Let's compare the Epson 5010, Sony HW30 and JVC RS45 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 54 Old 12-28-2011, 03:14 PM
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Not much to agonize about honestly, most of the differences in each projector are now fairly clear.

RS-45 = best blacks of course, very good best mode brightness, ghosting in 3D, bareable for some, bothersome for most, watchable for all (in certain content), Lens Memory and fully motorized controls, slightly more gaming lag

Sony HW30 and Epson 5010 = Best "I can do everything" projector and run some hardcore 3D without any really visible ghosting, NO motorized controls and NO lens memory

Panny 7000 = Has Lens memory but no full motorized controls. Good 3D, average black levels (good but not great), 2D probably slightly behind the others, lowest gaming lag of the bunch, but also has the least brightness in best mode.

When to buy the JVC?
When your primary goal is darker blacks and some of the best overall 2D picture for movies, but not the best in 3D.

When to buy the Sony HW30 or Epson 5010?
When your primary goal is the best all-around projector, but you do NOT need lens memory, but you do want good bright scenes, 3D, decent dark scenes, etc...

When to buy the Panny 7000?
When your main concern is gaming lag or lens memory, still want good 3D, want an IRIS in 3D mode, but are willing to sacrifice a bit of 2D quality to do so. Works best for smaller screens due to lower best mode brightness.


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post #32 of 54 Old 12-28-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Not much to agonize about honestly, most of the differences in each projector are now fairly clear.

You are right, no single PJ trumps all. I took the HW30, the blacks are black enough and there is no bulb drama. I have yet to find a fault with the motion handling on anything I've watched, and the 3D is great fun.

None of these machines are a punishment, and all of them will be surpassed in two years probably by cheaper PJs.

When I bought my Panny 720p five years ago, projectors with the levels of performance these projectors are fielding either did not or barely existed, and only then at princely prices.

Now I am shopping for new AV receiver or separates.

Hey Mike, what's in the AVS store in that category?
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post #33 of 54 Old 12-29-2011, 05:38 PM
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Agonizing is a great way to describe it. Do the HW30 and/or HW90 have lens memory (forgive me if this was covered)? Does either unit offer internal scaling for 2.35:1 applications?
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post #34 of 54 Old 12-29-2011, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasonable Doubt View Post

You are right, no single PJ trumps all. I took the HW30, the blacks are black enough and there is no bulb drama. I have yet to find a fault with the motion handling on anything I've watched, and the 3D is great fun.

None of these machines are a punishment, and all of them will be surpassed in two years probably by cheaper PJs.

When I bought my Panny 720p five years ago, projectors with the levels of performance these projectors are fielding either did not or barely existed, and only then at princely prices.

Now I am shopping for new AV receiver or separates.

Hey Mike, what's in the AVS store in that category?

We have several Denons in stock. Give us a call for pricing.

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post #35 of 54 Old 12-29-2011, 06:14 PM
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It should also be mentioned that the best (2) projectors for gaming out of this bunch are most likely the Sony hw30 and Panny 7000, not just the Panny 7000 like many of us originally thought.

This is if you are basing gaming on LAG times, because the Sony hw30 was measured around 30ms by Zombie in another thread, I don't know what the Panny was, but I think around the same (30-40 maybe).

The Epson and JVC is 80ms. Personally though, unless you play online games competitively, any of them will do good in gaming, but DLP will do better due to slightly cleaner motion at 60hz, and DLP (IMHO) does render low-resolution textures (which games have an abundance of) with a bit more smooth punch and POP so to speak, now that is just my opinion. Now when I say low-res textures, I don't mean because the game was made in 1920x1080, I am talking about polygonal counts and anti-alising and all that other stuff that in games they have to sacrifice, even in PC games somewhat because of video card limitations.


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post #36 of 54 Old 12-30-2011, 12:04 PM
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Here's a nice endorsement for the Epson from a guy (Conan48) whose owned some of the best. He's certainly got me considering the Epson!

"Now that I've had a few days with the 5010, I can post some more detailed impressions. I'll start with 3D:

This is the best 3D projector I've seen and I've tested the Acer 5360, Sony VW90, JVC X7, and JVC X70. I've also owned/seen panasonic VT20 plasma, and Sony HX929 LCD.

There is VERY little ghosting. I tried all the torture clips from Ghosts of Pantagoria, Despicable me, Grand Canyon, Ultimate Gs, etc. Most scenes have no ghosting whatsoever while some have very faint ghosting. It's miles ahead of the JVC and Sony and even the panny plasma. I'll put it this way. I returned my Sony HMD after I got the Epson Ghosting I would say is a non issue with this projector. Jason, can you post time stamps from your clips and I can post the exact same pics for comparison.

The brightness is really good. It's so bright in dynamic mode that it's brighter then I would normally watch in 2D eco mode with the Epson! You do sacrifice colour accuracy in Dynamic mode but cinema 3D is also quite bright but with more accurate colour.

Motion and sharpness look great in 3D, but I think the JVC X70 has the edge in 3D colour and sharpness. It's too bad the JVC has way too much ghosting or it could have been a contender.

On the negative side. The Epson is pretty damn loud in high lamp mode. I don't really notice it after a few minutes as while it is loud, it doesn't have an annoying hum, buzz, or other distracting sound.

Still, the Acer has NO ghosting, but the Epson is as close as it gets to a great 3D picture from a non DLP projector that I"ve seen.

The 2D is also pretty damn amazing, even after coming from an X70. I'll post 2D impressions tomorrow."
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post #37 of 54 Old 12-30-2011, 02:03 PM
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Now that I've seen all three, I have to say across a range of uses there is no clear winner. I did my comparison after buying the HW30, but I can say that I like all three. It gets to the point where one projector does well on certain scenes while others do better on something else.

When I started this project I had no intention of using 3D, but I've seen enough good setups that dang it, I gotta have it. Of course that means a new BluRay, new receiver, new cables, and after all that probably a new marriage, or at least a lot of counseling.

These are great times for home theater enthusiasts.
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post #38 of 54 Old 12-30-2011, 07:54 PM
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Sorry for the dup post but this is probably a better thread to post my totally newbie comments....

I just demo'd the 6010 at my local HT store and all I can say is WOW! I've made my choice and it will be the 6010.

This thing is bright as hell (I almost thought I was looking at a 100 inch plasma screen on the wall!...seriously even my wife was amazed) and killer 3D!, also super bright and no ghosting that I could see on any Captain America scenes. Even with the bright ambient lighting of the store it rocked - approx 14x16 room with a double glass door on the side near the screen. I was quite excited about the performance with ambient lighting because my room not a dedicated theater, more of an entertainment room, and my wife likes to have the fireplace going sometimes during a movie, so this performance means a lot to me.

I had demo'd the RS45 and HW30 at other stores, albeit not at the same time, but to these virgin eyes the 6010 really set itself apart, and made an huge first impression. So critical analysis aside, I really liked what I saw....yea the fan is somewhat noticeable in normal mode, and only on quiet dialog scenes (still, what was Epson thinking!!!!), however 98% of my viewing will be in 2d and the delta in Eco mode is worth the silent fan (absolutely dead silent in eco mode) and when I do watch a 3D flick I can deal with it (actually my wife didn't hear a thing till I told the sales guy to turn down the volume all the way and switch between modes).

I don't know much about interpolation or response times but I looked at scenes that were power packed action and I saw no jitter or motion blur. Colors and contrast were excellent, not over saturated and bright levels were not clipped. Skin tones looked natural and soft, yet sharp and detailed. I am a pro photographer so one thing I can report with authority is brightness levels and color balance - I could not see a need to have this projector calibrated but I guess that will mean more once I get in installed at my home.

I wanted to see a real dark produced flick such a Potter or Underworld movie but we were short on time...there were some dark scenes on CA that I was quite impressed with and, of all the things I was most concerned with after reading the comparisons here, I could not see any issues at dark levels. Transitions from bright to dark areas were very good IMO. I saw no pixelization.

Anyway as I said I am not a videophile, however I am very sure this will be an excellent first project for my needs and room size. I will report first light but first I need to get the drywall finished and flooring down!

Thx all for the posts and analysis - first rate!

Chris Hetlage
http://imagingthecosmos.com

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post #39 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 02:38 PM
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I too am agonizing over my projector selection....will be following this thread closely. Does the 6010 offer any advantages over the 5010, i.e fan noise seems to be an issue (I see that someone returned theirs due to the noise levels - not good IMO...)

I had a chance to spend some time with a 6010 yesterday -- yikes what a picture. And you won't need an exorcist to enjoy 3D -- no ghosts at all.

I would say the HW30 is more film like and depending on the scene more 'real looking'. But there is nothing wrong with what the 6010 puts on the wall.

And the price point is good.

Happy Hunting.
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post #40 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 04:58 PM
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Well....now I'm more confused....the RS45 or the 5010!? Mix of sports and movies....throw in a little 3D. Lighting controlled room, but will definitely have ambient light when watching football with friends.

Sounds like I really can't go wrong with either, but I have a bit of concern of the brightness of the RS45 and how it will handle sports.....

Maybe I'll just flip a lucky coin.
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post #41 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nychog View Post

Well....now I'm more confused....the RS45 or the 5010!? Mix of sports and movies....throw in a little 3D. Lighting controlled room, but will definitely have ambient light when watching football with friends.

Sounds like I really can't go wrong with either, but I have a bit of concern of the brightness of the RS45 and how it will handle sports.....

Maybe I'll just flip a lucky coin.

If you're big on 3D, I'm sure the Epson would be a better fit. The RS40 I viewed today had terrible ghosting. Movies look great on it. Sports look fine as well.
The RS45 isn't dim by any means. It's not going to torch the screen like the 5010 will either. With moderate ambient light the RS45 is fine for viewing sports.

The RS45 is geared more towards 2D movies. Good luck with your hunt.

Personally if I want great 3D, I'd just buy a Mits 92 inch DLP TV and call it a day.
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post #42 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nychog View Post

Well....now I'm more confused....the RS45 or the 5010!? Mix of sports and movies....throw in a little 3D. Lighting controlled room, but will definitely have ambient light when watching football with friends.

Sounds like I really can't go wrong with either, but I have a bit of concern of the brightness of the RS45 and how it will handle sports.....

Maybe I'll just flip a lucky coin.

I saw the 6010 yesterday -- outstanding machine. With only 30 minutes to audition I can't give a deep analysis, but as far as curb appeal the thing is stunning. Check it out.

Can anyone comment -- could the RS45's film like rendering come from the 80ms vs 30ms? On the surface it seems that the lag would tend to blend frames, softening the edge (the impression, not the actual image).
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post #43 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 05:39 PM
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No, the film look is related to the higher pixel fill of LCOS and the processing (or sometimes lack of), any motion blur is related to pixel response time and pulldown modes and frame interpolation. FI can help the perception of motion blur to some, but it doesn't actually get rid of it at the pixel response level. Faster panels, pixel response, etc... DLP is best for motion.

I think people are being too quick to compare the JVC, it really shines on certain film content like Tree of Life. As a film enthusiast, it handles everything I need it to great. I have been comparing projectors for 3 years or so on and off, for me the RS-45 is the sub $3500 image nirvana I have been searching for all this time. I am very skeptical of LCD competing with the JVC (I know it can seem to POP more on some content, but it's a digital sharpening effect is what you are probably seeing, and a little ANSI contrast). I understand some will see it differently, but it's really partly a matter of learning how to see it more like a purist, even though I'm not a purist.

I do like LCD for TV and general movies, but for true masterpieces of film, I am almost certain I would prefer the JVC every time. Also, the JVC is anything but soft, it is sharp as sharp can be. It does not have that older soft film look I've seen on older LCOS.

The RS-45 gives me the most realistic picture I've ever seen, the window effect completely when the camera work is done right, but you just have to learn how to let your eyes see the REALISM of the image instead of the enhancements of processing. The RS-45 is everything I had hoped for (except the bright corners, but that's not a huge deal honestly).


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post #44 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

... I am very skeptical of LCD competing with the JVC (I know it can seem to POP more on some content, but it's a digital sharpening effect is what you are probably seeing, and a little ANSI contrast).

What's the logic behind an LCD having better ANSI contrast? I'd think ANSI contrast shows native contrast and the LCoS would be superior...
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post #45 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 05:51 PM
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ANSI contrast is a long and controversial topic. Ansi contrast and Native On/Off contrast are basically an opposite way of measuring contrast. ANSI uses a checkerboard pattern which gives an idea of the amount of intrascene contrast in a bright image (think a big black rock next to the whitewash of the ocean at noon, that is ANSI contrast helping).

Native On/Off Contrast mostly applies in darker scenes, but in many movies only a small percentage of scenes are actually taking advantage of all that much ANSI IMHO, you don't need full black scenes to see NATIVE contrast like some perceive it to be. It actually starts helping slightly even before evening time brightness, but it really runs away in dark scenes of course.

The main controversy in ANSI contrast is the following:

Most peoples rooms (although not all) are not able to get over 100:1 to 200:1 ANSI contrast due to any room reflections, you really need a really near-perfect bat-cave to be able to take advantage of ANSI values higher than that. That said, quite a few of us in AVS do have rooms good enough to get that ultra-high ANSI, and the JVC peaks at around 300:1 I'm guessing. I really think the sharpening effect and some differences in the way the projectors handle light are partly to blame, not just the ANSI contrast, although I am sure it all comes together.

One of my main complaints with film is too many blown contrast shots, poor and cheap camera work. Most of the time it is because of the budget and they couldn't redo the shot, but the JVC will be a tiny bit more sensitive to these bad camera shots than LCD or DLP sometimes. If you get masterful camera work, then IMO you get the best image from the JVC (just my opinion).

After being a huge DLP fan for all these years (and I still am), I tend to think the LCOS look is a new and fresh start to my movies, and there are very very few movies I would pick any of the previous projectors I have seen over the JVC.


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post #46 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 05:52 PM
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coderguy,

When evaluating a specific example of RS45 projector what should one do to fully optimize the evaluation?

I presume there would be convergence and bright corner severity to check. What other negative anomalies should one look for with these projectors to make sure you have a good one?

Also what is the best way to check for convergence? Burn the AVSHD 709 to a disc and use the D2- Single Black Pixel Grid? Get the Disney WOW disc?

Thanks!


...Glenn
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post #47 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 06:15 PM
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Convergence and the white smearing of the lines or smeared text...

Also, just to be clear, the above is only my opinion, so I'm not saying my opinion is better than anyone elses, I do agree the JVC isn't the all-in-one projector of the Epson or Sony.


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post #48 of 54 Old 12-31-2011, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
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If you're big on 3D, I'm sure the Epson would be a better fit. The RS40 I viewed today had terrible ghosting. Movies look great on it. Sports look fine as well.
The RS45 isn't dim by any means. It's not going to torch the screen like the 5010 will either. With moderate ambient light the RS45 is fine for viewing sports.

The RS45 is geared more towards 2D movies. Good luck with your hunt.

Personally if I want great 3D, I'd just buy a Mits 92 inch DLP TV and call it a day.

Thanks!!

3D would be the least viewed....Movies and sports (football, predominantly)would dominate the time spent in the room. The JVC intrigues me alot....just a little concerned about the brightness and shadowing (or whatever it's called) with sports and fast-action scenes. Unfortunately, I don't have anywhere to demo much of anything other than 'super' cheap projectors.
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post #49 of 54 Old 01-16-2012, 10:33 PM
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I absolutely do not agree with convergence, MadMyers: There have been extremely limited complaints on this problem with the Sony, whereas there have been lots and lots of complaints for convergence issues with the epsons now and in the past (2 pixel errors etc.)!. Also, AVS (Jason had said) had interrupted the epsons in the past due to the large number of returns... There is a HUGE problem of quality control with the Epsons!
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post #50 of 54 Old 01-16-2012, 10:58 PM
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The Sony and JVC have fewer convergence issues, the JVC has a better lens with better focus uniformity than the other two IMO, but this would probably only be noticed on certain types of video content like HD documentaries and scenery where sharpness differences are easy to spot, maybe a bit in gaming, but the Sony has less gaming lag so a trade-off either way.

Also of course how much softer the Sony appears compared to the JVC or Epson will be partly convergence luck as well. Epsons do generally have more convergence issues on average by luck of draw, but it's fairly easy to exchange it and I'm assuming the convergence correction on the Epson will help somewhat.

IMHO after reading all the posts in this forum, the JVC's on average are the sharpest. There have been a few people with convergence or smearing issues on the JVC, but overall most testers in this forum that have compared the three projectors have admitted the JVC is a bit sharper. My JVC is sharper than even some DLP's as I have near perfect convergence.


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post #51 of 54 Old 01-17-2012, 07:40 AM
 
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You can not flip a coin if you want to make a random selection between two of these unless you use a certified coin and a certified coin flipper. It is imperative that over a large number of flips, the totals are very close to a 50/50 or your selection process by the mere assignment of one projector to the side of the coin if there appears to be a statistical bias. All this ugliness could be avoided if you let a random number generator loaded on your lap top make the choice. You do not even need a USB to serial adapter hooked up to your computer to do this. If you need a free copy of a random number generator, do a google search. And good luck.
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post #52 of 54 Old 01-24-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I've updated the data in the first post

1) made some corrections
2) added some new fields

There are notes where I made changes.

I also remove the very basic "counts" that added up the winners. I'll post a slightly more advanced version shortly.

... Altan
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post #53 of 54 Old 01-24-2012, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I made an excel with all this info. Each category, such as "Gaming" or "MAX-Bright" was assigned an "importance" between 0 and 20. I then rated, to the best of my ability, each of the projectors on a scale from -2 to 2. Each rating is scaled per the importance.

Note: some categories had 0 importance, such as "STANDBY" and "LAN".

With my values...

1) RS45 got a 70.3%
2) 5010 got a 72.3%
3) HW30 got a 86.7%

Obviously your own personal values for "importance" will make a huge difference. For example, I assigned 20 to gaming as well as picture overall.

FWIW, if you make gaming and 3d ghosting have an importance of 0, you get

1) 5010 gets 78.5%
2) RS45 gets 79.4%
3) HW30 gets 84.1%

Before anyone freaks out, I admit this is highly subjective. I did this to help myself. Please ignore or completely adjust the numbers as you like!

I'll see if I can figure out a good way to share my excel. Until then, a summary of my values is at the end of this post.

... Altan

Here is my initial stab at the data...

Importance Category HW30 RS45 5010
0 12V TRIGGER -2 2 2
10 3D ghosting 2 -1 1
6 Build 1 2 1
15 CAL-BRIGHTNESS 1 2 0
14 CAL-GAMUT 1 -1 2
18 CAL-GRAY 2 2 2
20 Gaming 2 -1 -1
4 Inputs 1 0 2
0 IR-INPUT 2 2 -2
5 Lamp Cost 2 0 1
10 Lamp Quality 2 0 1
0 LAN -2 2 -2
5 MAX-BRIGHT 0 1 2
4 Motorized -2 1 -2
20 Picture Overall 1 2 1
6 PIXEL ADJUSTMENT 1 1 1
2 PLACEMENT 0 1 2
0 POWER 1 0 -1
8 SEALED 2 2 -2
15 Sharpness 2 2 2
0 STANDBY 0 1 2
8 Uniform black 2 1 2
6 Warranty 2 0 2
3 ZOOM LOSS 2 0 1
MadMyers is offline  
post #54 of 54 Old 01-24-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ichris View Post

I absolutely do not agree with convergence, MadMyers: There have been extremely limited complaints on this problem with the Sony, whereas there have been lots and lots of complaints for convergence issues with the epsons now and in the past (2 pixel errors etc.)!. Also, AVS (Jason had said) had interrupted the epsons in the past due to the large number of returns... There is a HUGE problem of quality control with the Epsons!

Keep in mind, on this board there are a lot more JVC projector owners than there are Sony owners. So you are going to see more complaints against the JVC's.

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