OWNERS thread for Mitsubishi HC7800 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 06:27 AM
 
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For reference here is the Panasonic 5000/7000 where crosstalk is evident:

This is an excellent test!

Of course I always cross correlate different sites to insure and accurate picture:
Here is Zombies10K ghosting of the JVC which is alot worse than your site:

Notice this depicts substantially more ghosting (the streetlight) the similar JVC's than at Kraine's French site.
This is a complex subject and perhaps one grey scale picture is not sufficient.
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post #92 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 07:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

On the bottom of the R (Right channel) you can see a trace of the L from the left channel

Was this accurate description of a "trace" used in the original post at the forum?

The fact every 3D DLP projector has been exemplary in the lack of ghosting and flicker. Reviewer Worf says the 7800 "generates ghosting", then scratches his head, then makes a big grin. Is this professional, objective behavior?

Then you under pointed questioning here admit it is a trace amount. I still can't see it.

Others at the French forum have already begun questioning.

In your review of the Acer you forgot to mention that the extra brightness is due to adding white at the expense of accurate color. Cine4home identified the root cause and Projector Reviews said purists are not going to be happy with the color of the Acer.
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post #93 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 07:30 AM
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HiFiFun
For the uneducated members of the site, like myself, I can not see the ghosting outlined in the above photos. Granted my eye site is not 20-20 so that may be the problem. Can you detail what you are referencing in the photos with an arrow or circle the aspects you are describing. I plan on getting this PJ in a few months, and all the insight you all are outlining is beneficial to us rookies.
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post #94 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Was this accurate description of a "trace" used in the original post at the forum?

Then you under pointed questioning here admit it is a trace amount. I still can't see it.

Almost every DLP projector using DLP-LINk glasses, RF glasses or Nvidia glasses are not generating ghosting. This isn't the case with the mitsubishi wich are using none of the previous Glasses I have mentionned, maybe this picture will help you to see the ghosting hififun



I hope that you see the R in the L or I can't help you

Visit the new pjhc.fr forum here : http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/forum/
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post #95 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 08:58 AM
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And it seems that a german owner of the HC7800 have seen the same level on ghosting on his projector :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafunzel View Post

Hallo kraine,
endlich jemand der auch leichtes Ghosting beim HC7800 feststellen mußte.
Das wäre auch sehr seltsam gewesen, wenn das sich hier um einen Einzelfall gehandelt hätte. Wir haben ein Seriengerät für den Verkauf gesehen.

Ich empfehle Dir "Sammys Abenteuer" an zwei Stellen:

1. ab 6:16 min (Ghosting an Sammys Kopf)
2. ab 15:44 min (Ghosting an der Leuchtqualle)

Wir mußten bei beiden Szenen deutliche Doppelkonturen (Crosstalk/Ghosting) feststellen.
Umso dunkler die Szenen, umso deutlicher Doppelkonturen/Ghosting an helleren Objekten.

Erster 3D-DLP wo mir Ghosting auffiel, ohne danach extra gesucht zu haben. Leider, echt schade sowas!

Gruß____images/smilies/insane.gif
Rafunzel 8)



I share his conclusion that the HC7800 is the first DLP that produce this level of ghosting.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...ead=11356&z=15

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post #96 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 09:45 AM
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Thanks Kraine for the pics, I see the R in the L. Didnt know what I was supposed to be looking for in the pics, but the one above shows the crosstalk easily. Thanks Tony
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post #97 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

And it seems that a german owner of the HC7800 have seen the same level on ghosting on his projector :

I share his conclusion that the HC7800 is the first DLP that produce this level of ghosting.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...ead=11356&z=15

Kraine- thanks for the info. On my gamma corrected monitor, I can easily see the R overlay on the L.

I looked for this closely on the W7000 tests, but couldn't see any of the overlapping using the BenQ DLP link glasses.

looking forward to your full report.
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post #98 of 363 Old 01-02-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post


In your review of the Acer you forgot to mention that the extra brightness is due to adding white at the expense of accurate color. Cine4home identified the root cause and Projector Reviews said purists are not going to be happy with the color of the Acer.

Your above statement begs the following questions -- Are purists going to be happy with the obvious ghosting of the JVCs and even the minimal amount shown by the Epsons, Panasonics and Sonys and I guess the DLP Mits as well? Will purists be happy with the RBE and poor black floor shown by the vast majority of DLPs. What are purists going to be happy with? Who are these purists and can they honestly be a purist if they use any of the above projectors? Good luck to the purists!
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post #99 of 363 Old 01-03-2012, 11:17 AM
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That is such slight ghosting I really can't imagine it being noticable in real life. Show that same shot from the movie and I really doubt you would notice it.
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post #100 of 363 Old 01-03-2012, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

I hope that you see the R in the L or I can't help you

I see it now with this picture. But it not in the obvious place - which looks fine. That was where I was looking. Zombie10k added a red arrow so there would be no confusion to this new subject.
The fact its a poor, unsymmetrical test pattern. At the very least put an arrow to where the ghosting is located. It will do until better crosstalk patterns are developed. I want to see one with each of the primary colors too.
A second verification coming in from Germany indicates that there is indeed ghosting. The initial Cin4home and Projector Central reviews did not see it.
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post #101 of 363 Old 01-03-2012, 06:39 PM
 
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On the German forum someone watched with his family and reported:
"Unfortunately, we had the weekend to determine that the RBE for my wife noticed the HC7800 but very strong. We had previously also been other DLP's because they had no problems. A strange feeling when your partner is constantly beside you speak of color flashers and absolutely no one sees themselves."
That is pretty funny.
They also report some optical aberrations with lens shift: black corners and CA.
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post #102 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I have seen now 22 3d films.

And the only ghosting i saw is this:

Ich empfehle Dir "Sammys Abenteuer" an zwei Stellen:

1. ab 6:16 min (Ghosting an Sammys Kopf)
2. ab 15:44 min (Ghosting an der Leuchtqualle

And in avatar at night in de woods with those many purple LIANAS(there was one extreem ghosting up close)

For the rest al movies were ghost free and absoluut a joy to watch with great depth(and easy on the eyes) and much much better than all the projectors i have tried..
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post #103 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 02:37 AM
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My new review about the HC7800D is now online here :

http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/315...HC7800D-0.html

try an automatic transalation of your choice but not the google one

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post #104 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 06:21 AM
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Hi everyone, I'm writing from Italy (sorry for my english!)
I'm an owner of HC 7800 since december 21st.
Unfortunately my sample had a problem in the geometry of the image, the lower right corner was about 1 inch lower than the left one.
I think that the issue was the not perfect assembly of the optical group.
Before giving it back to the seller fot the replacement, i've watched 3 or 4 movies (all in 2d) and i find the image quality really impressive.
Mine is a little size screen (76 inches), and on it the contrast il really high, blacks are good and colors are very natural.
I havent' tried 3d movies.
I cant' understand why after the review, in wich the projector gets top scores in the most important aspects of the image quality (colors, contrast, fluidity, 24p, blacks), the reviewer doesn't reccomend this projector.
Lastly, as owner of benq w5000 I find the image of the mitsubishi really sharp, but I admit that I use it to watch movies and not for test images
Ciao a tutti
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post #105 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

My new review about the HC7800D is now online here :

http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/315...HC7800D-0.html

try an automatic transalation of your choice but not the google one

Thanks for the review Kraine. What do you think is the cause for the ghosting, the machine itself or are the glasses to blame here??
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post #106 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgks72 View Post

Hi everyone, I'm writing from Italy (sorry for my english!)
I'm an owner of HC 7800 since december 21st.
Unfortunately my sample had a problem in the geometry of the image, the lower right corner was about 1 inch lower than the left one.
I think that the issue was the not perfect assembly of the optical group.
Before giving it back to the seller fot the replacement, i've watched 3 or 4 movies (all in 2d) and i find the image quality really impressive.
Mine is a little size screen (76 inches), and on it the contrast il really high, blacks are good and colors are very natural.
I havent' tried 3d movies.
I cant' understand why after the review, in wich the projector gets top scores in the most important aspects of the image quality (colors, contrast, fluidity, 24p, blacks), the reviewer doesn't reccomend this projector.
Lastly, as owner of benq w5000 I find the image of the mitsubishi really sharp, but I admit that I use it to watch movies and not for test images
Ciao a tutti

I think also find it a strange review.(dont get me wrong as its not ment as an attack))

People must first see this projector and not rely on this review i think.

Or maybe there was something wrong with that unit because the picture is razor sharp.

And i have seen the jvc x30,sony hw30,panasonic ae7000.
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post #107 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj2 View Post

Thanks for the review Kraine. What do you think is the cause for the ghosting, the machine itself or are the glasses to blame here??

Yes I'm thinking that the glasses are causing this ghosting. With DLP-Link glasses or RF Glasses I have no ghosting on the ACER 9500BD, OPTOMA HD33, OPTOMA HD83, etc....

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post #108 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgks72 View Post

I cant' understand why after the review, in wich the projector gets top scores in the most important aspects of the image quality (colors, contrast, fluidity, 24p, blacks), the reviewer doesn't reccomend this projector.
Lastly, as owner of benq w5000 I find the image of the mitsubishi really sharp, but I admit that I use it to watch movies and not for test images
Ciao a tutti

Why ? Maybe because of the electric buzz sound that I experiment on this model, because off the ghosting and the loss of Brightness in 3D, because of the 3D emitter that made inoperative other remote controls, because of high chromatic aberration, because off the price of the 3D glasses, because of a DLP picture softer then other DLP projecor, etc.....

Visit the new pjhc.fr forum here : http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/forum/
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post #109 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Why ? Maybe because of the electric buzz sound that I experiment on this model, because off the ghosting and the loss of Brightness in 3D, because of the 3D emitter that made inoperative other remote controls, because of high chromatic aberration, because off the price of the 3D glasses, because of a DLP picture softer then other DLP projecor, etc.....

I for one appreciate your comments. On this forum every potentially popular projector comes under intense scrutiny and all the warts are revealed -- sometimes it takes awhile like projector lamp failure etc. People who already own a particular projector may not like having flaws pointed out. All these projectors have flaws so we decide which ones we can live with when we make our choice. What I like is disclosure and transparency so that I can make an informed decision.

I had already taken this projector off my list do to the very expensive 3D glasses. The other negatives I didn't know about, but I'm glad I do now. The problem for me is that all the 3D projectors have some problems or features missing that I want -- like no DI or FI in 3D mode for the Epsons and so on.
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post #110 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Why ? Maybe because of the electric buzz sound that I experiment on this model, because off the ghosting and the loss of Brightness in 3D, because of the 3D emitter that made inoperative other remote controls, because of high chromatic aberration, because off the price of the 3D glasses, because of a DLP picture softer then other DLP projecor, etc.....

Strange its one off the projectors with almost no ghosting if you compare this against the jvx30 de sony hw30 and the panasonic or the epson tw9000.

Its brighter then most projectors in 3d because off the glasses see the statement from projector central review here:

Mitsubishi's 3D glasses are using LCD panels with a refresh rate that is claimed to be ten times faster than existing technology. This allows the HC7800D to use very short blanking times (the time during which both shutters are closed), thereby letting more light through without introducing crosstalk. Our testing indicates a transmission rate of almost 27%, which is a significant improvement over other current 3D projectors .

So i got a mixed feeling of this review from you,but maybe i am wrong
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post #111 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 10:09 AM
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I made my own Brightness Measurement and I can only report what I'm reading on my device.

But maybe with this visual comparaison, it will help to undertand, that you loose less Brightness with normal and cheap DLP LINK glasses than with the model from Mitsubishi.

MITSUBISHI 3D GLASSES :



DLP LINK :


Visit the new pjhc.fr forum here : http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/forum/
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post #112 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

I made my own Brightness Measurement and I can only report what I'm reading on my device.

But maybe with this visual comparaison, it will help to undertand, that you loose less Brightness with normal and cheap DLP LINK glasses than with the model from Mitsubishi.

MITSUBISHI 3D GLASSES :



DLP LINK :


So normal dlp link glasses would work on this unit?

But what is the benefit of the mitsubishi glasses then?

And why are the most saying that there is more light with the mirtsubishi glasses?

I wish i had a pair of dpl link glasses because now i am curious
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post #113 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

I made my own Brightness Measurement and I can only report what I'm reading on my device.

But maybe with this visual comparaison, it will help to undertand, that you loose less Brightness with normal and cheap DLP LINK glasses than with the model from Mitsubishi.

MITSUBISHI 3D GLASSES :



DLP LINK :


One more question: witch mode was the mitshubishi gamma in,was it the 3d gamma?

And maybe its because it looks dimmer because the 3dmode is calibrated with the mitsubishi glasses and not the other dlplink glasses.
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post #114 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Why ? Maybe because of the electric buzz sound that I experiment on this model, because off the ghosting and the loss of Brightness in 3D, ......., because of high chromatic aberration, because off the price of the 3D glasses, because of a DLP picture softer then other DLP projecor, etc.....

PC reported a similar noise issue on the pre production sample they tested before the review.
I can't express about ghosting because I haven't watched movies in 3d mode, but neither on the Pc review, nor on the owners opinions in this thread is mentioned this issue...
It would be interesting to know if the problem is visible only on the test images or if it is annoying while watching movies (if you can see it just 1 times in 10 movies, I think it's not a problem!).
In Italy the price of 3d glasses is aligned with that one of other projectors (i paid € 140/pair), and about sharpness I think that the image delivered by HC 7800 is sharp enought to keep the aspect of the image natural without looking digital.
Benq 5000 was a little sharper but the image was much more digital than the mitsubishi.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the review, that is the confirm that the aspects of the image quality I care are impressive.
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post #115 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john2910 View Post

One more question: witch mode was the mitshubishi gamma in,was it the 3d gamma?
.

3D FACTORY MODE + gamma 3D and normal lamp mode (high).

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post #116 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 03:40 PM
 
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Kraine,
Do you have Mark's Grand Canyon disc? The closeup tree proves and excellent easily understood test of ghosting:
Here is the JVC RS45 with JVC glasses (severe amount of ghosting)


Here are the official three AVS crosstalk discs (which are also great movies):
Dispicable Me - 5:27
Sammy's - 30:05


Grand Canyon - 12:08

http://www.amazon.fr/Grand-Canyon-Ad...5716344&sr=8-1
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post #117 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgks72 View Post

PC reported a similar noise issue on the pre production sample they tested before the review.
I can't express about ghosting because I haven't watched movies in 3d mode, but neither on the Pc review, nor on the owners opinions in this thread is mentioned this issue...
It would be interesting to know if the problem is visible only on the test images or if it is annoying while watching movies (if you can see it just 1 times in 10 movies, I think it's not a problem!).
.

Ghosting is discrete but you can't see it time to time, but on the ACER 9500BD for example in comparaison there is zero ghosting and more Brightness behind 3D glasses for half the price.

About noise issue, PC and my sample was not the only models that produce this buzz and noise variation. It's depend on wich mode you are choosen, you can hear it (and my beautiful French voice ) and see the worst effect here on this video :


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post #118 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 03:53 PM
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Kraine, I saw your comments on the sharpness of the H7800. Could you possibly comment on the sharpness issues some people are having in the H9500 section, specifically the "blurring" through HDMI as opposed to super sharp using VGA connector? Thanks and keep up the good work.
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post #119 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 07:38 PM
 
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Kraine,
Here is the JVC DLA-X30 crosstalk picture from your review:


This excellent result does not agree with the AVS forum review by Jason. What is going on here? Further there is a special thread dedicated to the ghosting of the new JVC's here. A lot of owners have voiced there displeasure...

Fellow scientists independently verify each others results. Is your crosstalk pattern available? Or can you use the Grand Canyon picture?
The goal here should be to identify the root cause(s) which leads to designing better projectors. As it is now different sites have almost opposite findings.

Just to throw something out there, the IR emitter/glasses have tight timing tolerances, so any IR interference could cause ghosting.
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post #120 of 363 Old 01-04-2012, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

About noise issue, PC and my sample was not the only models that produce this buzz and noise variation. It's depend on wich mode you are choosen, you can hear it (and my beautiful French voice ) and see the worst effect here on this video :

Holy crap that is bad!

Sounds like the power supply (transformer) or ballast is buzzing.

Could have something to do with the 220v/50hz Euro power vs 120v/60hz US power. The HC7800 may not have buzzing issues on US power, though you mentioned 'PC' (projector central?) had a pre-production unit that buzzed?
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