JVS DLA-RS45/X30 Calibration - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 173 Old 12-18-2011, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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This thread is for the discussion of the RS45 calibration hints, tips, and results for both 2D and 3D. PM me if you want your content or someone else's added to the first 3 posts of this thread, I will keep them updated as requested.

Tom Huffman posted an excellent initial post on the subject over the main RS45 thread:

Tom Huffman Calibration Post

In that post, he stated that Cinema mode, Standard color space, 65K color temp provided the best OOTB experience for his projector. Further more, it stated that perhaps a 6K color temp would provide an even more accurate color setting. That was not the case for me however and again illustrates that each and every projector is different and will need to be calibrated separately to achieve the best results. However, using either Tom's or my stated OOTB settings should provide a really good starting point; and for many, that may be good enough.

First my settings:
Dalite HP screen
Aperture: -15
Color, Brightness, Tint, Sharpness, etc.: 0
HCFR v2.1
Spyder 3 colormeter.
Using AVS HD rec 709 cal disk 2.0

OOTB Cinema, 65K temp, Standard Color Space, Gamma A:






OOTB Cinema, 6K temp, Standard Color space, Gamma Normal:






OOTB Normal mode, 65K temp, Standard Color, Gamma Normal:





So for me, in Cinema Mode, 6K vs 65K there is no contest as 65K is way better. Also, for my unit, there's little difference between Cinema 65K Standard Gamma Normal and Normal mode 65K Standard space normal gamma - they track really close to one another.

I decided to use Cinema, 65K temp, Standard space, Norm Gamma as my base however based upon Tom's post and did a quick cal and got this result:





Gamma is the only thing that still needs tweaking, but I am gonna wait until my bulb gets a little older, say over 20 hrs. This result was pretty easy to achieve.

I used the gains/offsets for "big brush" changes that would affect multiple IREs. I used the custom Gamma settings to fine tune RGB in specific IREs. More details on the exact process in the following post.

My current settings for the above cal:
Cinema Mode
Custom Color Temp: -5 Red Offset, -1 Red Gain - all others @ 0.
Custom Gamma. (not noting gamma specific settings as these are not universally applicable, but numerous changes were made to red/blue across the various IREs, mostly -red and +blue in the lower IREs and -red @ 95 IRE).
Standard Color Space.
Brightness, Tint, Contrast, etc. all set to 0.
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post #2 of 173 Old 12-18-2011, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's step by step guide to calibration (of really any projector) but with a JVC RS40/45/X3/X30 bias.

Attached is the word doc of the same that contains some screen shots of HCFR as well. I will updating the document to its RS45/X30 equivalent on the next and (hopefully) final calibration.

AVS-709 Disc 2
•\tColor HCFR 10% IRE step fields: Title 104
•\tColor HCFR 10% IRE step windows: Title 91
•\tColor HCFR 100% IRE Color fields: Title 9
•\tBasic Settings (black level/contrast): Title 39
•\tColor HCFR 100% Saturation: Title 27

1.\tDo Convergence
2.\tSet Iris – use basic plunge : set to -10 currently
3.\tPlace sensor and calibrate
3.1.\tMaximize Y reading in placements
4.\tStart with Cinema, Standard Space, 65K temp, Gamma Normal – measure grey & color
4.1.\tGamma on Normal? - measure grey (closer to 2.1 for me)
4.2.\tColor space to Normal? - measure grey (closest to 2.2 for me)
5.\tAdjust black level & contrast - measure grey & color
6.\tGreyScale Calibration:
6.1.\tUse 80/30% or 90/30% IRE fields
6.2.\t If 100% or other IRE needs minor work, use gamma RGB controls to tweak
•\t Never use all three gain controls (will squash contrast)
•\t Don't increase offsets (will raise black level)\t
•\t Don't mess with green, use blue/red to get match green
6.3.\tUse gains first, with 90/80% IRE ("Complete Program Menu" -> "Advanced Video Test Patterns" -> 1080p or 720p -> "Window 80% w/ PLUGE")
6.4.\tenable the "cont readings" option and adjust the gains until the RGB levels are @ 100% or very close
6.5.\tThe sensor will now start taking x, y, and Y readings and report them back every few seconds. You should see the data in the "Selected Color" window in the lower left.
6.6.\tBefore getting all the way to 100%, go down and pull down RB offsets. Not as much gain will be needed if some offset is used as well and vice-versa. Go back and forth between gain and offset adjustment to try to use minimal changes to get 100% @ 30/40 and 80/90 IRE.
6.7.\tOnce all three are close to 100% you should be close to the D65 point (x=0.313 and y=0.329).
6.8.\t Use offsets to adjust the 30/40% IRE
6.8.1.1.\t until all three RGB Level bars are at 100% or very close.
6.9.\tGo back and check 80% IRE and then 30%, rinse, repeat.
6.10.\tRe-measure our entire greyscale from 0 to 100 IRE - measure grey

•\tAdjusting RGB Offsets does not have much of an effect on readings above 50 IRE so it will not affect 80 IRE much. Therefore adjusting RGB Offsets usually does not require an adjustment of RGB Gains to compensate.
•\tAdjusting RGB Gain has a *large* affect across the entire greyscale. Adjusting RGB Gain will require an adjustment to RGB Offset to compensate. This is why we adjust the RGB Gain first.
•\tThe red and blue levels interact: Lowering one raises the other and vice versa. In fact, as you've probably noticed, everything affects everything!
•\tIf you're keeping your eye on the x/y readings, you'll note that the red controls affect x while the blue controls affect y.
•\tMake adjustments slowly to allow sensor to adjust
•\tIf you have to sacrifice somewhere, sacrifice the 70-100 IRE range as most of the content is under that range.
•\tIf your greys at 10 and 20 IRE look reasonably grey and 30 IRE measures close to D65 then good enough!
•\tif you find one of the colours dropping off significantly above 80 IRE, try reducing your contrast to see if the problem resolves itself.
•\tDelta E <=3 Great; <=10 very good;

7.\tRedo brightness & contrast
7.1.\tFor contrast we want to ensure that we're still within the expected ftL range (12-16 ftL)
7.2.\tFor brightness you want to make sure that you're not losing details into black (black crush due to brightness set too low), or that the colour black now appears grey (brightness set too high). You may have to change brightness by a notch or two at most.
7.3.\tRepeat Step 5.
8.\tColorHCFR has a great feature to allow you to compare data from two files. By marking one set of data as the "reference measure", all other sets will be compared against that reference. To do this simply load your before and after data files, select the before file in the "Window" menu, and click on the "Reference Measure".
9.\tAdjust Gamma
9.1.\tAdjust gamma RGB controls to get a flat color response for lumenince
9.2.\tRe-check black level/constrast
9.3.\tRe-check grey scale
10.\tAdjusting the colour control
10.1.\tstart taking continuous xyY readings by clicking on the green arrow icon. Target red and hope that other colors follow along…
10.2.\tCue up your AVS HD 709 test disc and skip to the 100% white window pattern by selecting "10% Grayscale" -> "100% Gray window". 100% means that the window is at 100 IRE. Write down the Y (Luminance or brightness) .
10.3.\t Skip to the 100% Red window pattern by selecting "100% Saturated Colors" -> "100% Red window".
10.4.\t Adjust the colour control on your display until the Y reading is 21% of the 100% white window reading measured earlier. For example, if the Y value earlier was 39.012 as seen above, then 21% would be 39.012 x 0.21 = 8.193.
10.5.\t
11.\tAdjusting the tint control
11.1.\tSince the tint control affects all three secondary colours we pick one (cyan in our case) and adjust to that and hope that the others follow along. A comprehensive colour management system (CMS) is required to set all three secondaries correctly.
11.2.\tSet your display's tint setting to the midpoint (default) setting.
11.3.\tEnsure that ColorHCFR is still in continuous read mode. If not, click on the green arrow icon again.
11.4.\tCue up your AVS HD 709 test disc and skip to the 100% Cyan window pattern by selecting "100% Saturated Colors" -> "100% Cyan window".
11.5.\tWe want to try and achieve an x/y reading as close to perfect as possible for the colour Cyan based on what colour space you chose earlier in this guide. If you can't remember, check the "Advanced -> Preferences" menu option and click on the "References" tab.
11.6.\t
The SDTV - REC 601 (NTSC) cyan target is x=0.231 / y=0.326
The HDTV - REC 709 cyan target is x=0.225 / y=0.329

Note that the Cyan points for the three different colour spaces are very close to one another. The DeltaE is less than 5 between any two of these points. Getting close to any of these will result is what we can consider a pretty accurate cyan secondary. If you had to adjust the tint considerably away from the midpoint to have it read close to accurate however, there's a good chance that the other two secondaries (magenta and yellow) will be off. The targets for magenta and yellow are:

For PAL/SECAM the magenta target is x=0.327 / y=0.157 and the yellow target is x=0.417 / y=0.502
For SDTV - REC 601 (NTSC) the magenta target is x=0.314 / y=0.161 and the yellow target is x=0.421 / y=0.507
For HDTV - REC 709 the magenta target is x=0.321 / y=0.154 and the yellow target is x=0.419 / y=0.504
Measuring primaries and secondaries:
1.\tThe ColorHCFR software will now ask you to display primary and secondary (100% saturated) colours, one at a time, pausing at each one so that the sensor can take a reading. 100% saturated means that the brightness of the colour must be 100IRE or completely 'on'.
2.\tSimilar to measuring greyscale, we hope to achieve a DeltaE for all six primary and secondary measurements of 10 or less with 3 being even better. In our Barco Cine 8 Onyx projector example you can see from our results above that all values are under 10 so we're happy!
3.\tPay more attention to the DeltaE numbers than what you see on the CIE diagram until you become accustomed to reading a CIE diagram.
4.\tHow are your secondary values? Is the cyan DeltaE much lower than the magenta and yellow DeltaE? If yes, we suggest jumping back to STEP 8.3 and re-adjusting your tint control to try and even out the error between the three secondaries.

 

RS40- Calibration.zip 163.4287109375k . file
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post #3 of 173 Old 12-18-2011, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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This post reserved for professional and user calibration re-posts, results, etc. Maybe one will work for you?

User
-----
rwestley's post/results; using Chromapure

jcastle chromapure/ipro 3 radiance mini CMS
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post #4 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 08:34 AM
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I have seen a few people ask for a thread like this, and now no one is interested?
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post #5 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 09:00 AM
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I think the first 2 posts are an excellent start to a thread like this. It'll just take a bit to get more posters, many haven't started calibrating that much yet.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #6 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 09:33 AM
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This is awesome and it certainly makes me want to actually calibrate everything. As a total novice going into this realistically how many hours would I be looking at to do something like this?
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post #7 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 09:35 AM
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Just for calibration and gray-scale, I think less than 6 hours even for a new person, depends on how good you are at skim-interpreting the calibration for dummies guide. Once you've learned how to do gray-scale, most projectors it can be done in just a matter of 30 minutes or so, depends though.

The eye-one LT for $120 is a good starter meter for doing just gamma and gray scale, since the RS-45 doesn't have a CMS with a multi-point color gamut adjustment function.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #8 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpepling View Post

This is awesome and it certainly makes me want to actually calibrate everything. As a total novice going into this realistically how many hours would I be looking at to do something like this?

Do the measurements and the initial cal took me about 2 hours. Once I re-familiarized myself with the process, it typically takes around an hour or less. Re-calibrations typically only take 1/2 or less.

Not all steps are required. The RS 40/45/x3/x30 really do put out a very acceptable and accurate picture on one of the above default settings.
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post #9 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Just for calibration and gray-scale, I think less than 6 hours even for a new person, depends on how good you are at skim-interpreting the calibration for dummies guide. Once you've learned how to do gray-scale, most projectors it can be done in just a matter of 30 minutes or so, depends though.

The eye-one LT for $120 is a good starter meter for doing just gamma and gray scale, since the RS-45 doesn't have a CMS with a multi-point color gamut adjustment function.

I've owned several LT's, each had it's issues. So far the Spyder 3 (TV edition for ~$80) has been more accurate for me.

Of course, in either case, in the lower IREs, neither is very good.

If I had the cash to spend I'd get ChromaPure and a calibrated LT One or 3 from them. For the occasional calibrator I think it's a good option. Now if I was spending $5K+ on a PJ, well, spending $500 on a good meter and software wouldn't be that out of order for me.

However, HCFR is free, the spyder 3 is cheap and really did a good job IMHO.
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post #10 of 173 Old 12-20-2011, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gleave View Post

I have seen a few people ask for a thread like this, and now no one is interested?

Interested...YES! Intimidated, also, YES! I'm still setting up my RS-45 and will review this post and ask questions as I understand how to work my way down the rabbit hole. I suspect it's easier for those of you who have pursued this as a profession or avocation over several years but the knowledge required to respond cogently to a post like this is huge. I'm still working my way through the RS-45 manual and it's much less challenging than the ideas posted here. When I think I can ask a good question, I will. Until then, I'll continue to just read but never take that as a sign of disinterest.
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post #11 of 173 Old 12-21-2011, 01:37 AM
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nightfly85: It would be interesting to see the luminance values of the colors. I´ve seen a couple of reviews of the RS45 which have shown quite large luminance errors, especially in blue. What were the dE during your calibration?
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post #12 of 173 Old 12-21-2011, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santafe2 View Post

Interested...YES! Intimidated, also, YES! I'm still setting up my RS-45 and will review this post and ask questions as I understand how to work my way down the rabbit hole.

Google calibration for dummies, they were just posting some very quick tips for people that already have calibrated before. The calibration for dummies guide will show you the simple way to calibrate gray scale and gamma, it isn't as complex as it first appears.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #13 of 173 Old 12-21-2011, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfly85 View Post

However, HCFR is free, the spyder 3 is cheap and really did a good job IMHO.

I found the Spyder(s) rather inaccurate when I had Ken Whitcomb calibrate my projector with the real stuff. Since it was of little help or perhaps my lack of ability I sold it.
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post #14 of 173 Old 12-21-2011, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I found the Spyder(s) rather inaccurate when I had Ken Whitcomb calibrate my projector with the real stuff. Since it was of little help or perhaps my lack of ability I sold it.

Perhaps that was the spyder 2? And if so, yes, they sucked. Supposedly the Spyder 3 is better. And all I can say in my limited experience as I've the only other meter I've owned is the LT and they simply could note measure green very well, or in one case, Red. Using them produced obvious issues in the cals and on screen. Not so far with the spyder 3 - every things "looks good" so far. A brief example: when am adjusting the gamma RGB values, I am making very small tweaks, adding/subtracting 1 from the current value. The spyder 3 was able to detect this small changes. None of my eye one LTs could or if it did, it sent another measure way off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusSwe View Post

nightfly85: It would be interesting to see the luminance values of the colors. I´ve seen a couple of reviews of the RS45 which have shown quite large luminance errors, especially in blue. What were the dE during your calibration?

Here's the luminance graph for my current calibration. Looks pretty good to me. The dE are in the graph in post one, but now are all close to 2 or under. I expect to get them all under 2 on the next run.

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post #15 of 173 Old 12-21-2011, 06:58 PM
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Thanks for starting this thread. I will post my results tomorrow.
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Tom Huffman (a designer of calibration software) has always said the non-calibrated eye-one's are more accurate than the non-calibrated Spyder3's by quite a bit.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #17 of 173 Old 12-22-2011, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfly85 View Post

Here's the luminance graph for my current calibration. Looks pretty good to me. The dE are in the graph in post one, but now are all close to 2 or under. I expect to get them all under 2 on the next run.


That graph only shows the greyscale, not the colors themselves. When you measure the colors for the CIE chart, you should also get the luminance values for the primary and secondary colors. Those are the ones I think it would be interesting to see.

Even though the CIE chart looks good, it doesn't tell the whole story. It only shows saturation and hue, but doesn't include luminance.
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post #18 of 173 Old 12-22-2011, 06:34 AM
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Has anyone experimented with the autocal functions in Calman and Chromapure software for the RS45. I'm curious as to just how perefect you get the RS45 with these autocals?
I understand you can only be as accurate as the probe used but I'm more curious as to what the autocal is capable of adjusting in the RS45 considering it doesn't have a CMS.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

Has anyone experimented with the autocal functions in Calman and Chromapure software for the RS45. I'm curious as to just how perefect you get the RS45 with these autocals?
I understand you can only be as accurate as the probe used but I'm more curious as to what the autocal is capable of adjusting in the RS45 considering it doesn't have a CMS.

I've just ordered CalMan4 DIY package. I asked the same question off the salesperson I talked to and was told that AutoCal does not work with the RS45. SpectraCal site mentions the rs40/50/60 as being supported so I assumed that rs45 would be tpp.

So not sure what is right here. At the moment, didn't buy it (it is another $200 cost). I'll try the "manual" approach first since part of my goal of making the investement is to learn the process.
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post #20 of 173 Old 12-23-2011, 05:22 AM
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autocal function with radiance mini and rs45 did a pretty good job. Resulting picture MUCH better than any of my presets. Gamma and grayscale were much improved. It had trouble getting the red and cyan primaries spot on. FYI, I have no calibration experience. I will try some of the advice in this thread and see how things improve.
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post #21 of 173 Old 12-23-2011, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcastle View Post

autocal function with radiance mini and rs45 did a pretty good job. Resulting picture MUCH better than any of my presets. Gamma and grayscale were much improved. It had trouble getting the red and cyan primaries spot on. FYI, I have no calibration experience. I will try some of the advice in this thread and see how things improve.

Which software and meter did you use?

Can you post your results before and after?


TIA!
____
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post #22 of 173 Old 12-23-2011, 11:36 AM
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chromapure with display 3 pro. I will see if I saved the reports. since the bulb was so fresh, I may have trashed them.
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post #23 of 173 Old 12-23-2011, 02:49 PM
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I used Chromapure with a Dvdo-Iscan CMS. in DUO These are part of the results. Cinema mode,standard The settings I used were out of the box Cinema mode color space standard. Tom H. from ChromaPure used similar settings when he calibrated the JVC 45. He did not use the CMS in the DVDO-Iscan which I did use. The PDF attached contains the full report. Tom thought the results were good.
LL
LL
LL
LL

 

calibration dec jvc DEC 2.pdf 269.8544921875k . file
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post #24 of 173 Old 12-23-2011, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I used Chromapure with a Dvdo-Iscan. These are part of the results. Cinema mode,standard

Include your setting to achieve those results. I'll link your post up above.
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post #25 of 173 Old 12-24-2011, 07:53 AM
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here's the initial results using a radiance mini 3d CMS. I selected user 1 profile, wide color space. I hadn't seen the Tom H post when I did this last week. I will redo it this weekend using cinema and standard color space. I've been waiting to hit the 50hr mark before I invested too much time and effort into the calibration.

This pdf may provide information on how the rs45 performs out of the box, but I wouldn't use this for much more than that.
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post #26 of 173 Old 12-24-2011, 08:07 AM
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post #27 of 173 Old 12-24-2011, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfly85 View Post

Include your setting to achieve those results. I'll link your post up above.

Thanks for starting this Thread . Might I suggest some sort of "standard Format" for reporting one's results ? If we had a List of all the potential adjustments and Settings then everyone would know what to report and it would be easier for everyone else to compare results . We might even be able to cut and paste into a Spreadsheet to see how Calibrations compare . Just a suggestion .

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post #28 of 173 Old 12-24-2011, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jcastle View Post

here's the files

I know you said this was for low lamp hours, but for your next calibration, might be worth looking into some suggestions:

I think that you might be 'running out' of a colour at high IREs: The dE of 7 for white suggests that you're using 100% patterns for you gamut measures too. The gamma going high at the top end suggests some sort of runout too.

I'd put up a 100IRE pattern while you measure the white balance in real time and slightly lower the main contrast one click at a time to see if the white balance at 100IRE improves: If for example you are running out of red, your dE will increase at 100IRE, compared to your 90 IRE result (even if 90 IRE is 0dE). This is because the maximum output of your 'weak' colour is less than the 100IRE level, so the other two colours 'over power' the white balance at the higher level. By lowering the main contrast you will find a point that the red run out (or green or blue of course) occurs, so you can minimise the 100 IRE dE and your gamma response will look better too.

It might also be better to measure and adjust (using the limited controls available) the colour gamut using 75% patterns.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful, it's quite late in the UK now and I could be rambling.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #29 of 173 Old 12-24-2011, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcastle View Post

here's the initial results using a radiance mini 3d CMS. I selected user 1 profile, wide color space. I hadn't seen the Tom H post when I did this last week. I will redo it this weekend using cinema and standard color space. I've been waiting to hit the 50hr mark before I invested too much time and effort into the calibration.

This pdf may provide information on how the rs45 performs out of the box, but I wouldn't use this for much more than that.

Before I read Tom's post I used natural mode and the results were similar to yours. Using cinema mode and standard color space the results got much better. I would love to see your results when you follow Tom's suggestions and calibrate again.
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post #30 of 173 Old 12-25-2011, 01:06 AM
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I know this is a rs45 cal thread but I have a 55 and think I might be doing something I'm a total newbie to calibrating but think I have done a decent job so far I can already tell a huge difference and never realized how much better PQ could get. All I have calibrated so far is my greyscale and all de values are less than three but I can't seem to get my gamma in check I have tried all presets and my gamma at 0ire will start at 2.2 then steadily rise by the time I get to 50 ire I'm already above 3 and off the chart any explanation, help, or info would be great maybe I'm making some rookie mistake so this is why I'm asking. I'm really enjoying learning I have spent almost two full days tweaking very addicting lol.
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