adjusting image noise" as part of "MPC". I wonder what "MPC" stands for...

Paul
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post #298 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

I don't know.. that's what my dealer told me. He had 45 and 65, but 55 is waiting for the FW update... I think it might be doing the final "tweak". maybe that's what one of the members here referred to (that he got the engineering release and need the "release FW").

I have been assured that there was no slip-up with an engineering release firmware. It is a tweak as you suggested. I see no reason why Conan shouldn't be able to get the update so he can do it himself without sending the whole projector back.
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post #299 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 01:17 AM
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Just as an FYI to others:

I don't go by MFR specs, I average out numbers from calibrators, testers, and reviews. Each one has a different weighting in my averaging system, but it is a work in progress, I have over 200 entries in an Excel spreadsheet total, but like I said I am weak on the JVC numbers, but still I was generally close. It could come out to 1214.19, and nothing I can do about it, it's simply an averaged number that starts out as a rounded mid-zoom number that then gets increased by a modifier.

I use a percentile averaging and rounding method, which means I throw numbers out that are off by a certain amount from the higher weighted average (reviewers and calibrators).

The big LUMEN update across all projectors will occur soon enough, as I just need a little more data and then I will re-average it all. This is why Beta versions exist, I certainly don't have the manpower behind it to release a closed beta. Some of the numbers I just haven't had time to work on as much as others, but they are on the to-do list and by Beta 0.25 it will be even more accurate across all projectors.


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post #300 of 3675 Old 12-01-2011, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Just as an FYI to others:

I don't go by MFR specs, I average out numbers from calibrators, testers, and reviews. Each one has a different weighting in my averaging system, but it is a work in progress, I have over 200 entries in an Excel spreadsheet total, but like I said I am weak on the JVC numbers, but still I was generally close. It could come out to 1214.19, and nothing I can do about it, it's simply an averaged number that starts out as a rounded mid-zoom number that then gets increased by a modifier.

Furthermore, I use a percentile averaging and rounding method, which means I throw numbers out that are off by a certain amount from the higher weighted average (reviewers and calibrators). People can say what they want and continue to make snide remarks, but the program is still in BETA, and I think some people just don't get it.

The big LUMEN update across all projectors will occur soon enough, as I just need a little more data and then I will re-average it all. This is why Beta versions exist, I certainly don't have the manpower behind it to release a closed beta. Some of the numbers I just haven't had time to work on as much as others, but they are on the to-do list and by Beta 0.25 it will be even more accurate.

I think what you are doing is great!! I didn't see any snide remarks, nor can I understand why anyone would make them. People want to understand the light output for their throw etc., and it needs creations like this to make that possible.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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