JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I read the Projector Central review and they have seemed like Panny fans and from my recollection it has seemed this way last year as well. Having said that their review seemed very fair although you don't really hear much of the bad on the Panasonic in the comparison. The 3D is the biggest disappointment on the JVC and most of us kind of expected this to a certain degree going in. My guess is next time around the 3D will be improved in the JVCs as is on the competing models.

The Sony VW95 sounds like the most well rounded projector however it would still be cheaper to purchase a JVC RS45/Epson 5010 or JVC RS45/Sony HW30 and come out just as good.

Do the Epson projectors hold their value at all? Hmmm... 11 more months and the new JVCs will be out or in 7 months or so the replacement model for the Sony HW30 could be out and the RS45 will likely hold it's value fairly well assuming that the bulbs don't start blowing up on members here in a matter of months...

The VW95 does not cost as much as you think.

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post #722 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The VW95 does not cost as much as you think.

Unless the VW95 dropped in price since I asked last it was just a little more than the pre-order price of the RS45 + the Epson 5010 . If I do decide to switch you'll be getting a call .
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post #723 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Unless the VW95 dropped in price since I asked last it was just a little more than the pre-order price of the RS45 + the Epson 5010 . If I do decide to switch you'll be getting a call .

But the VW95 has it's own problems too and is not the perfect machine. Huh oh, here we go again. You guys gotta get a room.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Zombie update...


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. Early project info. Needs update with final results.
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post #724 of 3270 Old 01-12-2012, 08:39 PM
 
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post #725 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 01:57 AM
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Excellent work. The flicker on the JVC X3 was uncomfortable for me as well, not sure how many sees it, but I'm also surprised it isn't mentioned more often in reviews.

It puzzles me that the DLP camp doesn't challange the LCOS on black level. If they could bring that BL down a few notches and increase contrast a bit - for me atleast - I would choose DLP everytime.

Is the DC4 0.95" really still that expensive to manufacture?
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post #726 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 04:49 AM
 
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There is only one source for the DC4 chip. Since it is the best DLP chip and there is only a sole source the price can be artificially inflated by the manufacturer/provider of the chip and can be even more inflated for 3 chip sets and drivers. There is no competition other than going to other technologies and even when the patents expire with respect to DLP technology there is not enough of a market to foster competition in DLP chip design and manufacturering (Chinese DLP chip manufacture).
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post #727 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 05:51 AM
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I guess they know exactly what to charge for it, but it's a shame we aren't seeing cheaper DC4 designs, let alone 3 chip. As far as I can tell the Runco LS-10 might be the cheapets 3 chip and it uses the 0.65" DC3 as I recall.

I haven't seen the DC4 chip in action to be honest and I am running a DC3 0.65" in my own projector at the moment.

Maybe 1 chip LED DC4 0.95" will be our salvation:=) (preferably cheaper than they are now!)
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post #728 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clausdk View Post

Excellent work. The flicker on the JVC X3 was uncomfortable for me as well, not sure how many sees it, but I'm also surprised it isn't mentioned more often in reviews.

It puzzles me that the DLP camp doesn't challange the LCOS on black level. If they could bring that BL down a few notches and increase contrast a bit - for me atleast - I would choose DLP everytime.

Is the DC4 0.95" really still that expensive to manufacture?

Does DC4 have more pixel fill (i.e. smaller gaps between mirrors?). I understood that the difficulty with black level was intrinsic to DLP technology due to one of the things that people normally like about it, the hard pixel edges.
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post #729 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 08:40 AM
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I think Mitsu's Laservue rear projectors look amazing. I would love a front projector version of that. I am not sure why they can't go front projection now.

I saw they announced 55" Oled screens. Someday in the not distant future projectors will be obsolete when they can just print a 120" Quantum Dot screen.
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post #730 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 08:50 AM
 
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The primary advantage of the DC4 chip is its increased contrast of about 30% more though it is unclear to me whether that is on off or ANSI or both. There is also a decided advantage to the larger size of that chip all things being equal because it is easier to achieve high backplane focus of the chip by the lens. The same level of back plane focus can be achieved with the smaller chip but more more must be spent on the lens to achieve it. The contrast advantage has got to do with leakage or scatter between the mirrors (pixels). Its been a while since we have discussed all this when the DC4 chip came out and my memory is a little foogy on the exact details.
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post #731 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

The contrast advantage has got to do with leakage or scatter between the mirrors (pixels).

That is exactly what I suspected and makes absolute sense.
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post #732 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 09:11 AM
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So it sounds like a few people are having lens problems on the 5010 forum. So Marc, If we buy a 5010 from you, can we bribe you to crack it open and test it before shipping it?
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post #734 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 10:08 AM
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zombie any chance you can update the post with the Epson 5010 numbers and pics this weekend .. I know your busy and we all really appreciate your review.. Since its so hard to demo these projectors I am going to be buying unseen based on your review.. so just holding out .. thank you.
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post #735 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS RULZ View Post

zombie any chance you can update the post with the Epson 5010 numbers and pics this weekend .. I know your busy and we all really appreciate your review.. Since its so hard to demo these projectors I am going to be buying unseen based on your review.. so just holding out .. thank you.

Hi, I should be able to get it finished before the weekend. I have to finish taking the photos tonight of the various scenes through the glasses and i'll update it as soon as possible.


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post #736 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 11:40 AM
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Anyone heard much about the new Charcol 125i projector? It's a new standard definition unit that seems to hold its own.

I found this review at truthejections.com and wanted to share.

From the review...

So let's just jump right in. One great feature of the Charcoal 125i is that it is perfect in every single way straight out of the box. Truthjections.com took no measurements as none were needed to shown this. The manual stated the normal mode (coal black) was both REC 709 and 6500K. Talk about a solid performer.

It's understood that sharpness is a bad thing and as a result, Charcoal 125i doesn't fail to satisfy. The well known story of Epsony's first generation Razor projector is worth repeating here. Owners were initially impressed by the sharpness of the Razor. But after 50 to 100 hours on the lamp, many owners noticed thin slices appearing on their screens. MrKitKat even reported that the Razor's sharpness had cut through his DIY drywall screen and a portion of the bird cage nearby. The Charcoal 125i isn't as sharp as most others, and that's a plus.

The brightness of a projector, it's important to discuss, that many times a viewer will see light, not from the projector, rather it is from room objects, such as lamps, causes image dimness, and often is blamed on the projector itself. We here at Truthjections.com recognize that household lamps are not projectors and use of a household lamp along with the Charcoal 125i is not recommended. Charcoal 125i has just enough lumens to fill a 42 4:3 screen. The RS45 doesn't support 4:3 screens, giving the Charcoal 125i a definitive edge.

Image quality aside, the Charcoal 125i beats all other projectors. The black power plug is of the highest quality and the lack of any included cables should be applauded since it gives the AV enthusiast the choice to purchase their own without the constraint of a prepackaged cable.

Using Truthjections.com's standard comparison methodology, I used my iPhone 3 camera and did a digital analysis to determine contrast ratios. At Truthjections.com we pride ourselves in this methodology. Other review sites give subjective and non-numerological results. Knowing that a number is always best, regardless of how it was derived, we give you numbers.

Looking at the JPEG, we see that black has the RGB value (0,0,0). In the same JPEG, after using our photo editor's auto leveling tool, white had the RGB value (255,255,255). At the time of writing, a problem I was having doing the contrast calculation prevented me from including the value here. The calculation kept reporting not a number for the contrast ratio. Needless to say, without a doubt, one gets excellent contrast with the Charcoal 125i.

When comparing the warranty of the Charcoal 125i to the Epson 5010, I'm happy to report that Charcoal 125i wins no hold barred. While the Charcoal 125i has no warranty, the 3 people I've spoken with that have seen pictures of the Charcoal 125i in a catalog reported no problems. I'd rather have a projector that works than one with a warranty, implying it will break. The Charcoal 125i is clearly ideally superior in terms of warranty to the 5010.

When it comes to 3D performance, the ghosting performance of the HW30 is among the best. The Charcoal 125i is certainly right among the HW30 when I place the two projectors side by side, in close proximity, almost touching, like good friends, or at least like in a packed room. I choose not to use the 3D glasses and just watch the image from the Charcoal 125i. It was very bright, but then again, not the bad brightness type of brightness you don't want.

Note that you should use 1 foot HDMI cable, or shorter, with the Charcoal 125i in order to ensure lag of 250 ms isn't visible in YouTube videos. We don't talk about lag in our reviews, however, so this paragraph should be edited out. XXX note, remove XXX

The Charcoal 125i is a projector that could only be dreamed of back in the Middle Ages by pirates and nights in shining armor. Luckily for us, it's available now.

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post #737 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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since when is friday the 13th the new April 1st?


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post #738 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Anyone heard much about the new Charcol 125i projector? It's a new standard definition unit that seems to hold its own.

I found this review at truthejections.com and wanted to share.

From the review...

So let's just jump right in. One great feature of the Charcoal 125i is that it is perfect in every single way straight out of the box. Truthjections.com took no measurements as none were needed to shown this. The manual stated the normal mode (coal black) was both REC 709 and 6500K. Talk about a solid performer.

It's understood that sharpness is a bad thing and as a result, Charcoal 125i doesn't fail to satisfy. The well known story of Epsony's first generation Razor projector is worth repeating here. Owners were initially impressed by the sharpness of the Razor. But after 50 to 100 hours on the lamp, many owners noticed thin slices appearing on their screens. MrKitKat even reported that the Razor's sharpness had cut through his DIY drywall screen and a portion of the bird cage nearby. The Charcoal 125i isn't as sharp as most others, and that's a plus.

The brightness of a projector, it's important to discuss, that many times a viewer will see light, not from the projector, rather it is from room objects, such as lamps, causes image dimness, and often is blamed on the projector itself. We here at Truthjections.com recognize that household lamps are not projectors and use of a household lamp along with the Charcoal 125i is not recommended. Charcoal 125i has just enough lumens to fill a 42 4:3 screen. The RS45 doesn't support 4:3 screens, giving the Charcoal 125i a definitive edge.

Image quality aside, the Charcoal 125i beats all other projectors. The black power plug is of the highest quality and the lack of any included cables should be applauded since it gives the AV enthusiast the choice to purchase their own without the constraint of a prepackaged cable.

Using Truthjections.com's standard comparison methodology, I used my iPhone 3 camera and did a digital analysis to determine contrast ratios. At Truthjections.com we pride ourselves in this methodology. Other review sites give subjective and non-numerological results. Knowing that a number is always best, regardless of how it was derived, we give you numbers.

Looking at the JPEG, we see that black has the RGB value (0,0,0). In the same JPEG, after using our photo editor's auto leveling tool, white had the RGB value (255,255,255). At the time of writing, a problem I was having doing the contrast calculation prevented me from including the value here. The calculation kept reporting not a number for the contrast ratio. Needless to say, without a doubt, one gets excellent contrast with the Charcoal 125i.

When comparing the warranty of the Charcoal 125i to the Epson 5010, I'm happy to report that Charcoal 125i wins no hold barred. While the Charcoal 125i has no warranty, the 3 people I've spoken with that have seen pictures of the Charcoal 125i in a catalog reported no problems. I'd rather have a projector that works than one with a warranty, implying it will break. The Charcoal 125i is clearly ideally superior in terms of warranty to the 5010.

When it comes to 3D performance, the ghosting performance of the HW30 is among the best. The Charcoal 125i is certainly right among the HW30 when I place the two projectors side by side, in close proximity, almost touching, like good friends, or at least like in a packed room. I choose not to use the 3D glasses and just watch the image from the Charcoal 125i. It was very bright, but then again, not the bad brightness type of brightness you don't want.

Note that you should use 1 foot HDMI cable, or shorter, with the Charcoal 125i in order to ensure lag of 250 ms isn't visible in YouTube videos. We don't talk about lag in our reviews, however, so this paragraph should be edited out. XXX note, remove XXX

The Charcoal 125i is a projector that could only be dreamed of back in the Middle Ages by pirates and nights in shining armor. Luckily for us, it's available now.

Huh? Wha?
Enter Twilight zone...

2014
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post #739 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 12:10 PM
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DarkChip 4 is 5 year old technology... amazing that it would still hold up.

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post #740 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Anyone heard much about the new Charcol 125i projector? It's a new standard definition unit that seems to hold its own.

I found this review at truthejections.com and wanted to share.

From the review...

So let's just jump right in. One great feature of the Charcoal 125i is that it is perfect in every single way straight out of the box. Truthjections.com took no measurements as none were needed to shown this. The manual stated the normal mode (coal black) was both REC 709 and 6500K. Talk about a solid performer.

It's understood that sharpness is a bad thing and as a result, Charcoal 125i doesn't fail to satisfy. The well known story of Epsony's first generation Razor projector is worth repeating here. Owners were initially impressed by the sharpness of the Razor. But after 50 to 100 hours on the lamp, many owners noticed thin slices appearing on their screens. MrKitKat even reported that the Razor's sharpness had cut through his DIY drywall screen and a portion of the bird cage nearby. The Charcoal 125i isn't as sharp as most others, and that's a plus.

The brightness of a projector, it's important to discuss, that many times a viewer will see light, not from the projector, rather it is from room objects, such as lamps, causes image dimness, and often is blamed on the projector itself. We here at Truthjections.com recognize that household lamps are not projectors and use of a household lamp along with the Charcoal 125i is not recommended. Charcoal 125i has just enough lumens to fill a 42 4:3 screen. The RS45 doesn't support 4:3 screens, giving the Charcoal 125i a definitive edge.

Image quality aside, the Charcoal 125i beats all other projectors. The black power plug is of the highest quality and the lack of any included cables should be applauded since it gives the AV enthusiast the choice to purchase their own without the constraint of a prepackaged cable.

Using Truthjections.com's standard comparison methodology, I used my iPhone 3 camera and did a digital analysis to determine contrast ratios. At Truthjections.com we pride ourselves in this methodology. Other review sites give subjective and non-numerological results. Knowing that a number is always best, regardless of how it was derived, we give you numbers.

Looking at the JPEG, we see that black has the RGB value (0,0,0). In the same JPEG, after using our photo editor's auto leveling tool, white had the RGB value (255,255,255). At the time of writing, a problem I was having doing the contrast calculation prevented me from including the value here. The calculation kept reporting not a number for the contrast ratio. Needless to say, without a doubt, one gets excellent contrast with the Charcoal 125i.

When comparing the warranty of the Charcoal 125i to the Epson 5010, I'm happy to report that Charcoal 125i wins no hold barred. While the Charcoal 125i has no warranty, the 3 people I've spoken with that have seen pictures of the Charcoal 125i in a catalog reported no problems. I'd rather have a projector that works than one with a warranty, implying it will break. The Charcoal 125i is clearly ideally superior in terms of warranty to the 5010.

When it comes to 3D performance, the ghosting performance of the HW30 is among the best. The Charcoal 125i is certainly right among the HW30 when I place the two projectors side by side, in close proximity, almost touching, like good friends, or at least like in a packed room. I choose not to use the 3D glasses and just watch the image from the Charcoal 125i. It was very bright, but then again, not the bad brightness type of brightness you don't want.

Note that you should use 1 foot HDMI cable, or shorter, with the Charcoal 125i in order to ensure lag of 250 ms isn't visible in YouTube videos. We don't talk about lag in our reviews, however, so this paragraph should be edited out. XXX note, remove XXX

The Charcoal 125i is a projector that could only be dreamed of back in the Middle Ages by pirates and nights in shining armor. Luckily for us, it's available now.


This projector company sounds like Bernie Madoff was part of the financing of this story. Is it April 1st already?
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post #741 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 01:03 PM
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DarkChip 4 is 5 year old technology... amazing that it would still hold up.

Having owned 2 Darkchip 4 projectors...
I would say the other technologies still need to catch up...


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post #742 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 01:34 PM
 
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My friend is trying to start a flame war.

It is a shame that TI doesn't have the economic incentive to continue r&d to make a better chip, the DC5. The chip is old but its performance still holds up.

It performs better in some ways than LCDs (reflective or transmissive) and such chips outperform it in other ways. Without giving the specifics, that sums it up.
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post #743 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 01:45 PM
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The Infocus IN83 wasn't that expensive was it, and that used the DC4.

I can understand TI not wasting money on R&D for home projectors and RPTV's since both are a small market, but are TI making any improvements in their commercial cinema projector chips? Strange if that is the case and it's not flowing down into the home market. Also I wonder if they didn't see the 3D craze coming.. because if they would have made some improvement to contrast, and with their clear advantage for 3D, they would really blow away the competition.

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post #744 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 01:57 PM
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There are limitations in the way DLP works, and the problem now is you need it brighter for 3D which is a contradiction for DLP to maintain higher native on/off. The actual chip choice (DC2,3,4) is only a part of a larger piece of what actually makes up a DLP's contrast.

For current production devices used in single-panel systems, the most significant factors influencing system contrast ratio are:
illumination angle, mirror gap (related to mirror tilt angle), numerical aperture, and optical design/coating quality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source - Texas Instruments: http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/dlpdmd/Discoverydlpa002.pdf
(PAGE 23 onward describes the DLP contrast problem)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is actually because higher-end projectors also have other higher-end parts in them, then just that they use DC4 that the contrast is increased more due to the other factors instead of just the DC 4 chip, yes the DC 4 chip is part of it, but 20% to 40% increase in contrast is in optimal conditions, if you took the same projector and replaced the chip down to Dc 3 but kept the other parts, the difference would more than likely be less.



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post #745 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 02:15 PM
 
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I heard a rumor that they laid off most of its R&D development team a while back. They had started on R & D on a 2.35 chip but canned it due to the limited sales potential. Once again just reporting on rumors, I know nothing as a fact.
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I heard a rumor that they laid off most of its R&D development team a while back. They had started on R & D on a 2.35 chip but canned it due to the limited sales potential. Once again just reporting on rumors, I know nothing as a fact.

The original engineering team no doubt retired and TI lost its expertize. The almost sold of the DLP group a few years ago. Now they are profitable. The author of the paper reaches the wrong conclusion and glad he retired:

TI Document Quote:
"4.3.4 Image Quality
It is important to understand the product application for the projection-lens requirements. For example, computer graphics use demands sharp pixel-edge definitions, requiring higher MTF specifications (see section 3.2) than video lenses. This is because meaningful data is mapped pixel-to-pixel from the source to the screen. By comparison, video-only applications actually perform better if the pixel-edge definition is smoothed or blended to be less noticeable. This means MTF requirements can be relaxed significantly, because it is rare that meaningful video image data is contained at the Nyquist resolution frequency. Likewise, misconvergence usually is less noticeable in video images (for CRT and three-panel displays), so lateral color effects also are likely to be less noticeable and may be relaxed. Cost tradeoffs can be made by considering expected applications in this manner."

Obviously the Sony 30 engineers (led by Sir Howard Stingier) used this as their guide. With rationalizations such as this it no wonder all progress in DLP technology came to a standstill. NTSC era idiots?

Seriously, how about animation where there is no sampling with its filtering?
Or home theater computers which interchangeable use all types of digital data?
Of course the best DLP projectors all use camera quality glass lens with Extra low Dispersion (ED) lens.
The fact is today the best digital movies look like high quality photographs, but with movement. Very impressive indeed!
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post #747 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 03:48 PM
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There is truth to the MTF isssue but it is partly subjective, but the paper was a correlation of stuff from TI and several authors, not just one, and generally the paper is accurate with a few issues when the guy talks about gaming and what not. He was obviously an engineer and not a gamer and didn't understand everything in a non-engineering sense, but it was still a good paper. Criticizing the paper serves no purpose as some of the info came from the chief engineers and none of us in here are at a level high enough to even critique the work, so it is what it is.



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for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #748 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 07:37 PM
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Zombie:

I did order a pair of Epson's 3D glasses with the projector. Due date is the 17th (next Tuesday). I also have a pair of Xpand 104's that should work.

OT:

What's your take on the new Sharp XV-Z30000 3D DLP projector??? It should ship next month for $4500.

The projector has a center-mounted, long throw lens with horizontal and vertical lens shift, and motorized focus and zoom. Ships with two pairs of active glasses and an emitter.

Anyone with more info (lumens, zoom, etc)???


http://www.hometheater.com/content/s...-dlp-projector
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post #749 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 10:45 PM
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Buying my first projector, likely the 6010. May have to settle for the wireless HDMI connectors (like the one on Monoprice) due to practical issues with running a cable from AV receiver to the PJ. Any thoughts or advice on these from experienced members? Any help appreciated. thanks
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post #750 of 3270 Old 01-13-2012, 11:08 PM
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Buying my first projector, likely the 6010. May have to settle for the wireless HDMI connectors (like the one on Monoprice) due to practical issues with running a cable from AV receiver to the PJ. Any thoughts or advice on these from experienced members? Any help appreciated. thanks

Buy the 5010e with included wireless
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