JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Please post if you make the switch. I am also toying with the idea of the Epson. I figure with the pre-order price of the RS45 and with low hours I wouldn't be out much if I did decide to change. My biggest concern with the Epson is how much of a difference there is in black levels in 2D (that's one area I'm pretty picky in) vs the RS45 and how long fast bulb dimming will occur using Dynamic mode in 3D. If only the JVCs weren't haunted in 3D!!!



By this comment are you referring to more of an artifact free/cleaner image than the Epson?

I have a 5010 on the way and will drop it in place of the nice RS40 I had last year. So, some subjective feedback from me soon.

I was going with a HW30, but didn't want to wait any longer and I had to see the 5010 in person since staring at Art's screenshots (http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...5010/image.php) that didn't appear much off from the $27k Runco LS10d Go look at the blacklevel comparison there and do some A/B views with the Runco review.

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post #662 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by plasma_novice View Post

Now I'm confused!! :-)

As I understood it, grey screens help with blacks and also minimise reflections back into the room where the decoration is less than ideal, e.g. white walls/ceilings.

It's not too late for me to back out of the purchase, but to be honest I don't think I want to. I've managed to negotiate a good deal for the screen - under US$1,000 for 110" tab tensioned, Screen Line electric screen with IR switch! I saw it last night in a light room with an Epson 3200 projecting (saw Batman Dark Knight, Toy Story 3, some live football (soccer for the US guys) on TV etc.) and was very impressed with the picture that this was giving in 2D and that's with an 1800 lumens PJ. I also noticed that there was very little reflected light from this screen on the side walls and ceiling (both of which were white), which i guess helps with perceived PQ. The 5010/TW9000 has 2200 lumens and having seen it project onto a 110" Draper ReactII grey screen (admittedly this was 1.2 gain) I was blown away by how good the Epson 5010 looks on a grey screen - it was almost plasma quality. The 3D on the Draper screen was also superb and even though the light to the eyes is considerably reduced, I found that the drop didn't really register too much and my brain/eyes quickly adjusted.

You say that the Epson can be operated in modes to overcome negative gain (supposedly Dynamic mode?) - are you saying that this will provide a similar picture to normal/Cinema mode if viewed on a 1.0 gain screen?

Apologies for taking this a little off track, but this thread has given me some fantastic advice and has virtually convinced me to purchase the TW9000/5010, I just need that final little push.

A negative gain gray screen as distinguished from a positive gain white or gray screen, will reduce thr amount of light coming back at you, but the on off contrast ratio will be about the same, the negative gain cutting whites and blacks uniformly. Less bright means less light coming back at you and into the rest of the room dounwhites. By your logic, the perfect solution to your problem would be a screen that sucked up all the light. The same solution, making the projector uniformly dimmer could be accomplished by burning the lamp for a 1000 hours or cranking in a small iris opening or using a neutral density filter. But none of that will really help what the bad room is doing.You will lower the ref black level though just as you could by making the screen bigger. You might ask but I am cutting down the lighting hitting the walls. But you are also reducing the screen brightness by the same amount and the bounce back effects will be the same.
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post #663 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

I have a 5010 on the way and will drop it in place of the nice RS40 I had last year. So, some subjective feedback from me soon.

I was going with a HW30, but didn't want to wait any longer and I had to see the 5010 in person since staring at Art's screenshots (http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...5010/image.php) that didn't appear much off from the $27k Runco LS10d Go look at the blacklevel comparison there and do some A/B views with the Runco review.

I think you will be fine with the Epson, but I am anxious to hear your results. My JVC is only used for movies, and even then I usually only turn it on for higher quality movies, so it's hard to beat a JVC for my uses. I use cheaper projectors for all other viewing. Honestly the second time I saw it I liked it a lot more because I hadn't watched another projector in a while. I still do prefer the JVC for movies, but the Epson was a bit more of an improvement over the 8700ub than I first realized.

I actually watched the Epson for almost 3 hours yesterday, but we only had 45 minutes to do testing (he actually hates it when I test his projectors).


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post #664 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by plasma_novice View Post

Doesn't a high gain screen kill blacks and contrast? As I said, I saw a 1.2 gain grey screen only last week with the Epson TW9000 and even with the lights on in the light demo room, it gave a PQ equivalent to plasma - really outstanding. I can only imagine that a gain of 4.5 or higher (going on VuTec gains) would really mess with whites, blacks and contrast - but that might just be my (very limited) understanding when it comes to screens!

Continuing. A white high gain screen will raise the black and white levels uniformly, once again having no affect on the on off contrast ratio.

But. A high gain screen focuses the available light hitting the screen more towards the center of the screen and less away from the center. To get maximum gain one must sit at horizontal screen center. Move off to the sides and the gain at that point will be less. All screen materials have a half gain angle, that is the number of degrees of center where the gain is half that at center. Without as much light being shot to the sides, a positive gain screen will send less light to those bad white surfaces and with less light hitting them less light will bounce back on the screen washing the blacks out. There are other screen design tricks that can be used too as as with the Stewart Firehawk materials and the Screen Innovations Black Diamond materials.

Now using a gray positive gain screen can improve the blacks while reducing the amount of light shot to thw white room surfaces and reflecting back to the screen. The gray base material must necessarily have a negative gain reducing the black levels but with a well chose sprayed on optical coating the overal gain at the center and bnear center positions can be increased to above one with less to those bad wall surfaces.
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post #665 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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mark - this poor guys head is going to explode.

1.0 vs. 2.8 high power



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post #666 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:32 PM
 
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Plasma Novice. I am not saying you are not getting a great deal or a bad screen, it will improve the blacks but it won't help your room effects a bit. It will cost you needed brightness in 3D too. You wuould be better off by finding a great deal on a positive gain screen.
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post #667 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:40 PM
 
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Zombie there are cetainly benefits to having a louder pair of speakers, whoops I mean a brighter screen but there are indeed costs as are visable in your screen shots. Black detail is less, there are textural screen surface effects, and color shifts. The color shifts can be calibrated out. Of course with your screen size, which if you guys believe meat about 12 feet wide is larger than the size of my mouth, the extra gain rules for 3D.
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post #668 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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that was my old Mitsubishi HC 5500 from a few years ago. it was relatively dim and needed some help from the HP screen.

The torch mode on the HP is something to see with an entire room full of lights, I didn't think it was going to look this bright, but we are talking over 5,000 lumens with max gain.

We need to find a way to get a hold of that filter from Epson that seems to be only avail with the UK units.
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post #669 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 06:03 PM
 
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We need only to find out what the specific filter material is. It is obviously sourced from an OEM filter manufacturer. Perhaps one of our overseas friends can shoot a reference white beam beam through it and measure the spectral change it affects allowing one to source it independentally.
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post #670 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

that was my old Mitsubishi HC 5500 from a few years ago. it was relatively dim and needed some help from the HP screen.

The torch mode on the HP is something to see with an entire room full of lights, I didn't think it was going to look this bright, but we are talking over 5,000 lumens with max gain.

We need to find a way to get a hold of that filter from Epson that seems to be only avail with the UK units.

I am working on it, but it will be a few days before I find out if this is possible.

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post #671 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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post #672 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_...age=Conclusion

In 2D, the X30 is neck-and-neck with this year's crop, and bears striking similarities to the Panasonic AE7000 and Epson 5010 in particular. All three offer detailed, striking images with great black performance, though the X30 edges out the competition in the darkest of scenes. If we were evaluating the X30 solely on its 2D performance, we would give it a higher rating. However, as many people will be buying this projector for its 3D capabilities, its score has been lowered in accordance with its 3D performance.

imo, PC did an honest job highlighting the pros / cons of the RS45/X30. Best in class 2D black levels but the 3D needs an overhaul compared to the competitors.

They focused on the flicker which I first pointed out on the RS40/RS50 (it seems even worse than last year, possibly because it's brighter). Hardly any reviewers discuss this, so kudos to them for bringing it up. The W7000, HW30 and 5010 are a significant improvement in this area for those sensitive to flicker / refresh rate.

competition is strong this year (it was practically nil last year for 3D projectors) so hopefully the R&D guys are already getting started for September, 2012.

with that said.. my dark 2D Sci-Fi does look excellent on the RS55 @ -11.
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post #673 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_...age=Conclusion

In 2D, the X30 is neck-and-neck with this year's crop, and bears striking similarities to the Panasonic AE7000 and Epson 5010 in particular. All three offer detailed, striking images with great black performance, though the X30 edges out the competition in the darkest of scenes. If we were evaluating the X30 solely on its 2D performance, we would give it a higher rating. However, as many people will be buying this projector for its 3D capabilities, its score has been lowered in accordance with its 3D performance.

imo, PC did an honest job highlighting the pros / cons of the RS45/X30. Best in class 2D black levels but the 3D needs an overhaul compared to the competitors.

They focused on the flicker which I first pointed out on the RS40/RS50 (it seems even worse than last year, possibly because it's brighter). Hardly any reviewers discuss this, so kudos to them for bringing it up. The W7000, HW30 and 5010 are a significant improvement in this area for those sensitive to flicker / refresh rate.

competition is strong this year (it was practically nil last year for 3D projectors) so hopefully the R&D guys are already getting started for September, 2012.

with that said.. my dark 2D Sci-Fi does look excellent on the RS55 @ -11.

Art nailed it and lines up with my opinion on these units as well.
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post #674 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 07:42 PM
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I thought the PC review was decent as well, most of it agreed with what I've been saying. I think he is still too optimistic on the Panny 7000, but I guess I am just pickier than most people. The blacks on the Epson are really good, but the whites in the blacks can't quite match the JVC. A bunch of other stuff we all agreed on(Jmalto, Zombie, etc...), but I have to draw the line on a couple points...

The 2D IMO for the Epson was slightly behind on truly reference level discs due to an edgier look. The JVC's noise controls work better than the controls Epson gives you, and the sharpness enhancements are needed slightly more on the Epson than the JVC's sharpness enhancement (at least with my JVC given its near-perfect convergence).

Also, in the movie Blackthorne, the JVC tended to do a bit better even in not completely dark scenes, so again it's just camera work.

Some of my notations could just be unit-to-unit variances, but I think the Epson looked a lot better after adding the video processor to it, it really gave it another notch improvement and made it closer to the JVC.

They are both really good projectors, that's why my 3 favorite projectors this year are the JVC RS-45/55, Sonyhw30/vw95es, and the Epson 5010. Wow not a single DLP is in my favorites list this year, now that's a first. Add the Benq w7000 if they can fix some of the issues, of course I haven't seen the Benq or Sony's yet, but I got a general idea from Zombie.


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post #675 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_...age=Conclusion

In 2D, the X30 is neck-and-neck with this year's crop, and bears striking similarities to the Panasonic AE7000 and Epson 5010 in particular. All three offer detailed, striking images with great black performance, though the X30 edges out the competition in the darkest of scenes. If we were evaluating the X30 solely on its 2D performance, we would give it a higher rating. However, as many people will be buying this projector for its 3D capabilities, its score has been lowered in accordance with its 3D performance.

imo, PC did an honest job highlighting the pros / cons of the RS45/X30. Best in class 2D black levels but the 3D needs an overhaul compared to the competitors.

They focused on the flicker which I first pointed out on the RS40/RS50 (it seems even worse than last year, possibly because it's brighter). Hardly any reviewers discuss this, so kudos to them for bringing it up. The W7000, HW30 and 5010 are a significant improvement in this area for those sensitive to flicker / refresh rate.

competition is strong this year (it was practically nil last year for 3D projectors) so hopefully the R&D guys are already getting started for September, 2012.

with that said.. my dark 2D Sci-Fi does look excellent on the RS55 @ -11.

That was a great writeup. Flicker seems more noticeable to me this year as well which I assume is due to more brightness. I hope these not so glowing 3d reports will get JVCs attention for next year!

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post #676 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 08:10 PM
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That was a great writeup. Flicker seems more noticeable to me this year as well which I assume is due to more brightness. I hope these not so glowing 3d reports will get JVCs attention for next year!

Odd no mention of the hw30 in his write-up...
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post #677 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 08:54 PM
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We should remind the lurkers that all of us are REALLY OCD on this stuff, and differences we see are practically invisible to some, especially if this is your first or second projector. Eventually people turn into videophiles once they live in this forum long enough, but if you are newer, don't even worry about it, just pick the projector that works best in your room and does good 3d if you have an interest in 3d.

JVC does have motorized controls though, and that is a nice touch over the Sony and Epson, but you gotta be pretty lazy for that to bother you too much, it does make it easier to focus without binoculars. The JVC also has the lens memory.


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post #678 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 08:57 PM
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Zombie:

In their review of a EH-TW9000W, Trusted Reviews posted that the projector "...seems to lose focus slightly from time to time, requiring a readjustment".

I believe that this model is a 5010e, here in the US...correct??? Have you noticed any focus issues with the 5010 that you have??? Mine is due on Monday/Tuesday. TIA

http://www.trustedreviews.com/epson-...ojector_review
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post #679 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Zombie:

In their review of a EH-TW9000W, Trusted Reviews posted that the projector "...seems to lose focus slightly from time to time, requiring a readjustment".

I believe that this model is a 5010e, here in the US...correct??? Have you noticed any focus issues with the 5010 that you have??? Mine is due on Monday/Tuesday. TIA

http://www.trustedreviews.com/epson-...ojector_review

I haven't seen this myself, but I am moving from projector to projector, so it's only in 1 spot for a few days. I do find the lens shift is a little finicky to set. Once I am down to the fine tuning, I will put a finger on each control since they interact with each other to get the perfect level on the screen. Once it's there though, I haven't seen it drift.

Did you also order the Epson 3D glasses?
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post #680 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 09:08 PM
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Focus drift can be a single unit issue, I had it on units before that didn't have it after an exchange, it can also be a model wide issue. Please note however that drastic temperature changes in your room from morning to night can cause this as well on almost any projector if the swing is drastic enough.

It can also be caused by shaking or vibrations, someone I know had to remount their projector due to vibrations of someone walking upstairs above the HT room which was downstairs.


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Coderguy, People that hang out here don't turn into videophiles, they [ana]morph into videophiles.
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post #682 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 09:56 PM
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I thought the PC review was decent as well, most of it agreed with what I've been saying. I think he is still too optimistic on the Panny 7000, but I guess I am just pickier than most people...

Have you seen the Panny? Both Art and PC rate it very highly. It seems to have more features than any other projector in the range, Motorized zoom/focus, lens memory, most of the brightness of the 5010, worse blacks in 2D but better in 3D with FI and DI enabled in 3D. Much lower lag and no SDE, at a cost of sharpness I assume, though none of the reviews complained about that. My only hesitation is wanting the brightest 3D where the Epson has a good edge. That and the warranty. Of course if Acer had enabled 1080P120 on their DVI input I would take that despite it's other shortcomings. I mostly game on my projector, and gaming at 1080p in 3D would be my top factor.
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post #683 of 3270 Old 01-11-2012, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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i'd like to see the 7000. What is the situation people are having with the flickering lamps?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21459040
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post #684 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Have you seen the Panny? Both Art and PC rate it very highly. It seems to have more features than any other projector in the range, Motorized zoom/focus, lens memory, most of the brightness of the 5010, worse blacks in 2D but better in 3D with FI and DI enabled in 3D. Much lower lag and no SDE, at a cost of sharpness I assume, though none of the reviews complained about that. My only hesitation is wanting the brightest 3D where the Epson has a good edge. That and the warranty. Of course if Acer had enabled 1080P120 on their DVI input I would take that despite it's other shortcomings. I mostly game on my projector, and gaming at 1080p in 3D would be my top factor.

Yes I have seen it. The Panny's best modes are not nearly as bright as the Epson. Even Art's pre-production measurements shows the Epson about 50% brighter in best mode than the Panny, 50% is a lot. The torch modes might be closer, but Epson is still brighter, and buying a projector based on the torch mode seems like a bad decision.

People making purchasing decisions based on black levels in 3D vs. the Epson, that seems to be ridiculous IMO. The Epson already has enough contrast for 3D, it doesn't even really need the IRIS. The Epson has double the native contrast. I think they are even farther apart now than they were last year, considering how much brighter the Epson is, and the fact the Epson comes with convergence correction. The Epson is a tad sharper, better blacks, brighter, dynamic modes look better, and the Epson has more POP.

Look into the Optoma hd8300 and a gain screen as a potential gaming solution for 3D, although I don't recall if it had other 3D issues besides brightness or not. It should have good blacks as long as the IRIS is working in 3D, overall the projector should be better than the Acer. The Optoma has better blacks than the Panny and has the added advantage of DLP POP.


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post #685 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 03:29 AM
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i'd like to see the 7000. What is the situation people are having with the flickering lamps?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21459040

My brother's just started doing this, I decided to avoid this headache and pass on the panny which is why I tried the 5010 which has its own share of QC issues.

I am passing on the 9500 as well given Acer's response thus far to reported problems. I plan on trying an optoma 3300 out soon even though I really disliked the HD33.
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post #686 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 03:37 AM
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I hope you mean the hd8300, the 3300 is basically the same as the hd33 except it is a little brighter.


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post #687 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I hope you mean the hd8300, the 3300 is basically the same as the hd33 except it is a little brighter.

Nope, 3300. I would take other choices over the 8300 for the prices I've seen.

I picked up a smaller HP screen so I am thinking the added brightness of the 3300 should be a much better setup than what I tested the hd33 on.
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post #688 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

My brother's just started doing this, I decided to avoid this headache and pass on the panny which is why I tried the 5010 which has its own share of QC issues.

I am passing on the 9500 as well given Acer's response thus far to reported problems. I plan on trying an optoma 3300 out soon even though I really disliked the HD33.

there's enough people complaining, it looks like they have an issue that needs to be resolved. the lamp flicker is a deal breaker.

did you get the replacement 5010 yet? curious how the convergence is.
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post #689 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Have you seen the Panny? Both Art and PC rate it very highly. It seems to have more features than any other projector in the range, Motorized zoom/focus, lens memory, most of the brightness of the 5010, worse blacks in 2D but better in 3D with FI and DI enabled in 3D. Much lower lag and no SDE, at a cost of sharpness I assume, though none of the reviews complained about that. My only hesitation is wanting the brightest 3D where the Epson has a good edge. That and the warranty. Of course if Acer had enabled 1080P120 on their DVI input I would take that despite it's other shortcomings. I mostly game on my projector, and gaming at 1080p in 3D would be my top factor.

Please note that Art got 442 calibrated lumens for the Panny in high lamp mode and 630 calibrated lumens for the 5010 in low lamp mode. These are best image mode lumens and the only mode where I would want to compare 2D lumens. This is a huge difference to me.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/pana...nce.php#bright
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...nce.php#bright

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post #690 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 08:58 AM
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http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_...age=Conclusion

In 2D, the X30 is neck-and-neck with this year's crop, and bears striking similarities to the Panasonic AE7000 and Epson 5010 in particular. All three offer detailed, striking images with great black performance, though the X30 edges out the competition in the darkest of scenes. If we were evaluating the X30 solely on its 2D performance, we would give it a higher rating. However, as many people will be buying this projector for its 3D capabilities, its score has been lowered in accordance with its 3D performance.

imo, PC did an honest job highlighting the pros / cons of the RS45/X30. Best in class 2D black levels but the 3D needs an overhaul compared to the competitors.

They focused on the flicker which I first pointed out on the RS40/RS50 (it seems even worse than last year, possibly because it's brighter). Hardly any reviewers discuss this, so kudos to them for bringing it up. The W7000, HW30 and 5010 are a significant improvement in this area for those sensitive to flicker / refresh rate.

competition is strong this year (it was practically nil last year for 3D projectors) so hopefully the R&D guys are already getting started for September, 2012.

with that said.. my dark 2D Sci-Fi does look excellent on the RS55 @ -11.

Why did they take the pot shot at the RS45 at the very end?

" The X30 does command a price premium over its competition, as it sells for $3499 while its competitors sell for $2999 and below. "

Listing MSRP for the RS45 and street price for the Panny. The Panny has the same MSRP as the RS45.

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