JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout
coderguy's Avatar coderguy 10:58 PM 10-19-2012
@TheWalkingDead
I take your word for it, I have seen a 2.8 but I didn't really pay much attention, looked pretty close since I didn't have them in the same room at the same time. I didn't know that the 2.4 has more texture, some people have also said the reverse in the old Da-Lite thread in the screen forums (that the 2.4 has less texture in bright scenes). I trust you though, and I haven't been in that thread in a while (so I might be wrong about who thought what), but I'm not going to get in a wrinkle over it since this is what I have for now (the 2.4).

Yes this post was to Zombie, and yes I was making a bad joke.

BTW Z --- You got a lot of work ahead of you, should be fun on the hw50 test, wish I had one on me...
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zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 12:17 AM 10-20-2012
when I mentioned texture, I just meant upon very close inspection to the screen, not from seating distance. The 2.8 was very smooth to the touch and thought the 2.4 had a bit of a texture when running your fingers across the surface (not that i recommend putting your paws on the screen).

When I installed my friends 2.4 106" cinema contour a few months ago, I thought the 2.4 has a very interesting 'smell' that I think was mentioned in the Dalite screen thread. It wore off after a few days, but it was a little funky for a while after we took it out of the box.
dougri's Avatar dougri 11:03 AM 10-20-2012
@zombie... Which HCHP screen size would you think provides the best balance for the w7000 in a living room environment (light walls, lots of windows with not-quite opaque blinds)? Seating distance dictates 120"-144"
anidabi's Avatar anidabi 04:22 AM 11-03-2012
Why there aren't epson 5010 contrast measurements in the first page? Ghosting, lumens and all other are, but I'm not able to find contrast measurements.
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 06:10 AM 11-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by anidabi View Post

Why there aren't epson 5010 contrast measurements in the first page? Ghosting, lumens and all other are, but I'm not able to find contrast measurements.

Hi, the contrast measurements of the 5010 were ~ 5:000:1 native.
anidabi's Avatar anidabi 06:50 AM 11-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Hi, the contrast measurements of the 5010 were ~ 5:000:1 native.
Thank you, but oh... didn't realize that there weren't any contrast measurement in the first page and I mixed it with lumen measurements, wihich are not there if talking about 5010.

Can you edit them in the first page if you even have contrast measurements for the other pj's? smile.gif
leila80's Avatar leila80 10:25 AM 12-01-2012
Hello, i've been testing 3D on my new brand HW30 and i'm finding too much crosstalk!
I took pic of the grand canyon (sorry for the picture quality, cam is pretty old), using the Sony glasses that come with pj, sharpness at min:

Judging from the pic of zombie:

Something is not right confused.gif
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 10:40 AM 12-01-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by leila80 View Post

Hello, i've been testing 3D on my new brand HW30 and i'm finding too much crosstalk!
I took pic of the grand canyon (sorry for the picture quality, cam is pretty old), using the Sony glasses that come with pj, sharpness at min:

Something is not right confused.gif

Did you go into the 3D menu and turn down the 3D brightness 1 level below maximum? This can make a big difference with a minimal drop in brightness.
leila80's Avatar leila80 11:00 AM 12-01-2012
Yes i did, but its still noticeable:

Screen is an optoma 106" 1.0 gain, not sure if it matters, or could this be a projector fault?
icecold1936's Avatar icecold1936 10:27 AM 12-06-2012
All,

I was contemplating the Benq W7000, Epson 3020/5010, and Mitsubishi HC7800. I called mike from AVS to get some advice and gave him my specs. He told me that Sony HW30AES would be better for my needs. So, I ordered the B-Stock Sony HW-30AES from him. I received my projector from AVS last night. I did a quick hookup on a table top just to make sure everything is in working order. The unit came with 0 hours on the lamp (so it was brand new). This projector was very quiet. I was amazed how quiet it was. At first, I didn't think it was on and i was standing maybe 1 or 2 feet away. Avatar was the first movie on the projector. The out of box picture quality was astounding. It was set to cinema 1. Very vibrant colors, Deep Blacks. Got the jaw-dropping effect with the wife. LOL If I couldn't change the settings I would be more than happy with the way it is. Very happy camper here......biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
furb's Avatar furb 05:23 AM 12-10-2012
Hello ,I've got the same problem with my Epson Emp Tw 5900.I've send the projector to the repair centre and i received it back with a letter in the box that they replaced the mainboard and the optical unit.When i watched it the subtitle ghosting was still there nothing changed!I've called Epson Germany (i am dutch but i live in germany) and they asked me to send it to Epson.After a week i've got it back with a letter in the box that they watched it with 20 different employes but they couldn't see the problem and they say that my unit is normal functioning.I think they are ****ing lying but i don' t know wat to do. What did you do to solve this problem?I got the subtitle ghosting when i watch a blu-ray full 3d in my ps3 with a 10 m hdmi cable. When i watch a half sbs with subs in vlc player the subs are fine.
Ilya Volk's Avatar Ilya Volk 09:52 AM 12-29-2012
Found a very interesting shootout between RS45 and HW30:

First fotos are RS45, second HW30.

http://www.mundodvd.com/jvc-dla-rs45-vs-sony-vpl-hw30es-cordoba-20-10-2012-a-104054/








































anidabi's Avatar anidabi 10:04 AM 12-29-2012
Are the optics really this bad on the hw30es? Looks like something smudge on the lens or like darbee on jvc and no darbee on sony.

Also, have those night scenes pictures been over saturated? Sony looks more like my cheap dlp than sxrd.
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 10:16 AM 12-29-2012
the screenshots are ok for comparing the sharpness, but there is no way to evaluate the contrast and black level performance between these 2 projectors from these photos. I had both at the same time in a direct A/B comparison. The black level on the RS45 was definitely better than the HW30, although the HW50 is closing the gap.

you would need a camera capable of ~14 stops to capture the difference and then a $25k reference studio monitor that is capable of displaying 14 stops to properly see the difference between the 2. The average home LCD monitor is 1000:1 contrast.
Ilya Volk's Avatar Ilya Volk 07:43 PM 12-29-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the screenshots are ok for comparing the sharpness, but there is no way to evaluate the contrast and black level performance between these 2 projectors from these photos. I had both at the same time in a direct A/B comparison. The black level on the RS45 was definitely better than the HW30,

Hmmm, actually these photos show greater contrast on JVC, in not only dark scenes, but in the bright also, and HW30 looks washed out in comparison. That was the point, I was hoping everyone will notice that.

Lets try this way:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166265
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166266

(To compare, select picture #, and move mouse in and out of picture: mouse out - HW30, mouse in - RS45)
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 08:57 PM 12-29-2012
Da-lite thought that the 2.8 was not such a great screen fabric and was able to correct some of its deficiences in reformulating the material to 2.4. They they still think it has a lot of undesirable qualities but WE know better.The only thing that is important is the gain of a screen. How could they not realize this? I am dumbfounded. Simply amazed. What could they know or be thinking?
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 09:35 PM 12-29-2012
I think you posted in the wrong thread. I don't think anyone was talking about the HP here.
pankov's Avatar pankov 01:51 AM 12-30-2012
Zombie,
any news on round 2 of the shootout?
I saw another thread started by you but didn't see any info on the new EPSON. Did I miss it or you still didn't get the chance to play with it?
cemo62's Avatar cemo62 02:20 AM 12-30-2012
@Ilya Volk and other buddies

What about hw50es vs jvc RS45 comparission? Same results like that images?
Joesyah's Avatar Joesyah 07:42 AM 12-30-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

@Ilya Volk and other buddies
What about hw50es vs jvc RS45 comparission? Same results like that images?

Check the other mini shoot out thread. The VW50 is better than the VW30. As much as folks would like it to be, it will not compete with the JVCs in contrast/black levels, nor does it have the native sharpness of the JVC. It will do better 3D and from all accounts satisfy most people. Jason/Zombie has another thread dedicated to testing it with other competing models. Check it out http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/sony-hw50-benq-w7000-epson-5020-jvc-rs55-jvc-rs-46-jvc-rs4810-jvc-rs56-mini-shootout-2012-2013.
DisTreSs's Avatar DisTreSs 10:55 AM 02-05-2013
Sorry for digging up the older comparison thread, I know there is a newer one, but my remark is more connected to last year's generation.

In the first part of this thread a long time ago, I stated that after 2 demo's on seperate occasions of the RS45, I failed to see almost any crosstalk which was not supported by the findings of most other people. Stubbornly I went ahead and ordered the RS45 anyway since I insisted with my dealer that I expected the 3D to be every bit as good on mine as it was on his RS45. You guessed it: once I got mine, the crosstalk was most definitely there and the dealer pretended he wasn't home anymore...

The reason I'm coming back to this is the fact that I think I now know why I did not notice the crosstalk at the time. It is possible to get good 3D on the RS45 (depending on screen size, projection distance, etc) if you turn the contrast down to next-to-nothing! Which is what I guess the dealer did at the time and what I failed to notice. In my defence, there is so much going on during a demo and a dealer who (wittingly?) fumbles around the menu as a novice, makes it hard to notice this.

Ofcourse turning down the contrast will also impact image quality and brightness and depending on your setup you might not get away with it, but I just sat through Legend of the Guardians and the result was still good imho.

The reason then why I'm posting this in the comparison thread is the following: we all know that native contrast on the RS45 is substantially higher than on the Sony and Epson models for instance. So is the reason why crosstalk is less obvious there not simply down to this fact, i.e. the lower native contrast? The DI does not work for these devices in 3D mode, so we should only look at native and not dynamic contrast anyway.
The question then becomes: how much is the menu contrast setting reducing the contrast of the JVC? Does it bring the native contrast of the JVC down to the native contrast levels of the Sony/Epson? And if so, wouldn't it be a much fairer comparison crosstalk-wise for the JVC, putting it on equal footing? Imho there will not be so much of a difference in crosstalk anymore then.
I do think the Sony/JVC will still yield a brighter picture in that comparison though, but purely from a crosstalk perspective it would be a closer race.

So wdyt? Just putting this out there as it is just a theory I wanted to have looked at bythe vastly more knowledgeable people out there. wink.gif
coderguy's Avatar coderguy 02:03 PM 02-05-2013
The reason for the higher ghosting on the JVC's is the slower panel speeds. The JVC only operates at 120hz, I think the Sony is at least 240hz, and the Epson is 480hz? (something like that).
Other more minor reasons could include a deficiency in the crosstalk cancelling software, higher contrast, etc...

I don't think that is a solution, adjusting the contrast only has a limited effect on it, though you can try.
DisTreSs's Avatar DisTreSs 07:16 AM 02-06-2013
Hi Coderguy

And who stated to a fact that this was for the major part down to panel speed? Has this ever been proven or is it just a theory that holds as much validity as mine? Not asking this in a confrontational way, just want to check that this is not just information that gets regurgitated without solid basis in fact.

I obviously HAVE tried reducing contrast (or I would not have posted it here) and the effect is a profound one (albeit also one that affects brightness and shadow detail)! That is why I formulated this theory and wanted to validate it here by more knowledgeable people than myself...
It only takes 2 seconds to turn down contrast to -40 or something in the menu to see it for yourself. At -50 crosstalk is virtually indistinguishable, but so is any life in the picture wink.gif
Legend of the guardians to me became much more pleasant to watch and although I'm sure I also missed out on some vibrancy in the picture, at least there was no distracting crosstalk which is the bigger issue in this case. Missing out on some pop in the picture doesn't hurt if you don't know you're missing it, crosstalk does. Unless you switch back and forth, I doubt most people would be aware of this in a 3D setting and judging from the comments of the good 3D on the Sony's and Epsons with relatively limited native contrast without DI, I guess it is proven that most people don't.

So my question is: what are the native contrast numbers once you dial down this setting on the JVC? If it brings the JVC down to the level of its competitors, then this would make for a much fairer comparison.

We have always been discussing panel speed and such, that is true, but has anyone ever bothered to look at contrast as the main and not a minor culprit for this instead?

If we compare the JVC vs the Sony vs the Epson on equal native 3D contrast numbers, judge that crosstalk as a result is also equal in these conditions, then 3D quality mainly will come down to how bright the 3D is. In that case, the edge will still be with especially the Epson I imagine, but I'm sure it would be a much closer race.

Unless someone would care to explain why my theory is totally misguided because I'm overlooking some blatantly obvious basic fact that I'm currently not aware off?
coolplazma's Avatar coolplazma 04:26 PM 03-01-2013
Having had the HW30 for over a year now, I have to report that we are happy as clams (better than crabs?) with this projector which replaced a well performing (but bulb fading) RS40.

We moved into a small HT room with good light control and treatments. Shooting ~12ft to a 110" 1.3 gain screen, the picture is awesome, way bright and acceptably so in 3D, and it still popped with a deeper 2.3 gamma after 400 hours use on the lamp. Another important factor for us is how quiet this machine is.

FWIW, I can't say I have much confidence in the shootout snapshots above since to my eye there are obvious differences between the projectors as far as gamma, hue, etc. We have the Fifth Element BD and I can tell you our setup looks nothing like the poor HW30 snapshots above. I can't be bothered trying to translate the Mondo site to so what the hell they did, but I'm certainly glad I didn't setup my machine like theirs. There are plenty of other and perhaps more trusted comparisons posted here and elsewhere, so if anyone is concerned, go find those instead.

For the next while, we are done with upgrades until there is a release of real Next Gen (lasers, no glasses 3D, super high panel refresh, etc) technology at the $3k pricepoint.
wse's Avatar wse 11:32 AM 05-07-2013

Laser source projectors are they any good in HT?


Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 09:57 PM 05-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Hmmm, actually these photos show greater contrast on JVC, in not only dark scenes, but in the bright also, and HW30 looks washed out in comparison. That was the point, I was hoping everyone will notice that.

Lets try this way:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166265
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166266

(To compare, select picture #, and move mouse in and out of picture: mouse out - HW30, mouse in - RS45)

You're missing Zombie's point. You can't really compare black level, contrast, and color accuracy between two projectors with pictures from a digital camera. They won't be accurate at all on how they'll look in real life.
larrimore's Avatar larrimore 07:22 AM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You're missing Zombie's point. You can't really compare black level, contrast, and color accuracy between two projectors with pictures from a digital camera. They won't be accurate at all on how they'll look in real life.

+1

I love all the screen shots Art includes in his reviews, but those comparison shots of his are laughable. I agree that sharpness may be relevant for screenshots, but only to point out the differences between the two particular units the shots are taken from and only if care is taken to dial tehm both in perfectly (enhancement levels in both, etc). With any 3 chip design, convergence varies from unit to unit to the point that perceived sharpness is different. I would bet you could get 2 HW30s or 2 RS45s and get the same level of difference from those shots included above. Now, if one can prove the sharpness difference with multiple units of each, then I'd buy it.

My $ 0.02...
JonStatt's Avatar JonStatt 08:54 AM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The reason for the higher ghosting on the JVC's is the slower panel speeds. The JVC only operates at 120hz, I think the Sony is at least 240hz, and the Epson is 480hz? (something like that).
Other more minor reasons could include a deficiency in the crosstalk cancelling software, higher contrast, etc...

I don't think that is a solution, adjusting the contrast only has a limited effect on it, though you can try.

There are multiple aspects at play here. For example, the JVC uses frame addressing for its 3D modes, meaning that the full frame is refreshed at a given moment in time. So although it refreshes at 120Hz, it can keep the glasses open for longer. I understand the Sony uses line refreshing of the panels, which means that there is a shorter window for the glasses to be open but as it refreshes faster it can do it more often. Also as is well documented, the level of contrast (i.e. the more each pixel is moved), the more crosstalk occurs as there appears to be some leftover image. Therefore there are many parameters that manufacturers play with to optimise the 3D, none of which are perfect. I believe in the X3,X7,X9, JVC used a refresh of 96Hz actually for blu-ray (24Hz *4) and not 120Hz. My understanding is that this was changed to 120Hz in the X30,X70,X90 but I don't have the ability to measure this.
wse's Avatar wse 06:08 PM 05-09-2013

Question: I have a JVC RS35U is it worth replacing it with a new model, I could care less about 3D


blee0120's Avatar blee0120 09:12 PM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Question: I have a JVC RS35U is it worth replacing it with a new model, I could care less about 3D

Probably not, even though the current RS56 and 66 have a higher contrast ratio. The 66 should be noticeable. Also, the new bulb seems to be holding up as most hoped. I'm waiting on either the new model this fall or the next.
Tags: Jvc , Jvc Dla Rs45 Home Theater Projector 1080p Hdmi , Kef Q700wa Floorstanding Speaker , Epson 5010 Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector , Projectors
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