JVS DLA-RS45/X30 Calibration - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 173 Old 02-12-2013, 11:43 AM
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I got my X30 just back from an professional calibration but I am not very happy with the result. The first point at which RGB are within the 90-110% range is at IRE30. At IRE20 Red is way off to the top. This results in having too much red in darker passages. he calibrator said to me (it was in beam calibration) that below 30IRE the measuring device would not be precise enough so all values below 30 are no real values but just noise. Now even looking at an IRE20 test picture it is not dark grey but looks redish. Any thoughts?
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post #152 of 173 Old 02-12-2013, 12:06 PM
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My thoughts are 'who sends their projector away to be calibrated?'. Really unless it's done in your room, on your screen it is at best an approximation of a calibration at worst it could be well off from accurate. I'd recommend getting someone who can calibrate it on site and who has the correct equipment to allow calibration at low % levels since it is possible to do and quite important so that you don't get tinted shadow details (and that you get some detail at all). IMHO it's quite possible to measure down to 5% if required, by creating an offset and measuring directly from the projector if necessary, but the offset needs to be created from your screen to be worthwhile.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #153 of 173 Old 02-23-2013, 05:42 AM
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No matter if using "Wide 1", "Wide 2" or "Standard" colorspace i can't get Cyan and Green placed perfectly into the white squares in the Calman "Gamut CIE". They are right next too them but wont move any closer than that. Blue just barely gets there.

Im using the X30 together with the Dvdo DUO both firmware updated too their latest versions. My measurement tool is the i1 Display Pro. Im using the autocal option and then fine adjusting afterward. The grays calibrate with no problems.

Anything im missing?
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post #154 of 173 Old 02-23-2013, 01:46 PM
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I have hit the 100 hour mark on my 2nd bulb and was hoping I could get some settings to try from someone who's had it calibrated. I know no 2 projectors are the same, but it can't hurt to try some settings and see how I like the picture. I have a 1.1 gain 138" 2:35 screen (110" 16:9) and currently am using the cinema preset, -15 iris, normal lamp. I have done a basic calibration using the DVE blu ray, but wanted to experiment a little. I know a few have used some of the settings posted earlier and had good results. I don't necessarily need the advance color settings (gain, offset, etc.), but was looking for basic settings such as gamma, preset, color and tint, color space, etc..

Thanks again for the help.

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post #155 of 173 Old 02-25-2013, 06:37 PM
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I understand what you're saying, but jvc puts the same presets in each projector and I'm just curious to found out which combos work best from those with the calibration equipment. In most professional reviews, the author (projector reviews) post his or her calibration settings as a good starting point for the beginner. That's all I was looking for so I could try a few out. I've owned 30+ projectors and have always experimented with other settings from individuals who have had their unit calibrated. Not all work, but I found great success using this method over the years. Can't hurt, I can always change it back to my current settings.

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post #156 of 173 Old 02-27-2013, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Again, you are never comparing apples to apples because of all of the variables of a viewing room/screen. And even if they were somewhat apples to apples, you would be talking the difference between a granny smith and a red delicious.

Now, if you want to know just the presets that people are using, it is just as easy for you to flip through them and pick your personal favorite than anything else, because again, you may like a little more red hue in the flesh tones than someone else, and since getting someone else's full settings for grayscale, etc isn't going to help you, you will be left with those basic presets.

Sorry man. I tried the same approach when I got my RS45 and was told over and over that every single projector (not just different makes/models, but EVERY projector just like mine would still be different. Yes, every RS45 (ok, maybe not EVERY one, but you should be getting the idea) will react slightly, or more dramatically different in the exact same room, so once factoring in differences in actual ambient light, screen material (more than just gain), heck, even the color of the paint on the walls, carpet on the floors, image convergence from one projector to the next, age of the bulb, etc all will have an impact on the image.

If someone else wants to share theirs, that is fine, but don't be surprised if it doesn't really look any better in your specific environment.

Jebus, you guys act like this si rocket surgery and can't be undone. What you are saying is of course true, but it can't hurt, because it can always be changed to different settings!

The level of obsession here at AVS is very entertaining to me smile.gif
While many are trying to tweak that last .08% of wattage from their amp or color gamut from their projector, and pulling out the spectrometer and flux-capacitor discombobulators to measure it because no human being can actually tell a difference, some of us will be burning those bulb hours watching movies and letting the amp shake the house.

Lighten up, everything can be re-tweaked if needed.
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post #157 of 173 Old 02-27-2013, 09:31 PM
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"He needs to know . . . "

Uhhh. . . Did I mention "lighten up a little"?

Calm down yourself. No offense intended.

Perhaps I should add that, even though I quoted your post, that my comments were directed at the whole "perfect calibration" mindset posts in general.

My apologies if I ruffled your feathers. I do not however, think I was being rude. Colorful at best. And I even said, "What you are saying is of course true. . "
I'm just tired of the hair-splitting that goes on around here.
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post #158 of 173 Old 02-28-2013, 09:20 AM
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post #159 of 173 Old 02-28-2013, 01:39 PM
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Thanks awake33 for the understanding.

All I was hoping for was to try some settings that others (with equipment or had it calibrated) used and see how I liked the picture. I read over and over again how others ask the same thing, only to get the response I got. Maybe those that answer with that response just don't want to share their settings. That's fine if they don't want to share, but it's just funny that many on this forum respond the same way as nickbuol. Projector reviews, home theater mag, sound and vision, avforums, etc. all post their setting for others to try as a starting point. There's no harm in a non-correct calibration if the end user is happy with the picture.

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post #160 of 173 Old 02-28-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbn008 View Post

Thanks awake33 for the understanding.

All I was hoping for was to try some settings that others (with equipment or had it calibrated) used and see how I liked the picture. I read over and over again how others ask the same thing, only to get the response I got. Maybe those that answer with that response just don't want to share their settings. That's fine if they don't want to share, but it's just funny that many on this forum respond the same way as nickbuol. Projector reviews, home theater mag, sound and vision, avforums, etc. all post their setting for others to try as a starting point. There's no harm in a non-correct calibration if the end user is happy with the picture.

Woah... Throwing me under the bus. Damn this site pisses me off some times. You want setting, fine, whatever. Forgive me for giving solid advice.

Why not go to those sites and get settings then. I did that with my old Sanyo and it worked OK, but these JVCs are different it seems because they are capable of producing such a great image that it can be screwed up.

Anyway, I've deleted my apparently useless posts. It isn't like I sell calibration software, or anything. I am a hobbiest, like you, and I shared my experiences where I, just like you, asked for other people's settings, I got them, they made things worse, I shared that experience. I never stopped you from getting settings from anyone else.

Unsubscribing from this thread, flame away because I won't be back here. I have a home theater to enjoy instead of listening to people who just want what they think is the "free and easy" path even if it won't get them where they THINK it will.

I really was only trying to help.
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post #161 of 173 Old 02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Woah... Throwing me under the bus. Damn this site pisses me off some times. You want setting, fine, whatever. Forgive me for giving solid advice.

Why not go to those sites and get settings then. I did that with my old Sanyo and it worked OK, but these JVCs are different it seems because they are capable of producing such a great image that it can be screwed up.

Anyway, I've deleted my apparently useless posts. It isn't like I sell calibration software, or anything. I am a hobbiest, like you, and I shared my experiences where I, just like you, asked for other people's settings, I got them, they made things worse, I shared that experience. I never stopped you from getting settings from anyone else.

Unsubscribing from this thread, flame away because I won't be back here. I have a home theater to enjoy instead of listening to people who just want what they think is the "free and easy" path even if it won't get them where they THINK it will.

I really was only trying to help.

Don't get upset. He simply doesn't understand the fundamental reason behind why a lot of us give that response. Trying someone else's settings would be no different than you going into the menu's and changing numbers arbitrarily and that is why people don't post their settings and don't recommend you to do this. There are simple things like setting the sharpness to zero (or sometimes 1 or -1) to reduce artifacts and making sure noise reduction also set very low or off. These "settings" are common sense to the enthusiast. If iris, contrast, brightness, CMS settings are something you're after then it's exactly like I said, you'd be just as well off by going into those menus and playing around with the numbers. Each unit/lamp hours, screen, and room add so much variation to getting correct color, brightness, and black level it's insane to try and think some arbitrary numbers someone gives you would be any better than you changing them randomly.

Unless you have the exact same room (color scheme), screen, screen size, projector (and I mean the SAME unit, not model), and the same amount of lamp hours would be the only time you'd want to use someone else's settings. Please don't be naive. Why do you think 99% of the posts in the calibration threads are people's results (charts) not what settings they used. Unless you meet this criteria, you using someone's settings and getting better results would be pure luck.
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post #162 of 173 Old 03-01-2013, 01:55 AM
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If you think about it - if there were some settings that made the image better for all projectors of a specific model, why wouldn't the manufacturer make them into a standard setting already from the start?
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post #163 of 173 Old 03-01-2013, 03:40 AM
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Some projectors are now starting fairly close to Rec709 and with a somewhat clean gray-scale in certain modes (relatively speaking) if you have a neutral screen and white or black walls on a newish lamp (under 500 hours), like the Benq w1070 and Sony hw50es. As the lamp ages though, they drift and eventually become more in need of calibration. The reason the majority of projectors are not able to come tuned closer to defaults is a whole bunch of reasons for it. For one, some manufacturers purposefully use color tables that make the modes brighter even in Cinema like modes because they know people look at brightness. Second, even if the projector came perfectly calibrated, it would still drift as the lamp ages and vary according to room walls and different screens, so they wouldn't be helping enough people by getting that last 10% of error out of the image. That said, some projectors have so much error in OOTB modes that there really is no excuse for the MFR's to ship them like that. In this last case, it's just a matter of oversight, lack of caring, sloppy post-production, or someone that worked on it thought a custom color scheme over-saturated looked better, etc...

As far as how much variance on new units of the same make and model, well I can say that DLP's tend to come in much closer, the ones I've seen multiple units of (mainly Mits hc4000) tend to have less than a 5% to 10% variance in calibration as long as the color uniformity between the units was close and the lamp was new. Whereas LCD and LCOS of the same make probably 20% or even a greater variance is common when going from unit to unit of the same model EVEN on a new lamp. DLP's also hold their calibrations better as the lamps age for some reason. Though still the problem quickly becomes that as the lamps age, they age differently on the color spectrum, so even though two DLP projectors might start out close right off the assembly line, they end up very far apart after 500-1000 hours.


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post #164 of 173 Old 03-02-2013, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

If you think about it - if there were some settings that made the image better for all projectors of a specific model, why wouldn't the manufacturer make them into a standard setting already from the start?

They do, it's called the picture presets: thx, film, cinema, dynamic, etc.. For example, I've read multiple reviews on the rs45 and they say that cinema is a good starting point since it measures closer to 6500k. This is all I was asking. For someone to share their own settings that worked best for them. If someone had asked me for my calibrated settings, I would have replied with the settings and said hey "these might not look as good on your machine because no 2 are the same, but good luck". I certainly would not have responded with a lecture and not even bother to even give my settings. But that's me, forget I asked. As for Seegs108, your latest response is just baffling, that's all I can say. At least with you unsubscribing to this thread, you'll have more time to police the illegal copies of movies people are posting on the screenshot thread.

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post #165 of 173 Old 03-02-2013, 05:19 PM
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Ouch. How is it baffling? You'd have to be pretty incompetent to not understand what I'm talking about. But that's right, you're still wanting peoples' settings even though people other than myself has said the same thing to you about why it doesn't work the way you think it does. It's luck.
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post #166 of 173 Old 03-02-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Ouch. How is it baffling? You'd have to be pretty incompetent to not understand what I'm talking about. But that's right, you're still wanting peoples' settings even though people other than myself has said the same thing to you about why it doesn't work the way you think it does. It's luck.

It doesn't work the way he thinks it does? And then you state the obvious. . . "It's luck."

You'd have to be pretty incompetent to think the guy doesn't already know this, or that he doesn't understand what you are talking about, or that he DOES NOT CARE what your opinion on the matter is. He asked for settings, there is no harm is just obliging him. I would have done so myself, but every time I reply to this thread I am away from home lol. Were not talking retirement investment portfolio advice, health advice, religion, etc.

Oh the humanity! He is going to try some random settings from another setup! (where is the face-palm emote icon when ya need it)
Trust me, I am a perfectionist bordering on OCD about my theater, home automation, house in general; but even I realize that in the end it should be fun and rewarding. So let the guy have fun, experiment a little, and learn a little through that experimentation.
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post #167 of 173 Old 03-02-2013, 08:01 PM
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Obviously he didn't. Why else would he ask? Others posted and told him why it doesn't work this way and he got upset. Just because I try to re-explain this somehow makes me the bad guy? Give me a break. There really are so many variables that go into calibrating a projector. It's so much different than something like an HDTV or LCD Monitor. The environment and screen play such huge rolls in how to adjust settings it's ridiculous and that isn't even taking into consideration how much different each unit is calibrated at the factory. So yes, it's obviously luck to plug in numbers and get better results compared to where you started. So if he knows this already, why ask for settings? It would be more logical to play around and making small changes yourself until you get the picture to a satisfying point.
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post #168 of 173 Old 03-02-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Obviously he didn't. Why else would he ask? Others posted and told him why it doesn't work this way and he got upset. Just because I try to re-explain this somehow makes me the bad guy? Give me a break. There really are so many variables that go into calibrating a projector. It's so much different than something like an HDTV or LCD Monitor. The environment and screen play such huge rolls in how to adjust settings it's ridiculous and that isn't even taking into consideration how much different each unit is calibrated at the factory. So yes, it's obviously luck to plug in numbers and get better results compared to where you started. So if he knows this already, why ask for settings? It would be more logical to play around and making small changes yourself until you get the picture to a satisfying point.

Because he isn't hung up on the variables like you are. You are repeating your self. How is playing around with settings yourself any different than asking for some examples? Bad guy? No; unable to relax on the issue of it does not matter at the end of the day all settings can be redone, tweaked, calibrated, etc.! You come across as if lives will be lost if he were to plug in some random settings.

I rather like the advice dispensed to you: Go police copyright infringement or something.
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post #169 of 173 Old 03-02-2013, 08:28 PM
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It isn't different and that's my point. Considering that taking someones settings and getting good results is luck I'm advocating for someone in this situation to go in an just tinker with the settings themselves. This way you'd probably get more satisfying results a lot faster without the wasted time of trying others' settings.
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post #170 of 173 Old 03-13-2013, 04:45 PM
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Thank you for helpful thread.
I have purchased the X30 projector several months ago and have just recently installed it.
It took time to finish my HT room.
Using my DTP-94 colorimeter installed on the tripod I am trying now to do the proper calibration with My Carada 96' Briliant White fixed frame screen.
Following nightfly85's guide from the first post and kal's post from here I have figured out something that worries me a bit.
In order to reach the desired 12-16 ftL readings the projector's iris should by closed to -15. It might be OK since the projector is installed in the light controlled room with black walls and ceiling in about 5 meters from the screen on the ceiling.
Running through the 10 IRE's patterns using the AVS 709 disc with PS3 I have realized that my out of the box calibration is very poor. The gamma drops from 2.0 to 1.7. The color temperature is about 6K.
In order to correct this I have started with 7K color temperature which according to the readings gives me 6500 and changed the gamma to custom with the 2.4 correction which drops now from 2.2 to 1.9.
Then I have started with the custom gamma white point correction 20IRE to 90IRE making it look flat at 2.2.
After that I have checked the 80IRE readings in order to correct the RGB GAINS (HighEnd) and stuck. There is too much green gain according to the colorimeter readings R91 / G103 / B87
I have to say that DTP-94 is my third colorimeter and I have used it to profile my displays for a photography work for a long time now and never had a reading problems. My first one was Spyder 2 and was too slow for me. The second was Eye-One Display LT and had a very significant color shift defect. So I assume that the colorimeter gives me correct data.
It is suggested not to touch the green gain since it changes the overall contrast. But I can not change the Blu/Red gains since they are at "0" mark on the projector and it allows me only to reduce the gain.
I have reduced the green gain because I have found no other solution. The green gain was so huge, that in order to make the RGB equal I had to reduce it to -45.
Then I have made the 30IRE readings and reduced a bit the RED and the BLUE offset. Reducing the GREEN gain a bit more with 80IRE I have achieved the desired 80/30 D65 point (very close to x=0.313 and y=0.329).
The the greys were remeasured and additional custom gamma corrections were applied for the Blue point to match the RGB levels.
Color was measured as well and slightly corrected.
Those are my before and after results:

Before:





After:
Projector Settings:
Contrast: -5
Brightness: 1
Color: 1
Tint: 0

Cutom Color:
G R : 0
G G : -48
G B: 0
O R: -11
O G: 0
O B: -16

Custom Gamma Correction 2.4
Color Space Standard
Lens Aperture -12
Lens Power Normal
HDMI Enhanced ( Full - Matched )
Color Space: RGB
Black Level: 0







The resulted picture is not vivid enough for my opinion. Though the dark scenes look better than the bright ones.
On the bright scenes I feel that I have not enough light. For example - the LOFTR sunny landscapes does not look like a sunny day, but more like an autumn.
However, I am not exactly happy with the results and would like to improve it with your help.

1. Is it normal I should reduce the green gain so much ?
Is there any other way correcting the RGB gains in my case ?
Is it the equipment ( projector/screen ) problem ?

2. Is it normal that the gamma and the color readings are so poor out of the box ?

3. Though I was precise in order to maximize the light reading positioning the colorimeter prior the readings, might it be the reading issue ?

Any additional suggestions are much appreciated.

I am sorry for my English grammar.
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post #171 of 173 Old 03-13-2013, 10:20 PM
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Try starting with Wide 1 or 2 under Color Space. Not much you can do with under-saturated color to begin with.

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post #172 of 173 Old 03-14-2013, 04:12 PM
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Thank You breadvan.

What about the gamma readings ?

May be it is not quite right to make such a significant corrections with the custom gamma white point ?
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post #173 of 173 Old 03-14-2013, 09:05 PM
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Try Gamma D and see if that improves bright scenes, it can slightly overblow the whites, but not that noticeable. The green is often too heavy on the gray-scale on the RS-45, that is a common issue. Gamma D (at least on my JVC) gives a punchier image that some might like better. I use it for some things depending on what I'm watching. One of my gamma's is Gamma D preset custom modded at IRE 5 to 25 (hence I lowered the gamma of 5 to 25 to reduce black crush, but left the rest about the same). That is just one of my "play" calibrations, if you want to calibrate accurately, the best way is to use the individual gamma points (RGB) to help the gray-scale, but you can use the White Gamma Point to correct the entire range all at once.


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