JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 12:44 PM
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@mike2cents,

Same boat as you, I want a 3D dlp for gaming and 3d use only and the Acer is close to coming off my list because of all the new issues popping up. The only one left I am considering now is the Optoma HD3300 and since I wasn't thrilled woth the HD33 when I had it, I am not expecting much out of it.
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post #272 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmabrain View Post

I strongly recommend not worrying so much about the Sony brightness and spend a little money and thought about your room treatments for projector usage. The current room treatments are about as good as holding an active toaster while taking a bath.

1) At a minimum, get some dark curtains with blackout backing.

2) Paint your room in a flat (maybe semi-flat) dark color. Black is best, but not a 100% requirement. This includes the ceiling and back wall too.

3) Lay a black cloth over your front console. Also change out as many light/white colored furnishings as possible (lamp shades, etc) and eliminate glittery things.

You will likely need a new projector mount and move it forward since the Sony is much deeper than your current PJ. Perhaps just change to a rear wall shelf mount. Lowering the PJ by a foot would be good too.

90% of all my furniture in the room is black. The only white is the entertainment center right there. The room is being painted grey in the following weeks and i have black wood shades that do a pretty good job but i cant put the curtains because the wall is rounded and all the complaints i already get from the girl and my mom. Its like a freaking double team on why i suck every time haha

At night with all lights off its pretty close to a theater tho!


Sorry for crapy picture quality in everything, its all from my iphone
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post #273 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

And for pure 2d content? What would you choose?

easy choice.. the Acer 5360 720P.

just kidding. for 2D bluray only, likely the RS45 although the bright corners were somewhat obvious on fade to blacks on my HP screen, and not on the HW30 or my JVC RS50.

for 2D bluray / HDTV, the HW30. 2 quick reasons.. I like the motion flow (low) with certain sports / racing vs. JVC CMD, and the lamp is much cheaper so I don't feel guilty burning up the hours watching TV.
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post #274 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 01:06 PM
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The Acer is a toy IMHO, 720p is a toy resolution :P

I'll be measuring black uniformity on my HP screen in a couple weeks with the RS-45 against some other projectors, to see how big the issue really is. I'm still trying to get my setup finished, kind of a mess with my room's cooling issues ATM.

I think I've got a new much more professional calibration meter coming soon as well, should work good. Back-ordered or something ATM.


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post #275 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


easy choice.. the Acer 5360 720P.

just kidding. for 2D bluray only, likely the RS45 although the bright corners were somewhat obvious on fade to blacks on my HP screen, and not on the HW30 or my JVC RS50.

for 2D bluray / HDTV, the HW30. 2 quick reasons.. I like the motion flow (low) with certain sports / racing vs. JVC CMD, and the lamp is much cheaper so I don't feel guilty burning up the hours watching TV.

Been there, done that, got the ebay auctions to prove it (regarding 720p units.)
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post #276 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Been there, done that, got the ebay auctions to prove it (regarding 720p units.)

the Acer makes a good 'backyard movie night' projector which I keep lending to friends and neighbors over the summer. if something happens to it, oh well.

and it was the kicker than got me into the pursuit for ghost free 3D.

so what's next on you list??
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post #277 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Cunado View Post

90% of all my furniture in the room is black. The only white is the entertainment center right there. The room is being painted grey in the following weeks and i have black wood shades that do a pretty good job but i cant put the curtains because the wall is rounded and all the complaints i already get from the girl and my mom. Its like a freaking double team on why i suck every time haha

At night with all lights off its pretty close to a theater tho!


Sorry for crapy picture quality in everything, its all from my iphone

I was typing my response while a couple others were posted.

Good that you are changing out some of the current treatments. Your 1.4 screen and this Sony is plenty of juice. Killing the light intrusions and reflected light will greatly enhance what you have.

The photos were daytime, so assumed you might use the PJ not just at night. Those photos showed a lot of light leakage from the blinds which can look a lot nicer with curtains added. Using short rods you can easily add these in small sections to your rounded wall. You may be surprised about the feedback from your girl - women usually like the softer look of curtains and those can work over your existing blinds.

Good luck!
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post #278 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

@mike2cents,

Same boat as you, I want a 3D dlp for gaming and 3d use only and the Acer is close to coming off my list because of all the new issues popping up. The only one left I am considering now is the Optoma HD3300 and since I wasn't thrilled woth the HD33 when I had it, I am not expecting much out of it.

@jmalto I am going to wait and see about the 9500 after ack_bk checks into it. The Optoma will not work at all in my drop ceiling basement man cave. Of course the W7000 will plop right in there if it would just perform. I am leery of the Benq primarily because of the black level comments on it. I would have thought it to be at least up to par with the W6000 but now I wonder? I also wonder if anyone else is coming out with a 3D DLP unit any time soon?
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post #279 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 02:06 PM
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Calm down Zombie... no need to get so snarly

I own a Sony sxrd TV, I know not the same thing, but can't make out the pixels at any distance.

And the JVC analogy is good, but its running in a quasi 4K mode. The pixels shouldn't be visible in that scenario. Its reducing the pixel size 4 times. In 2K mode, with same chip size, JVC vs Sony should look the same or similar.

I still take Tom Huffman's words above yours about the HW30 lens, no offence...
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post #280 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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@ Xavier1 - my comment wasn't directed at you, my apologies if it appeared that way. My point was, I don't think it's fair to make a judgement on a product without seeing it first hand.

Tom's comments were regarding the appearance of pixel structure. There is something about the HW30 and VW95 where the pixel structure isn't as clear defined as it appears to be on a DLP when your nose is pressed to the screen. There is no pixel structure at all when MPC is engaged on the RS55/X70, yet the critical reviews are that the new JVC's are quite sharp. I don't think the overall sharpness of a projector should be judged by staring at pixel structure.

There is also sample variance. If I were to judge my first RS40, I would have said the lens was soft (because it was). The replacement RS50 (by chance) was perfect by comparison. I never assume 2 projectors are going to perform exactly the same way due to these variances.
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post #281 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 02:26 PM
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I agree pixel-level sharpness is not the absolute determining factor, as it is only one type of sharpness, it can however be used in the measuring process as one of about 5 main attributes to sharpness. Pixel level sharpness can have a negative affect in video, but it can also act as a sharpening filter so to speak for certain types of content (depends though as it combines with other factors in sharpness, so it can go either way). There are several things to use, my test pattern will show textual sharpness on non-anti-aliased text, video sharpness, pattern sharpness, color sharpness, and sharpness across varying colors, etc... These all have to be taken into account. Not only do you have to look at all this, you also have to then check the focus uniformity and sharpness across different parts of the screen.

For instance if I have a red convergence error, then my text may appear much sharper with WHITE text on a red background than your text appears with a GREEN error, even if the green is 1/2 the error. The red background will hide the error. Generally speaking a blue error is the least concern, a green error is second least, and a red error is the largest concern in convergence (because easiest to see), or that is how I understand it.

That is why I just average it out across multiple patterns, I like that pattern I made (even though I know it's ugly) just because I'm used to it and seen it on so many different projectors. If I had known then what I know now, I would have made the pattern much more sophisticated, I would have used more color patterns and more color on text, and some other things as well, some moving video patterns too and crammed it all on one screen to compare at the same time. Maybe one day I will.


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Web Calculator v023 & v025
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post #282 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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@ Coder - i'll try to post some screen shots later tonight of my HTPC desktop and close ups as well. I have a very good macro lens for my Nikon bodies.

Do you still want the LT? I think you mentioned you were getting a new meter soon?
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post #283 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 02:37 PM
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I think I am getting a new one just back ordered or something.

Also I'm not an expert in sharpness, that is just the way I understand it, I guess I should add that disclaimer. I need to revisit all the AVS-HD patterns, my S&M, and the DVE patterns. The ones I remember I was not impressed for evaluating sharpness, because you had to use so many different ones to get a true feel for it, that is why I crammed things into one pattern. Although, I'd wish I had done the pattern differently, but it is kind of hard to change now since I've been using that one for several years, lol...


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

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post #284 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 03:01 PM
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Sorry Zombie, my mistake. Your a great AVS fellow-member and I appreciate all the input and hard work you put in.
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post #285 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I think I am getting a new one just back ordered or something.

Also I'm not an expert in sharpness, that is just the way I understand it, I guess I should add that disclaimer. I need to revisit all the AVS-HD patterns, my S&M, and the DVE patterns. The ones I remember I was not impressed for evaluating sharpness, because you had to use so many different ones to get a true feel for it, that is why I crammed things into one pattern. Although, I'd wish I had done the pattern differently, but it is kind of hard to change now since I've been using that one for several years, lol...

me neither.. my test pattern for sharpness is Laurence Fishburne in the Matrix.

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post #286 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 06:37 PM
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me neither.. my test pattern for sharpness is Laurence Fishburne in the Matrix.


Jason, the question is: Is Fishburne really there or do you just think he is?

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post #287 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 06:54 PM
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I think he had some Acne issues as kid, either that or he is really bad at aiming his razor while shaving.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #288 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the Acer makes a good 'backyard movie night' projector which I keep lending to friends and neighbors over the summer. if something happens to it, oh well.

and it was the kicker than got me into the pursuit for ghost free 3D.

so what's next on you list??

I am scratching my head on where to go from here. I think the Acer is out until they can get the SBS issues fixed so that leaves the Optoma 8200, HD3300, or *gulp* the Panny 7000. Honestly, I really want to keep the BenQ but I can't go without a TV downstairs (just sold my Plasma like an idiot.)

I think I may bypass any further headaches and go back to the HW30 as my gaming/regular TV projector as I really enjoyed just about everything. I am kicking myself for selling it to get the JVC HD250 when the pre-order price AVS had on the Sony was unreal.

Live and learn, right?
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post #289 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

I am scratching my head on where to go from here. I think the Acer is out until they can get the SBS issues fixed so that leaves the Optoma 8200, HD3300, or *gulp* the Panny 7000. Honestly, I really want to keep the BenQ but I can't go without a TV downstairs (just sold my Plasma like an idiot.)

I think I may bypass any further headaches and go back to the HW30 as my gaming/regular TV projector as I really enjoyed just about everything. I am kicking myself for selling it to get the JVC HD250 when the pre-order price AVS had on the Sony was unreal.

Live and learn, right?

I didn't read about the SBS issue on the 9500.. what happens to it in SBS mode?

I meant to ask you a while back why you sold the HW30. I feel like I have a good copy, the lens is sharp over my entire screen and the black floor has no bright corners. Plus the 3D is great with the MV3D's, so I can't see parting with one for a while... especially now that I know it only has the 30ms lag time for gaming. There's a few games i've been meaning to check out.

I shouldn't have waited this long to calibrate it. I thought it looked so nice out of the box, but once the colors were corrected, gamma adjusted, etc it looks much better now.

imo, All 3 projectors needed at least a basic calibration.
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post #290 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:16 PM
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Here is one image I use for video sharpness comparisons, but I mainly use a scene from Hawaii: An Island Symphony (they should make this in 3D, that'd be cool).

If you look really close, you can see Lawrence Fishburn waving from the third continent

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
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Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #291 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:22 PM
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I am probably going to get the H9500 since I cannot get any good feedback on the W7000 black levels and I am not at all happy with their warranty procedure if I get a dud. I know I can return it to seller but pay shipping for that too. Ugghhh. I passed on the 9500 before Xmas because I was sure the W7000 was going to be the one. Now I am going to wait for it to be on sale again because I am not going to pay $200 more than I should be able to get it for. If that one does not work, it will go back and I will keep my 8350 until somebody gets it right.
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post #292 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:25 PM
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I am probably going to get the H9500 since I cannot get any good feedback on the W7000 black levels and I am not at all happy with their warranty procedure if I get a dud. I know I can return it to seller but pay shipping for that too. Ugghhh. I passed on the 9500 before Xmas because I was sure the W7000 was going to be the one. Now I am going to wait for it to be on sale again because I am not going to pay $200 more than I should be able to get it for. If that one does not work, it will go back and I will keep my 8350 until somebody gets it right.

Mike,

I saw you are not a big gamer, why not get the Epson 5010? I am not going to lie, if the input lag was under 80ms I would have one in my house. What do you want to know about the black levels on the Benq outside of they aren't great out of the box. If you have ever seen the Epson 3010, they are about as comparable as the Epson with the iris on low; I would say your 8350 has similar black levels, maybe even better. I know you are a DLP fan but almost all of them this year (3D models) have some kind of issue. I am not quite sure the tearing issue on the 9500 is as bad as some are making it out to be, I may still pick one up from Newegg and just re-sell it if I don't like it. I passed on the Tiger deal as well because I have one about an exit down from my house so I would have to pay tax.

I just saw the Panny's have flicker issues (hit or miss) so that one is off my list now too. I don't get what has happened with people's QA departments these days?

The hunt continues
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post #293 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:28 PM
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You still like the 5010 over the hw30 huh?

If I were not a gamer, I'd get the JVC RS-45 I think, wait I did get the JVC RS-45, nm...

My $500 DLP gives my JVC a run for the money in black levels, but only when the DLP is turned off


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #294 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:31 PM
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I didn't read about the SBS issue on the 9500.. what happens to it in SBS mode?

I meant to ask you a while back why you sold the HW30. I feel like I have a good copy, the lens is sharp over my entire screen and the black floor has no bright corners. Plus the 3D is great with the MV3D's, so I can't see parting with one for a while... especially now that I know it only has the 30ms lag time for gaming. There's a few games i've been meaning to check out.

I shouldn't have waited this long to calibrate it. I thought it looked so nice out of the box, but once the colors were corrected, gamma adjusted, etc it looks much better now.

imo, All 3 projectors needed at least a basic calibration.

Some people are reporting that the Acer is tearing the image on SBS content and there are also several reports of the unit overheating. I can probably live with the heat problem because I can put a small fan on the projector, but the SBS tearing will drive me nuts if it is severe. Unfortunately, Newegg has a poor return policy on this item so it is a gamble to buy it from them. I may pony up the extra $ and get it from Tiger so I can at least return it.

I sold the HW30 to buy the JVC HD250 because at the time I really wanted a JVC for the black levels. My Sony looked great out of the box but I never spent a lot of time calibrating it (before I had my equipment) and the gentleman I was going to get to calibrate it never could find a time that worked to get here. After factoring in the cost of a pro calibration vs. selling the Sony and buying the JVC, it was actually cheaper to go that route so I did.

Want to sell me your HW30?
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post #295 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:35 PM
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You still like the 5010 over the hw30 huh?

If I were not a gamer, I'd get the JVC RS-45 I think, wait I did get the JVC RS-45, nm...

My $500 DLP gives my JVC a run for the money in black levels, but only when the DLP is turned off

If I ever get the 5010 I seriously will consider sending it to zombie so he can do a comparison. I had the 3010 and was pretty impressed with the image quality once you got the brightness under control. The black levels weren't great, but it did a lot of stuff right for the price tag.

By the way you are the one that talked me into opening the RS-45, good call there. I had the RS40 last year and this one SEEMS brighter, maybe it is the bulb I don't know. I dumped the RS40 after only 9 hours on the bulb because I was affraid it was going to explode
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post #296 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:38 PM
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By the way you are the one that talked me into opening the RS-45, good call there. I

So the JVC went back too, didn't you pay a re-stocking fee, wow. So for the JVC the 3-D didn't do it for you, I could have told you that, I should have said "DONT OPEN IT"...

You are worse than I was a couple years ago, at one point I had like 5 projectors at my house at the same time from 3 different vendors. I thought the LCOS image would be soft, but I can assure you the image on the JVC does not appear soft to me. The 8500ub on the other hand was soft.

I guess the Epson 5010 has come a ways in the sharpness department, it should since it costs quite a bit more.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #297 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Mike,

I saw you are not a big gamer, why not get the Epson 5010? I am not going to lie, if the input lag was under 80ms I would have one in my house. What do you want to know about the black levels on the Benq outside of they aren't great out of the box. If you have ever seen the Epson 3010, they are about as comparable as the Epson with the iris on low; I would say your 8350 has similar black levels, maybe even better. I know you are a DLP fan but almost all of them this year (3D models) have some kind of issue. I am not quite sure the tearing issue on the 9500 is as bad as some are making it out to be, I may still pick one up from Newegg and just re-sell it if I don't like it. I passed on the Tiger deal as well because I have one about an exit down from my house so I would have to pay tax.

I just saw the Panny's have flicker issues (hit or miss) so that one is off my list now too. I don't get what has happened with people's QA departments these days?

The hunt continues

Yeah, can you imagine me explaining to the wife how this 1.5x more expensive projector has less black level performance than my 8350? Oh and never mind the lockups and delays getting in and out of 3D. So it looks like the H9500 might get a shot because Art liked the contrast and kraine bought one for personal use. If that fails I may just get the 5010 because I am getting tired of this business and Epson will just keep sending one until I am happy. I guess I should go to BB and get a 3010 just long enough to see what minimal ghosting looks like but I am afraid I will hate it.
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post #298 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

So the JVC went back too, didn't you pay a re-stocking fee, wow. So for the JVC the 3-D didn't do it for you, I could have told you that, I should have said "DONT OPEN IT"...

You are worse than I was a couple years ago, at one point I had like 5 projectors at my house at the same time from 3 different vendors. I thought the LCOS image would be soft, but I can assure you the image on the JVC does not appear soft to me. The 8500ub on the other hand was soft.

I guess the Epson 5010 has come a ways in the sharpness department, it should since it costs quite a bit more.

coder - I kept the RS45, I am waiting on Mark to issue me a refund on the 3d kit for the JVC I am using it strictly for 2D which is why I am hunting for a 3D/gaming projector to fill that gap. The thing I can't get out of my mind is everyone that currently owns a JVC and the Epson are saying the Epson is just as sharp, super bright in 3D, and looks as good in the black level department. Epson obviously did something right this year with that model.

Zombie - I was giving this post some thought earlier today about why you like the HW30 so much and am curious if you would still think the image is on-par with the JVC if you didn't have a HP screen? The one thing that really made me want to get rid of it was the soft image it had on my 140" AT screen (1.2 gain.) I will say from what I remember the RS45 and the BenQ were sharper than the Sony on my setup, but again that was pretty much uncalibrated at the time.

Mike - Do a search for my posts on the 3010, I tested a TON of material on that projector and only saw ghosting/crosstalk a handful of times. By the time I sold my Epson I had well over 4x more hours on it than I have had on any of my previous projectors. The one flick I remember causing an issue for the Epson was the intro to Resident Evil Afterlife, it had flickering in the lobby scene but everything else was golden. On my 8700UB I sold it with 7 hours on it, lol.
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post #299 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 08:05 PM
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Hey, Jason, can you do me a favor (if you haven't already checked)? On the Sony HW30, take a look at one of the interior scenes on Galaxar's spaceship in Monsters vs Aliens, where he's set against a really dark interior. Do you see the telltale white on black ghosting of his tentacles against the background? Or are you able to tune that out?

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post #300 of 3270 Old 12-29-2011, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Mike - Do a search for my posts on the 3010, I tested a TON of material on that projector and only saw ghosting/crosstalk a handful of times. By the time I sold my Epson I had well over 4x more hours on it than I have had on any of my previous projectors. The one flick I remember causing an issue for the Epson was the intro to Resident Evil Afterlife, it had flickering in the lobby scene but everything else was golden. On my 8700UB I sold it with 7 hours on it, lol.

Thanks jmalto. Looks like my plan is try H9500. Failing that I will return the H9500 and get the 5010. I know I say I don't care about gaming but some of these new 3D games have caught my interest. I used to game when it was in its' infancy. I am talking Falcon air battles and similar over dial up. Can you imagine how slow that was? Now my son does all of that but I might try my hand at a few on the big screen just to make him jealous. I suppose after several real wars, FPS games kind of lost their appeal to me.
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