Official JVC RS55/X70 owners thread. - Page 94 - AVS Forum
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post #2791 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 10:51 AM
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Are most of you RS55 owners running you lamp in High Powered Mode or Normal?

For some reason, in low powered, I just either don't get the blacks I'm looking for, or if I close the iris down, then I lose the 'pop' the image otherwise has.

If I run the lamp in High powered mode, I can get a much more satisfying image. But at $500.00 a pop for the lamp, I'm a little hesitant to do that.

What's interesting, is I don't remember having an issue with the black level on my HD1. Even in low powered lamp mode (as long as the lamp was fairly new). And the RS55 is supposed to have waaaay better CR, than the HD1.

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post #2792 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 12:33 PM
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@Rutgar this should help.

Measurement results off Cine4home site
DLA-X 70 / X 90

Lamp modeZoomIRISLumenX 70 / X 90

High / D65 Max Open 920 26000:1 34000:1
High / D65 Min Open 810 32000:1 42000:1
Low / D65 Max Open 640 26000:1 34000:1
Low / D65 Min Open 560 32000:1 42000:1

High / D65 Max Middle 700 33000:1 50000:1
High / D65 Min Middle 570 42000:1 62000:1
Low / D65 Max Middle 490 33000:1 50000:1
Low / D65 Min Middle 390 42000:1 62000:1

High / D65 Max Closed 370 53000:1 80000:1
High / D65 Min Closed 310 69000:1 105,000:1
Low / D65 Max Closed 260 53000:1 80000:1
Low / D65 Min Closed 210 69000:1 105000:1

High / native Max Open 240 38000:1 60000:1
High / native Min Closed 460 87000:1 130,000:1
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post #2793 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 01:55 PM
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I didn't know at max zoom on normal lamp with the iris closed my contrast was so good. Good to have a HP
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post #2794 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I didn't know at max zoom on normal lamp with the iris closed my contrast was so good. Good to have a HP

that's why I like the 55 vs. the 50 I had last year - I can keep the iris @ -13 and still get great brightness & contrast with the HP.

Until we have affordable 2k+ lumen projectors @ D65, the 2.8 HP's legacy will continue to live on in my HT.
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post #2795 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

Are most of you RS55 owners running you lamp in High Powered Mode or Normal?

For some reason, in low powered, I just either don't get the blacks I'm looking for, or if I close the iris down, then I lose the 'pop' the image otherwise has.

If I run the lamp in High powered mode, I can get a much more satisfying image. But at $500.00 a pop for the lamp, I'm a little hesitant to do that.

What's interesting, is I don't remember having an issue with the black level on my HD1. Even in low powered lamp mode (as long as the lamp was fairly new). And the RS55 is supposed to have waaaay better CR, than the HD1.

What kind of screen/gain do you have? Has the projector been calibrated?

The lamps have come down in price. I can't post the street price, but it's a little easier to swallow than the $500 price you mentioned.

I run high lamp - and I have a high powered screen. I just like a bright image and will deal with shortened lifespan of the lamp when the time comes.
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post #2796 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

What kind of screen/gain do you have? Has the projector been calibrated?

The lamps have come down in price. I can't post the street price, but it's a little easier to swallow than the $500 price you mentioned.

I run high lamp - and I have a high powered screen. I just like a bright image and will deal with shortened lifespan of the lamp when the time comes.

I have a Stewart StudioTek 130. I am running the projector in THX mode with the iris at -7. The only calibration that's been done was by me using a blu-ray calibration disc.

I may have to just bite the financial bullet and run the lamp in high mode, since I'm just not satisfied with the picture with the lamp in normal mode.

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post #2797 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 09:29 PM
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I have just started following this thread and reading the replies I am starting to have doubts about purchasing one. The reason I am hesitating about buying one is I am not sure it will be bright enough for my room. I am replacing an Infocus 7205 DLP projector. The room is dedicated and dark. I am using a 120" Da Lite screen at 1.5 gain. Should I look elsewhere? It sounds like users are better satisfied using the high lamp setting for better brightness.

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post #2798 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I have just started following this thread and reading the replies I am starting to have doubts about purchasing one. The reason I am hesitating about buying one is I am not sure it will be bright enough for my room. I am replacing an Infocus 7205 DLP projector. The room is dedicated and dark. I am using a 120" Da Lite screen at 1.5 gain. Should I look elsewhere? It sounds like users are better satisfied using the high lamp setting for better brightness.

Depends on the person. Some prefer a bright image and some do not. How many lumens do you prefer when watching a movie?
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post #2799 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I have just started following this thread and reading the replies I am starting to have doubts about purchasing one. The reason I am hesitating about buying one is I am not sure it will be bright enough for my room. I am replacing an Infocus 7205 DLP projector. The room is dedicated and dark. I am using a 120" Da Lite screen at 1.5 gain. Should I look elsewhere? It sounds like users are better satisfied using the high lamp setting for better brightness.

I would think you would be more than happy filling a 120" 1.5 gain screen, thats easy. I'm filling a 140" scope screen with an "A" lens on a AT screen 1.16 gain and Im very happy with the lumens on the screen, mind you I do have to use high lamp.

I have never owned any projector that I was able to use low lamp even in the days when I had a 120" matte screen. Lamps today though are brighter, thanks to 3D.
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post #2800 of 3675 Old 04-11-2012, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post


I would think you would be more than happy filling a 120" 1.5 gain screen, thats easy. I'm filling a 140" scope screen with an "A" lens on a AT screen 1.16 gain and Im very happy with the lumens on the screen, mind you I do have to use high lamp.

I have never owned any projector that I was able to use low lamp even in the days when I had a 120" matte screen. Lamps today though are brighter, thanks to 3D.

Thank you, I would love to go to a 130" scope screen. I will most likely change screens after the projector is hooked up and I get used to it. You're right about the brightness, I was surprised how quickly my viewing enjoyment changed when switching to the brighter setting!

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post #2801 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 04:42 AM
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Girstly, Geof and co. Thank you very much for the replies regarding the PSS and HDMI input settings. I am going to apply your suggestions tonight and see how I go.

Currently watching Game of Thrones through the Mac Mini while reading the posts about the contrast ratio results. Interesting.

I have a 130" 1.2gain 16:9 screen and felt my HD950 wasn't quite bright enough to fill it with everything turned on high. I find my X70 does a better job, and is perfectly adequate. I am not left feeling its dull. Nor am I left feeling its really bright. I run my X70 in high lamp mode and full open aperture/IRIS, D65 colour.

Now... after reading the contrast results above, I have quickly closed my iris down to -7 instead of fully open. I did this because I wanted to see the apparent 25% increase in contrast and I have to say the image is very nice. I was concerned the lumens would be reduced too far, but I'm happy to say its great.

A few more thoughts on my new X70...

The picture is getting better. Like Im getting more impressed every time I watch it. I guess this is typical of a new projector with a new bulb? It takes around 100 hours to burn in right?

I see a definite improvement over my HD950. It's not massive, but I find myself smiling every few minutes because the picture impresses me so much. Even ****** 720p rips of TV shows.

Now to tinker with the blu ray colour settings etc on the PS3..

Thanks again for the tips.

Scott
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post #2802 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

So it should be:

ycbcr - this is in the BD/DVD playback menu

RGB limited
superwhite ON

Both of those are in the Display menu. Even though you would think that the RGB setting would not affect ycbcr BD output, it actually does.

I do think that the ycbcr only affects Blu Ray playback and that anything using the XMB (home screen, games, trailers played from the PS3 store) are still output using RGB...not 100% sure but I think so.

OK so I just set everything to above.

Am I correct in assuming I STILL need TWO different user settings on my projector? One with the contrast / brightness set to 0, and one with contrast / brightness set to +13 / -6? I just loaded Star Trek up on Blu Ray and the blacks are still grey.

Scottie
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post #2803 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post

OK so I just set everything to above.

Am I correct in assuming I STILL need TWO different user settings on my projector? One with the contrast / brightness set to 0, and one with contrast / brightness set to +13 / -6? I just loaded Star Trek up on Blu Ray and the blacks are still grey.

Scottie

Those are the correct settings for the PS3. So set those and check you brightness/contrast using a calibration disc. Once those are correct, switch to your other source, if it looks wrong (grey blacks or crushed blacks) then you'd need two settings with the corrected brightness/contrast for each source.
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post #2804 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post


The picture is getting better. Like Im getting more impressed every time I watch it. I guess this is typical of a new projector with a new bulb? It takes around 100 hours to burn in right?

Not really. Projectors don't burn-in or improve. In fact the projector is most accurate out of the box in terms of greyscale and gamma, and then it quickly starts deviating requiring a calibration at around 150 hours, where it remains a bit more stable for the next 2-300 hundred hours.

The only thing is that the bulb dims quite a bit in the first 100 hours. If you have a smallish screen then even with the aperture fully closed, it may still be too bright resulting in the preception that black level isn't good.

It is possible you have just observed the bulb dimming meaning the black level improved for your given settings, and therefore you also felt like the perceived contrast improved too.
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post #2805 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Not really. Projectors don't burn-in or improve. In fact the projector is most accurate out of the box in terms of greyscale and gamma, and then it quickly starts deviating requiring a calibration at around 150 hours, where it remains a bit more stable for the next 2-300 hundred hours.

The only thing is that the bulb dims quite a bit in the first 100 hours. If you have a smallish screen then even with the aperture fully closed, it may still be too bright resulting in the preception that black level isn't good.

It is possible you have just observed the bulb dimming meaning the black level improved for your given settings, and therefore you also felt like the perceived contrast improved too.

It's been my experience that the dimmer the bulb, the worse the perceived contrast. My projector appears to have much deeper blacks with the lamp in High Mode.

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post #2806 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

It's been my experience that the dimmer the bulb, the worse the perceived contrast. My projector appears to have much deeper blacks with the lamp in High Mode.

That is simply because as the bulb dims you need to open the aperture enough otherwise the whole image is too dim and you feel you have less contrast even though its still the same.

Contrast never changes as the bulb dims. Blacks just become blacker and whites becomes darker as well with it. The ratio remains identical. However two things damage perceived contrast. A 100,000:1 contrast ratio won't look that way if black was 2 lumens for example. Similarly if black is 0.001 lux and white is 100 lux, it still won't look like that contrast is there.

Also contrast is the same in both low and high bulb modes. However, the reason blacks appear deeper in high bulb mode, is that the image is bright enough, that your eyes are forced to close their iris more, meaning you are no longer able to see that black is in fact grey. Obviously in reality black is darker in low bulb mode. The difference is likely to be noticed on a fade to black scene though.

Choosing between high bulb and a more closed aperture, vs low bulb and a more open aperture, would obviously suggest high bulb is better as you will get more contrast with the aperture setting...but then you have a noisier projector and a shorter bulb life.

As I have a smaller screen I run with a -13 aperture in low bulb mode and the image has plenty of punch in it for me. I run at 12ftL. Most people like 12-14. There are a few brightness junkies out there though....
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post #2807 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

As I have a smaller screen I run with a -13 aperture in low bulb mode and the image has plenty of punch in it for me. I run at 12ftL. Most people like 12-14. There are a few brightness junkies out there though....

I must be one of those junkies LOL. If I open my Home theatre double doors, I can see into our living room where we have a 55" Samsung LED LCD. Even with my Projector on full bulb, fully open iris, the LCD TV is 2 - 3 times as bright. Another thing that sucks is when you open your laptop while watching a movie on the projector only to realise your $1500 laptop has a lot more brightness (for the size).

When I first got my previous HD950, which was the first projector I had owned, I have to say I was fairly disappointed with the brightness. I was expecting a mind blowing picture on all fronts given it was a top of the range $10k RRP projector (here in Australia). I have a 130" 16:9 screen.

Over time I think it started to sink in that projectors are not going to match an LED backlit LCD TV.

Would I like my X70R/RS55 to be even brighter than it is.... that is a resounding YES. Does it look bad now? Hell no. It looks awesome. I honestly think I am still slowly getting used to the image put out by projectors. It's different. Especially with JVCs. I started to realise that you don't need your whites to be luminescent and blinding.

I'm trialling having the iris on half, and lamp on full. I think it looks quite good. But the brightness junkie in me wants to open the iris to full again!
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post #2808 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post


I'm trialling having the iris on half, and lamp on full. I think it looks quite good. But the brightness junkie in me wants to open the iris to full again!

I know what you mean Scott. I feel the same way. But like all things in life, there is a trade off. I find that I can live with the iris at -7 to get the black level I prefer, with the lamp on High.

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post #2809 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post


I must be one of those junkies LOL. If I open my Home theatre double doors, I can see into our living room where we have a 55" Samsung LED LCD. Even with my Projector on full bulb, fully open iris, the LCD TV is 2 - 3 times as bright. Another thing that sucks is when you open your laptop while watching a movie on the projector only to realise your $1500 laptop has a lot more brightness (for the size).

When I first got my previous HD950, which was the first projector I had owned, I have to say I was fairly disappointed with the brightness. I was expecting a mind blowing picture on all fronts given it was a top of the range $10k RRP projector (here in Australia). I have a 130" 16:9 screen.

Over time I think it started to sink in that projectors are not going to match an LED backlit LCD TV.

Would I like my X70R/RS55 to be even brighter than it is.... that is a resounding YES. Does it look bad now? Hell no. It looks awesome. I honestly think I am still slowly getting used to the image put out by projectors. It's different. Especially with JVCs. I started to realise that you don't need your whites to be luminescent and blinding.

I'm trialling having the iris on half, and lamp on full. I think it looks quite good. But the brightness junkie in me wants to open the iris to full again!

Have you thought about changing your screen?
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post #2810 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 09:25 PM
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I have a firehawk screen and am running mine at normal power at about -10 on the iris at 400 hours and it is very bright. I'm going to dial back as the hours increase and at about 1000 hours switch to high power. For 3d I am running at high power and at about - 8. Still plenty bright. SJ
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post #2811 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 10:12 PM
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Yes, 1.8 was for 3D, otherwise shadow detail was unacceptable dim. I used 2.2 gamma for 2D.

Glenn

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Thanks glenned, that was informative.

Just to make sure, concerning the RS55:



The 1.8 gamma was for 3D right?

What gamma did you use in 2D?

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post #2812 of 3675 Old 04-12-2012, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy Lammer View Post

glenned:
I wonder how you feel about the Sony 1000 vs RS65 -> if you felt the RS65's even higher contrast would sway you to choose it over the 1000, regardless of price.

- Andy

I haven't calibrated an RS65 yet, but I have seen all previous versions of JVC PJs. Based on that experience, I would still choose the Sony if cost were no object.

Theorectically, the higher contrast image should be preferable. However, when I actually take one these high contrast PJs and use the iris to increase the contrast, I find that I prefer the brighter image with the iris open, even though the contrast is lower in that setting.

Though the difference between 10K:1 vs 30K:1 contrast sounds huge, the reality is that only certain movie scenes will look better because of that. However, if the 10K:1 PJ is significantly brighter than its competitor, that advantage will be visible in every movie scene.

Another consideration is that unless you are dealing with a "black hole" theater, which is very rare in the real world due to the influence of wives and interior decorators, the theater itself will reduce the difference between the 10K:1 and 30K:1 images as seen on the screen. The small amount of washout coming from room reflections can have a more damaging effect on the darker blacks of the higher CR PJ and can reduce its advantage somewhat.

This is just my personal opinion regarding the comparison between the two PJs. I felt they were both in the same PQ league.

Glenn
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post #2813 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post

OK so I just set everything to above.

Am I correct in assuming I STILL need TWO different user settings on my projector? One with the contrast / brightness set to 0, and one with contrast / brightness set to +13 / -6? I just loaded Star Trek up on Blu Ray and the blacks are still grey.

Scottie

Sounds like you need to do a basic calibration of your contrast and brightness.
Your perceived black level depends a lot on what color space your source outputs verses what you have the projector setup to display. You can have a nice contrasty image with RGB full on the source and a washed out one with RGB limited selected. It could go either way. Same goes for using super white, standard or enhanced in the projector menu. Using the wrong one will wash out your blacks.

I was using two different presets because of the material being displayed. Ripped Movies with one and Ripped TV shows another. I'm using a "WD TV live player" to play both now. I only have to use a standard preset for both movies and TV shows, since I'm not swapping between different software players. Which apparently output two different color spaces. While one looked nice and poppy, the other would look dull or over saturated depending on player. I get a stable image with the WD TV live.
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post #2814 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Have you thought about changing your screen?

No I had not. But you have definitely piked my interest. My current screen is a 1.26 Gain screen. How does that rate in terms of gain? High or low or somewhere in between? Here's the screen I use:

http://www.projectorscreens.com.au/1...d-screens.html

What other options are worth looking at. Would a higher gain screen ruin my blacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Sounds like you need to do a basic calibration of your contrast and brightness.
Your perceived black level depends a lot on what color space your source outputs verses what you have the projector setup to display. You can have a nice contrasty image with RGB full on the source and a washed out one with RGB limited selected. It could go either way. Same goes for using super white, standard or enhanced in the projector menu. Using the wrong one will wash out your blacks.

As I'd mentioned earlier. My Mac looks great running enhanced. Full blacks, full whites. My PS3 Blu Rays look washed out, even with the settings applied as advised by the other members. So at this stage it looks like I'll need two presets on the projector.

Also someone said -6 for brightness and +12/13 for the contrast. Why these numbers? I felt -4 brightness was the darkest the blacks needed to be. Any lower and it just seemed to darken everything with no visible reduction in blacks.

Scott
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post #2815 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 03:35 AM
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If you have a 130" screen and your gain is 1.2-1.3, and you are a brightness junkie, you may want to consider a higher gain screen. There are a super high-gain screens going well over 2.0. These have been quite popular lately due to the reduced brightness in 3D with these projectors. However you must remember that as well as boosting your whites you will also lift your blacks. BUT you will be able to get that aperture closed further, maybe near fully closed down, and that means improved contrast. At 130" I would probably seek a 1.6-1.8 gain screen myself. There are also high contrast enhancing materials, particularly suited if your room is not perfectly light controlled, which are not exactly purist, but help push whites whiter while keeping blacks further down due to the way their reflectivity works. Screen materials are a real science. Also watch out for some screen materials that have a very directional axis of viewing and require your screen and seating to be in direct alignment.
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post #2816 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post


No I had not. But you have definitely piked my interest. My current screen is a 1.26 Gain screen. How does that rate in terms of gain? High or low or somewhere in between? Here's the screen I use:

http://www.projectorscreens.com.au/1...d-screens.html

What other options are worth looking at. Would a higher gain screen ruin my blacks?

As I'd mentioned earlier. My Mac looks great running enhanced. Full blacks, full whites. My PS3 Blu Rays look washed out, even with the settings applied as advised by the other members. So at this stage it looks like I'll need two presets on the projector.

Also someone said -6 for brightness and +12/13 for the contrast. Why these numbers? I felt -4 brightness was the darkest the blacks needed to be. Any lower and it just seemed to darken everything with no visible reduction in blacks.

Scott

I have both screens in my theater, a neutral gain screen, SI Gamma 4K, and a high gain screen, Da Lite HP 2.4. I bought the HP screen last year for 3D. To be honest, I wasn't a fan of it. I had to change my theater around just to accommodate 3D that I barely watched and the viewing angle. Also, I had to use it at max zoom since my throw distance was only 12'6". I didn't watch too much 2D on it because I just thought at max zoom I was losing too much contrast with only gaining brightness. However, when I masked it to a cinemascope format, it was another screen. I can say that I am getting at least 2.1 gain, which means that it is double the brightness of my neutral gain screen. Also, I completely close the iris to -15, and the blacks look similar to my neutral screen with the iris at -12. The picture is not dim at all. I saw a report yesterday that at max zoom with the iris close I can get 53000:1 contrasting out of the 80000:1 it offers. I'm starting to prefer it over my neutral screen. I also have calibrating software, so the picture is phenomenal.

There is a silverstar screen that is 6.0 gain. I saw it with a Sony 1000, and it looked good. You might want to look at that too. But I love my HP screen. I have a 120in now and I might go bigger
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post #2817 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Choosing between high bulb and a more closed aperture, vs low bulb and a more open aperture, would obviously suggest high bulb is better as you will get more contrast with the aperture setting...but then you have a noisier projector and a shorter bulb life.
.

Are you stating that better contrast can only be secured with the aperture closed. Is there not a similar setting than can achieved with lamp on normal with aperture open fully versus high lamp mode with the iris closed to 0?
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post #2818 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 12:20 PM
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The aperture must be closed to maximize contrast, period. The other thing that affects contrast is the mounting position (throw distance) of the projector, farther back = higher contrast, closer up = brighter image. The calibration can also affect it though, but I mean other than that...

For 130", I agree with JonStat, 1.5 or so minimum gain up to 2.0+ optimal. This also depends on how heavy of a projector user someone is per year, if someone puts 200-500 hours of use per year is all, they probably don't mind replacing those lamps once every 1-2 years. For heavier users, you really need to get as much brightness as possible, overkill is better than underkill.


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post #2819 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The aperture must be closed to maximize contrast, period. The other thing that affects contrast is the mounting position (throw distance) of the projector, farther back = higher contrast, closer up = brighter image. The calibration can also affect it though, but I mean other than that...

For 130", I agree with JonStat, 1.5 or so minimum gain up to 2.0+ optimal. This also depends on how heavy of a projector user someone is per year, if someone puts 200-500 hours of use per year is all, they probably don't mind replacing those lamps once every 1-2 years. For heavier users, you really need to get as much brightness as possible, overkill is better than underkill.

Thanks codeguy. I'd prefer to leave the lamp on normal, with the aperture to 0. I'm not a fan of the noise of the high lamp setting. I'm interested in a 2:35 135" high gain screen which should give me more brightness, then I can close the iris, but first must address the fact that my walls and ceiling are painted light colors. Just convinced the wife that they need to be darkened, but without creating a black walled bat cave. Will look at darker blues or grays with a matte finish.
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post #2820 of 3675 Old 04-13-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post

Thanks codeguy. I'd prefer to leave the lamp on normal, with the aperture to 0. I'm not a fan of the noise of the high lamp setting. I'm interested in a 2:35 135" high gain screen which should give me more brightness, then I can close the iris, but first must address the fact that my walls and ceiling are painted light colors. Just convinced the wife that they need to be darkened, but without creating a black walled bat cave. Will look at darker blues or grays with a matte finish.

To avoid upsetting the wife, you may consider a high contrast high gain material. They have high ambient light/reflection rejection while still boosting the whites. While black walls and ceilings are ideal, if you want your marriage to survive this may be a compromise However it does mean your screen should not be one that is positioned so you are looking up towards the ceiling, or where you have seating that is positioned very off axis.
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