JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

. Smoothscreen is amazing for that. I sit 7' from my 120" screen. .



That is really, really, really close. Don't you get headaches with action movies?

Anyways, Zombie, we want pictures, we want pictures

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post #542 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

why are 4K projector discussions and projectors other than RS45/HW30/5010/W7000 being posted here??

The RS45 and RS55 are directly related as they are both models from this year. Zombie who started this thread has an RS55 and may want to consider updating the thread topic line to include that model. The 4k feature is in the RS55 and RS65. I don't think the conversation is far off topic but I can understand why the concern is raised.
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post #543 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 12:24 PM
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Sony is too expensive so it's out. JVC is too haunted with ghosts so it's out. Epson is 3 lcd and the very smallest thought that there might even slightly be even one pixel out of convergence drives me insane so it's out. Seems the Benq has been crossed off just about everyone's list for 'quirky' behaviour so I guess even It's out. I'm doomed to buying a new bulb for my old 720p non 3d boring projector. Sigh.
What is motorized pixel panel alignment? Are my miss convergence worries a non issue?
I do have one last question about the startup of each projector. Do any startup with a black screen? No Enjoyment Matter? Or any logo at all?
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post #544 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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the only part that's off topic is discussing how 4k somehow has anything to do with the 3D ghosting on the JVC's. The 55 doesn't use the e-shift in 3D mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post


Anyways, Zombie, we want pictures, we want pictures

I'll have them posted tonight, I ran out of time last night. The ghosting is very similar to the HW30 w/ the tuned MV3D's which means good performance with 3D blurays, even in the tough scenes.

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Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

Hey Jason, you are usually very acute in your observations about flicker and judder, emphasizing FI in 3D as a very nice (and to some necessary) feature to have in reducing or eliminating judder. What is it about the brightness, color and contrast of the 5010 that is discounting those other attributes as non-factors?

Any opinion about 2D-3D conversion? Other HW30 users reported it actually looks pretty good on those units, which seems to be one of the few that may do it well enough to warrant using it occasionally.

How is the update of the OP coming along. Got an ETA for prelims?

I am not really a fan of the 2D -> 3D conversions and I know everyone gets excited when someone claims they found a display 'with really good 2D->3D conversion'... my problem with this is, they can barely do real 3D right with some movies. Dolphin's tale was a bit of a letdown, I ended up turning off the 3D mode on this one.. visitors kids kept asking 'is this really in 3D' ?

I've briefly demo'd the 3D conversions on all the models that supported it. IMO, They all have their own strange behavior and the novelty wears off quick for me.

The 5010 is well behaved with my eyes regarding flicker.. it's a mile ahead of the JVC(s) which never goes away for me and find it quite distracting.

As I mentioned earlier, the brightness in Dynamic 3D is fantastic. Maybe some missed this post, but 1900 lumens in 3D is 2x what the others can put out in 3D mode.. that is something to talk about. The Contrast in dark scenes is better than the W7000. I would like to have seen the FI included, but the strong combo of brightness/color/contrast in 3D mode stands on it's own. The W7000 is still going to take the crown for complete ghost free 3D w/ FI, SBS, 3D console gaming, etc for those that are looking for more than just great 3D BD performance.

I'll post the 3D ghosting comparisons this evening and start updating the original post with 2D comparisons as the week goes on.
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post #545 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 12:42 PM
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Crosstalk is the bane of my existence. So tempted to take the plunge with the 5010, nicely rounded unit (but with a couple of hitches as usual) from the sounds of it, but sent back my Panny 7000 with the same panels because of the ghosting. Sounds like the Epson is better in that regard but not sure??? And Art really seemed to like the Benq. Oh what to do...

Zombie, any chance you could post or perhaps email me higher res pics of your ghosting torture tests on the 5010?
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post #546 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 02:04 PM
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I know this is asking a lot, but Zombie when you have some time can you post detailed comments about ghosting or lack of ghosting on the 5010? I'm very close to purchasing, but need some comments from someone who probably is the most, or one of the most experienced "ghost busters" around here.
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post #547 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 02:07 PM
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does anyone else have Direct TV or Dish or Comcast, etc.. with the 3D channels and tried to watch with one of these units?

The reason I ask is I just bought the HW30 and with DirectTv those 3D channels are absolutely torture to watch in 3D... but on my ps3 BluRay and even the 3D games the picture is crisp, clear, no ghosting, etc.

Is there a setting I need to adjust other than the projector settings (3D depth & Glasses Brightness) because it doesn't matter what settings I use they are all bad?
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post #548 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I know this is asking a lot, but Zombie when you have some time can you post detailed comments about ghosting or lack of ghosting on the 5010? I'm very close to purchasing, but need some comments from someone who probably is the most, or one of the most experienced "ghost busters" around here.


I ran across this review by Petri of the Epson 6000.
I'm not sure what it's comparable to over here (6010?). This is the European version. Anyway, it's in Finnish (good luck with Google translate) but it has some comparison photos of 3D ghosting on "low, medium, high" if you scroll down. He also shows photos of a ghosting chart on the three different settings. It looks a lot like most of the other non-DLP results to me. I'd like to see something like this chart adopted by all reviewers of 3D displays.

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post #549 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milez28 View Post

does anyone else have Direct TV or Dish or Comcast, etc.. with the 3D channels and tried to watch with one of these units?

The reason I ask is I just bought the HW30 and with DirectTv those 3D channels are absolutely torture to watch in 3D... but on my ps3 BluRay and even the 3D games the picture is crisp, clear, no ghosting, etc.

Is there a setting I need to adjust other than the projector settings (3D depth & Glasses Brightness) because it doesn't matter what settings I use they are all bad?


The biggest issue you are likely noticing is the difference between Side-by-Side (SbS) and Blu-ray (framepacked) 3D.

DirecTV 3D is strictly (100%) Side-by-Side (SbS) format. Depending on the channel, resolution can be 720p (ESPN), or 1080P/60 (the other channels), or 1080P/24 on 3D movies via OnDemand (via download).

With my RS40 I found maybe 50% of the DTV channel content watchable and had the other 50% already in my BD library. On the RS40, 1080P/24 SbS-3D is not supported at all - JVC added that in the RS45.

Sorry, no experience with the HW30 and DTV.

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post #550 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post


I ran across this review by Petri of the Epson 6000.
I'm not sure what it's comparable to over here (6010?). This is the European version. Anyway, it's in Finnish (good luck with Google translate) but it has some comparison photos of 3D ghosting on "low, medium, high" if you scroll down. He also shows photos of a ghosting chart on the three different settings. It looks a lot like most of the other non-DLP results to me. I'd like to see something like this chart adopted by all reviewers of 3D displays.

Comparable to Epson 3010

2014
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post #551 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 04:02 PM
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Hmmm, maybe if I switch the resolution to 720p on the box or projector or both when watching this it might improve the picture then because especially the ESPN 3D is bad... I mean really bad when trying to watch a football game in 3D it's like, what's the point if I can get a crisp/clear picture on 2D why would I wan't to kill my eyes trying to watch this crap?

Sorry fellas I feel like this is a little off topic now but thanks Coolplazma
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post #552 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post


I ran across this review by Petri of the Epson 6000.
I'm not sure what it's comparable to over here (6010?).

Joseph - Hi, I believe that is the 3010 based on the photos. I don't know how the 3010 compares to the 5010/6010 for 3D performance.

Deja - what are your expectations for 3D? If I was forced to classify the different models, the JVC's would be on one end (these are beyond my threshold for 3D with tough movies), the HW30 / 5010 in the mid-high performance, and the W7000 for guaranteed never a chance to see it, no matter what. The trade off's are the contrast with the W7000 and being forced to run DLP Link. The HW30 with the FI in 3D and minimal ghosting is a treat to my eyes, and still quite bright on my HP. If you want good contrast, killer brightness in 3D and minimal ghosting, then choose the 5010. Pick your poison.

One of these is the JVC RS45, the other is the 5010. If folks are married to the 2D IQ of the JVC (which is excellent) and jonsing for quality 3D BD with lumens to spare, then the 5010 makes a great companion projector.



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post #553 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 04:37 PM
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What is the natural position of the 5010? For the 3010, when it was ceiling mounted, the center of the lens was the top of the image. Is this not the case with the 5010? The reason I ask is because I'm reading about people seeing picture anomalies when using significant lens shift with the 5010. My setup was exactly right for the 3010 (lens is at top of image), so if the W7000 can use lens shift without screwing up the image, then the 5010 is out of the question for me.
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post #554 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imblind View Post

What is the natural position of the 5010? For the 3010, when it was ceiling mounted, the center of the lens was the top of the image. Is this not the case with the 5010? The reason I ask is because I'm reading about people seeing picture anomalies when using significant lens shift with the 5010. My setup was exactly right for the 3010 (lens is at top of image), so if the W7000 can use lens shift without screwing up the image, then the 5010 is out of the question for me.

I am using both with a center mount to the screen, so I may not be able to entirely answer this question. I have the W6000 and SP890 (same chassis/ lens as the W7000) @ work with a ceiling mount and maximum lens shift. Both are exceptionally sharp and pixel perfect, especially since we use these for 1920x1080 desktop training. I wouldn't expect any lens issues with the W7000 and a ceiling mount.

Any links to the complaints on the 5010/6010? I'd like to see what they are referring so. there is a chance I can test this if I know what i'm looking for.
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post #555 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 05:09 PM
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I can't wait to hear your take on the Sony versus the Epson in 2D.

The 3D picture of the Epson is so much better than the JVC at so many levels, it's scary.

Do not steal, The powers that be do not like the competition.
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post #556 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milez28 View Post

Hmmm, maybe if I switch the resolution to 720p on the box or projector or both when watching this it might improve the picture then because especially the ESPN 3D is bad... I mean really bad when trying to watch a football game in 3D it's like, what's the point if I can get a crisp/clear picture on 2D why would I wan't to kill my eyes trying to watch this crap?

Sorry fellas I feel like this is a little off topic now but thanks Coolplazma

I have Fios and with the 7000 ESPN is ok on close ups but the normal view of each play is almost unwatchable. On demand is not really better with a lot of block dropouts. Blu ray is really the only 3D I can watch....but that is stunning with no crosstalk/ghosting etc.
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post #557 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 05:41 PM
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A question I haven't seen brought up about the Epson is if people start using the Epson in Dynamic mode for very long how is this going to impact the overall brightness of the lamp over time? I.E. Iis the lamp going to start dimming quicker? I suppose time will tell.
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post #558 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

The various glasses have different tints other than the Monster vs Epson because those glasses appear to be the same glasses. That said I would asume that each projector manufacurer sets the3D mode to compensate for the glassesthey sell. The Epson 3D mode viewed without the glasses is very red. The Epson glasses are tinted so that the red tint viewed through the glasses is nearly gone. But the projector in 3D needs a small calibration adjustment to completely neutralize the tint.

Thanks Mark. That makes perfect sense, and matches my experience, albeit limited. Projectors are full of colour filters, so its the end result that counts. As long as the glasses have a consistent, even shade of colour that doesnt change over different parts of the lens, and glass thickness is the same over the entire surface, it can be easily be balanced out by the manufacturer.


To throw another wrench in the plans, what about the Panny AE7000. Here is what Art from ProjectorReviews had to say about it when comparing it side by side with the Epson 5010. Now he states that 2D was better on the Epson, mainly because of the blacks, but note his comments on the 3D...

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...5010/image.php

"Here comes a major role reversal. Switch to 3D and the Panasonic now easily beats the Epson Home Cinema 5010 in terms of black level performance. The Epson still maintains an advantage at dark shadow detail

Why the reversal? Epson does not offer use of their Dynamic iris in 3D modes. I can't say I approve, and I can't think of any other 3D capable projectors that doesn't allow the iris to work, so it is dissapointing.

No doubt Epson's logic, is that a dynamic iris not only drops the black levels, but also the overall brightness of darker scenes. With 3D inherently being limited in brightness, that can make sense. But why not let us users make the choice.

Ultimately, watching really dark 3D scenes, the Epson does well enough - this is an ultra-high contrast projector, and even without the dynamic iris, it has good blacks - about as good, for example as Epson's less expensive HC3010 when it uses its iris.

So, sure, watching 3D content, is darker, but anyway you consider it, the Panasonic does offer the blacker blacks on 3D. Myself, like most of you will, due to the brightness differences between 2D and 3D, consider black performance on 2D to be far more important, expecially since most of what we all watch is 2D.

None the less, this catagory is a split between the PT-AE7000 with it's black advantage, and the Epson Home Cinema 5010 with more shadow detail.

Overall Winner: 3D blacks and shadow detail: PT-AE7000."
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post #559 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

.

Any links to the complaints on the 5010/6010? I'd like to see what they are referring so. there is a chance I can test this if I know what i'm looking for.

On the AVS calibration disc, there is a Convergence pattern (Misc Pattern menu) with small squares and a dot in each square.
Look at the dots across the entire screen.
I've found that the dots get distorted when a good amount of vertical lens is used.
I've seen this on the 5010 and X70.
The center usually looks good but as you go toward the outside of the screen, the dots have like a Nike swoosh tail on top. The dots no longer look like clean/clear dots.
These projectors were rear ceiling mounted located above the top of the screen.

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post #560 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post

Thanks Mark. That makes perfect sense, and matches my experience, albeit limited. Projectors are full of colour filters, so its the end result that counts. As long as the glasses have a consistent, even shade of colour that doesnt change over different parts of the lens, and glass thickness is the same over the entire surface, it can be easily be balanced out by the manufacturer.

FYI - I believe mark was referring to the W7000 when talking about the Red cast. there is no red cast on the 5010 at all in 3D mode. Mark did not have a chance to correctly view 3D on the 5010 due to having the wrong glasses.

IMO, Art didn't spend enough time talking about the virtues of the 5010's 3D torch mode. This is a big deal when we are talking 2x the lumens in 3D than any of the other projectors. I love this mode.. it's the first time someone isn't going to think 3D is dim through the glasses. It's intense on my HP screen, you will squint coming from dark to bright scenes.. just how I like it.

black level performance in 3D on the 5010 is very good, as is overall contrast.
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post #561 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 06:28 PM
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Yeah, come to think of it, torch modes are usually deficient in Red, and thats the mode Epson's Dynamic works best in. How is the Cinema 3D mode, is it even usable?

And does the Dynamic mode force the lamp into high, or can you switch the lamp back down?
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post #562 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post

Yeah, come to think of it, torch modes are usually deficient in Red, and thats the mode Epson's Dynamic works best in. How is the Cinema 3D mode, is it even usable?

And does the Dynamic mode force the lamp into high, or can you switch the lamp back down?

I will verify this for you later tonight. Something definitely happens in Dynamic mode since the fans kick up a notch, but 3D cinema looks about the same brightness as the other projectors in their 3D modes (~800-900 lumens).

I watched quite a bit in both modes, I don't see a noticeable color shift, it's just much brighter in the dynamic mode. I am sensitive to color shifts in 3D which is why I am not a fan of the JVC/JVC glasses combo, there's just too much going on for my eyes to believe I am looking at 2D colors. The HW30 w/ the MV3D's and 5010's with the Epson glasses look quite neutral to my eyes. I run both @ D65 in 3D mode, I don't see a need to change the color of the projector to match these glasses.

@ 1900 lumens with my HP screen x 2.8 (possibly more, the 2.8 has been rated as high as 3.0 with center axis), ~ 5300 lumens. Even with 80% transmissive loss, it still ~1100 lumens. No wonder it looks so bright through the glasses. It's still a little shocking to see 3D this bright.
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post #563 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Joseph - Hi, I believe that is the 3010 based on the photos. I don't know how the 3010 compares to the 5010/6010 for 3D performance.

Deja - what are your expectations for 3D? If I was forced to classify the different models, the JVC's would be on one end (these are beyond my threshold for 3D with tough movies), the HW30 / 5010 in the mid-high performance, and the W7000 for guaranteed never a chance to see it, no matter what. The trade off's are the contrast with the W7000 and being forced to run DLP Link. The HW30 with the FI in 3D and minimal ghosting is a treat to my eyes, and still quite bright on my HP. If you want good contrast, killer brightness in 3D and minimal ghosting, then choose the 5010. Pick your poison.

One of these is the JVC RS45, the other is the 5010. If folks are married to the 2D IQ of the JVC (which is excellent) and jonsing for quality 3D BD with lumens to spare, then the 5010 makes a great companion projector.




Zombie - thanks for the photo of the Epson vs. JVC (River at Risk shot) comparing ghosting. I don't see any ghosting with the 5010 and I guess its a tough scene. How does DM fare? Any possibility you could get that shot using the Epson from DM that you used for the other projectors?

Thanks for doing this at least I won't go into a purchase blind. I'm used to the Acer and so are you so I'm pretty spoiled when it comes to 3D. Is the 5010 good enough for you to keep?
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post #564 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 07:27 PM
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^^^ Zombie, how close is your 5010 (tree) photo to what you see by eye?

Reason I'm asking is because the 5010 photo looks a little overexposed and not sure if it is simply due to the increased brightness of the 5010 and perhaps your use of a fixed camera setting, or if it is somewhat less color saturated in real life. The detail does not seem as good as the JVC in those photos and I'm not entirely sure why. Look at the foreground/left boulders for example.

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post #565 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

^^^ Zombie, how close is your 5010 (tree) photo to what you see by eye?

Reason I'm asking is because the 5010 photo looks a little overexposed and not sure if it is simply due to the increased brightness of the 5010 and perhaps your use of a fixed camera setting, or if it is somewhat less color saturated in real life. The detail does not seem as good as the JVC in those photos and I'm not entirely sure why. Look at the foreground/left boulders for example.

it's a little overexposed, I'll go back and re-take the photos if I have time later. I think the camera might have moved a hair when putting the glasses in front of the camera which is why the detail is a little soft. It's not like that in real viewing, it's quite sharp.
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post #566 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 08:09 PM
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Have any of you heard of the TW9000 LIGHT POWER EDITION that they're selling in Europe? It's essentially a 6010 that comes with this special "light power" filter that goes over the lens:



It basically color-corrects in torch mode so you get accurate color without sacrificing lumens.

Why don't we have this in the USA?

Can one buy this "light power" filter separately from Epson?

If not, I'm seriously considering importing a TW9000 just to get the filter!

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...000_Test_A.htm

http://www.epson.de/de/en/viewcon/co...overview/11388
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post #567 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Joe - the Epson is a torch in 3D mode. On a white background in 3D mode, I measured ~1,900 lumens. The brightness is intense combined with the 2.8 gain HP.

after all the various combos, this one finally feels bright enough through the glasses.

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post #568 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 09:30 PM
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I ordered a 5010 with a pair of Epson's 3D glasses this afternoon. My Xpand 104's are M-3Di compatible, so they should work with the 5010 too.

I ordered the 5010 due to the projector's lumens in 3D mode (per Zombie's posts). Lumens rules in 3D.
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post #569 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I will verify this for you later tonight. Something definitely happens in Dynamic mode since the fans kick up a notch, but 3D cinema looks about the same brightness as the other projectors in their 3D modes (~800-900 lumens).

If you could measure different zoom positions if you have time, much obliged, if not, no big deal. I'd rather use your numbers since the unit I have access to already has over 150 hours on the lamp.

The brightness is near the same as the Sony because the Epson is at a higher zoom position. That's the tricky thing when looking at the calculator's numbers, if you browse fast you'll see MID-ZOOM can make 1 projector appear a lot less bright than another, but mid-zoom on one projector is not the same numerical and throw position and zoom as the next projector. Many projectors are close, but the Epson has a huge zoom range, which means the closer you are the more likely you will get an even larger boost in lumens from the mid-zoom point in which the calculator is based on.

For people mounting the Epson at closest throw, they should get a ridiculously bright light-cannon.

As an example, here are the mid-zoom positions for 120" screen for each projector:
Sony hw30 for 120" diagonal = 15ft 5in
JVC RS-45 = 18ft 1in
Epson 5010 = 18ft 3in

To really know how the differences are in brightness, each projector should be measured at all three zoom positions.


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post #570 of 3270 Old 01-09-2012, 10:02 PM
 
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A quick comment and question for Zombie10K about optimum vertical positioning of lens center with respect to vertical screen center.

First one can safely assume that a lens will give its best optical performance with respect to sharpness, geometry, and focus if the chip image exiting the lens is at lens center. ANSI contrast will be optimized if he chip image is not at lens center but is moved toward the inside of the lens barrel. However, such improvement in contrast would be minor and would be outweighed by the other performance parameters gained by chip image placement at screen center. Nw a projector designer can chose to set up offset so that the chip image is centered vertically at anyplace within the verttical offset range. Normally the lens manufacture wouls choose screen center, halfway between screen center and the extreme end top range, or even at screen top.

Zombie10K. Your Epson and other projectors are set up at approximately center vertical height with respect to your screen. Would you please report with respect to each machine under test, and specifically with respect to the Epson, where the chip image is with your center screen set up? This can be observed just be viewing from the side the exit glass on the lens.
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