JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

I concur, I almost spit my coffee out reading comments of this projector being loud in high lamp.LMAO

Apparently none of these folks have used DLPs.

Hey, my Pannasonic plasma sits 15ft away, but it's cooling fans still irritate me in quiet scenes. Having a PJ immediately overhead is going to be a noise problem in most cases. There is a threshold level I'm willing to live with, without resorting to using a hushbox. I think the RS40 in 3D mode was about as loud as I can handle comfortably.


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post #932 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

On the RS40 I used CMD 3 all the time. I like a fairly smooth pan and motion. With the 5010 last night, I found it wasn't needed for almost all content (only enabled for hockey).

Resident Evil 3D has a ton of fast motion, panning, dark on white, white on dark scenes (which is why I used it as a benchmark), but it looked great without FI available. I think it's sort of like complaining about not getting reference level blacks in 3D all the while you're wearing shutter glasses - it's meaningless if it's not a real factor. The lack of ghosting on the 5010 probalby cleans up the image a lot more than using FI in conjunction with blurry frames.

this topic is going to be in my final comments on the 5010's 3D performance. While the FI is a nice option (I like it on the HW30), I don't feel it's entirely necessary on the 5010 in 3D since motion in fast action scenes looks good to my eyes.

I couldn't find any noticeable ghosting in Final Destination 5 (shot in native 3D) and it was filled with high contrast scenes. The 5010 is also quite sharp in 3D which is a nice treat. It's significantly sharper than the Acer 5360 on my 142" screen.

I think Epson did a very good job on their first attempt at 3D, they must have done some homework or reading of the forums to see what people's complaints were. they kill with the lumen output in 3D, that's for certain.


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post #933 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

Hey, my Pannasonic plasma sits 15ft away, but it's cooling fans still irritate me in quiet scenes. Having a PJ immediately overhead is going to be a noise problem in most cases. There is a threshold level I'm willing to live with, without resorting to using a hushbox. I think the RS40 in 3D mode was about as loud as I can handle comfortably.

Wow you have super human hearing. Kidding..I can hear my plasma as well.
When watching movies, its not something I'm trying to listen for though.
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post #934 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 01:16 PM
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I think CMD3 on the JVC RS45 works fairly well, better than I recall on the RS40. I suspect they've made a few improvements. I'd never before seen a frame interpolation system that I liked. There were always either strange artifacts (similar to MPEG blocking) or unnatural motion. I turned on CMD3 on the RS45 the other day for a Blu-ray disc, and then forgot it was on. In other words, it didn't call attention to itself. That's refreshing.

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post #935 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I think CMD3 on the JVC RS45 works fairly well, better than I recall on the RS40. I suspect they've made a few improvements. I'd never before seen a frame interpolation system that I liked. There were always either strange artifacts (similar to MPEG blocking) or unnatural motion. I turned on CMD3 on the RS45 the other day for a Blu-ray disc, and then forgot it was on. In other words, it didn't call attention to itself. That's refreshing.

I cant tell ANY difference from the 40 to the 45 with CMD3. What improvements are you seeing?

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post #936 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 01:44 PM
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It's been a long time since I used it on the RS40, so it's possible I'm mis-remembering. What I recall doing with the RS40 was trying the different forms, and then turning them off. I've done the same thing on my Samsungs and the Panasonic 4000. With the RS45, CMD3 seemed to smooth the motion subtly, without looking unnatural. I don't recall seeing any blocking-type artifacts around edges, or any freaky motion effects. My Samsung created such funky motion that I nearly got nauseous. At any rate, FI isn't a huge attraction for me.

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post #937 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 01:45 PM
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I would like a 5000 lumen projector with a 7x gain 100" screen and then I'll consider 3D bright enough :P
In brightest mode, that'd be right at the equivalent of 35,000 lumens or 1,100 fL on a 100" for 2D. Man I wonder if that actually could blind someone, that would be funny (scary?) to be in a room with that setup.

CMD 3 still has the video look, although the FI was better than some of the older LCD's I've seen FI on, but it's not as good as the newer FI's on some projectors.

Sony FI and Panny FI > Epson FI > Benq FI > JVC FI > ?



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post #938 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

this topic is going to be in my final comments on the 5010's 3D performance. While the FI is a nice option (I like it on the HW30), I don't feel it's entirely necessary on the 5010 in 3D since motion in fast action scenes looks good to my eyes.

I couldn't find any noticeable ghosting in Final Destination 5 (shot in native 3D) and it was filled with high contrast scenes. The 5010 is also quite sharp in 3D which is a nice treat. It's significantly sharper than the Acer 5360 on my 142" screen.

I think Epson did a very good job on their first attempt at 3D, they must have done some homework or reading of the forums to see what people's complaints were. they kill with the lumen output in 3D, that's for certain.

Thanks Jason. So it looks like we're saying the same thing about the 5010's sharpness vs. the need on other machines for FI in all modes. Good to know.

If my screen was 2x brighter (2.6 gain instead of 1.3) I'd probalby been gabbing about the incredible brightness. As it is, my 1.3 currently @ 21.5ft to a 110" is fine. I plan to move to a 11.5ft throw distance (10ft closer) in the future, and that should increase the lumens substantially (>25%). I haven't metered anything yet... running out of assessment time.


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post #939 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I would like a 5000 lumen projector with a 7x gain 100" screen and then I'll consider 3D bright enough :P

I know you're exaggerating but things are mighty well illuminated here. 114" 2.8 HP, 5010 shelf mount, just watched A Christmas Carol 3D and the first appearance of the brilliantly glowing ghost of Christmas past was truly blinding, didn't dare take off the glasses, loved it. After trying an RS40, HD33, and Panny 7000, I think, despite occasional crosstalk, that I'm finally going to be able to live with this one. Well done Epson.
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post #940 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 03:19 PM
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Couple more things about the 5010 experience:

1. Did anyone with a 5010 get a User Manual in the box?


2. The 3D emitter worked fine with the Epson glasses, even at a 21.5ft throw distance and the MV3D IR dongle hanging directly in front of the 5010's built in emitter. As long as the glasses were in some reflective exposure, they operated in synch, even from 30 ft away in another room area adjacent.


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post #941 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidwiz View Post

I much prefer the significantly less ghosting of the 5010 over the FI of the Panasonic.

That seems quite strange that the Panny would ghost so much more. It uses the same 480hz Epson LCD panels. Strange
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post #942 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

Couple more things about the 5010 experience:

1. Did anyone with a 5010 get a User Manual in the box?


No
You can download it here if you need it.
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...3&infoType=Doc

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post #943 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post

That seems quite strange that the Panny would ghost so much more. It uses the same 480hz Epson LCD panels. Strange

Doesn't the Epson 3010 use the same panels and it has ghosting?

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post #944 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 04:46 PM
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No
You can download it here if you need it.
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...3&infoType=Doc

Yeah, my fingers ain't broken. Just wondering if it should have been included. I'd rather not print out an 84 page UG if I don't need to.


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post #945 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post

That seems quite strange that the Panny would ghost so much more. It uses the same 480hz Epson LCD panels. Strange

Strange, but true. Had to get my courage up to try the same panels again.
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post #946 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

Yeah, my fingers ain't broken. Just wondering if it should have been included. I'd rather not print out an 84 page UG if I don't need to.

Ya, everyone is trying to save trees these days and save money on printing manuals.

You could just use/buy a tablet and open the PDF when you are near the projector or need to reference something. Not cheap but convenient to have all manuals available on a single source.

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post #947 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 05:35 PM
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Doesn't the Epson 3010 use the same panels and it has ghosting?

The Panny, 3010 & 5010 all share the same LCD panels but I suspect the HW/processing is different between the models. They also use different lenses.

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post #948 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by whizzpop View Post

Many peoples bought ae7000u costantly praise of FI in 3D..
(especially FI mode 3)

It looks like a REAL WINDOWS. everything moves so real..
I'm so so curious about it


This is one major reason why I hesitate btw 5010e vs ae7000u

The Sony HW30 also allows FI in 3D and has reports of minimal ghosting in 3D also.

I'm also considering the Epson 5010 as well and while it gets good reviews I'm gathering from everyone's posts (and from Zombie's impression) that it is somewhat of a step down in 2D from the JVC. It's just unfortunate this year that whatever route you take you have to give up some fundamental PQ feature when choosing a projector (Epson has no DI or FI in 3D but spanks the JVC but, the JVC is the 2D PQ king in this price range but brings up the rear in 3D, the Sony HW30 is a nice overall unit but lacks DI in 3D, and black levels on an HP screen are lacking for those who crave deep black levels).
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post #949 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 07:12 PM
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Hi guys. Amazing thread and wonderful information here. Kudos to zombie and everyone!!

I am a total noob. I am looking for advice on which screen is a best fit with 5010?

I will most likely need something that can give me the most brightness as i have whitel walls and a lot of ambient light. I read people reference DaLite screens here. Is 2.8 gain the maxiumum?

I am looking for 120' 16:9 screen. Electronically retractable to hide it when not used. I hope i am not hijacking i couldnt resist to ask to "masters of projectors" after seeing so much knowledge being displayed
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post #950 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

The Sony HW30 also allows FI in 3D and has reports of minimal ghosting in 3D also.

I'm also considering the Epson 5010 as well and while it gets good reviews I'm gathering from everyone's posts (and from Zombie's impression) that it is somewhat of a step down in 2D from the JVC. It's just unfortunate this year that whatever route you take you have to give up some fundamental PQ feature when choosing a projector (Epson has no DI or FI in 3D but spanks the JVC but, the JVC is the 2D PQ king in this price range but brings up the rear in 3D, the Sony HW30 is a nice overall unit but lacks DI in 3D, and black levels on an HP screen are lacking for those who crave deep black levels).

If the Epson is just a step down from the JVC in 2D then there's nothing to worry about, specially if you count how many steps there are to get there.

Do not steal, The powers that be do not like the competition.
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post #951 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

The panasonic has lower input lag for gaming. My brother has it and I have the Epson 5010. The Epson is far from unplayable and is perfectly fine if you are not going online and expecting to be the world's #1 best player. You can feel the lag in some games and not others, but again, it doesn't make the Epson unplayable by any means. I have tested well over 20 games on the 5010 and only 1 game did I have a hard time with it and it was the new Duke Nukem game (which sucks anyways.)

Zombie - I just pulled the trigger on the Acer H9500BD, tired of waiting on BenQ to release the new update and I need a unit for my secondary room. I'll let you know how it is (should be here tomorrow.)

good deal, curious to hear what you think about it. I'd like to know how the black level is compared to the W7000. Kraine seems to like the 9500. I've seen the videos with the SBS gaming tearing, has Acer acknowledged the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Got a TW9000 (i.e. 5010) for a review earlier today. After a short first session I'm pretty impressed. Hugely better crosstalk performance than on TW6000 (i.e. 3010). One disappointment so far: for some reason I was under the impression that TW9000 has interpolation for 3D, but nope :/

Oh yeah, also received Xpand X104 glasses today. They work fine with the Epson; they even support the glasses brightness setting properly.

Petri - how do you think the 5010's 3D is compared to the other projectors you've seen recently? it would be great if they could turn on the FI and DI in 3D. Any chance you received that special color filter Epson I saw on Cine4home's preview?



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post #952 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ozer19 View Post

Hi guys. Amazing thread and wonderful information here. Kudos to zombie and everyone!!

I am a total noob. I am looking for advice on which screen is a best fit with 5010?

I will most likely need something that can give me the most brightness as i have whitel walls and a lot of ambient light. I read people reference DaLite screens here. Is 2.8 gain the maxiumum?

I am looking for 120' 16:9 screen. Electronically retractable to hide it when not used. I hope i am not hijacking i couldnt resist to ask to "masters of projectors" after seeing so much knowledge being displayed

this is a good 'catch all' thread for comparisons, screen discussion, etc. The HP used to be available in 2.8, but the current screens are the 2.4 gain which have some advantages such as a wider viewing angle and some flexibility with the projector placement.

With an HP screen, the idea is to get the projector mounted as close to eye level as possible for maximum gain. This isn't practical for a number of setups, but if you can make it work, it certainly helps with the 5010's 'living room' mode and watching in ambient light.

I just installed a 2.4 for a friend with a low ceiling mount in his basement and it looks great. We're probably getting ~ 1.8, but every bit helps especially with 3D.


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post #953 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

With an HP screen, the idea is to get the projector mounted as close to eye level as possible for maximum gain. This isn't practical for a number of setups, but if you can make it work, it certainly helps with the 5010's 'living room' mode and watching in ambient light.

I just installed a 2.4 for a friend with a low ceiling mount in his basement and it looks great. We're probably getting ~ 1.8, but every bit helps especially with 3D.

How far is it mounted above "eye level"? I eliminated the 2.4 HP as a possibility for me because I thought the projector had to sit at eye level. Mine is to be mounted from the ceiling in the basement about 6" below the top of the screen.

Is there any hot spots at that height?

Thanks.
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post #954 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The 5010 is also quite sharp in 3D which is a nice treat. It's significantly sharper than the Acer 5360 on my 142" screen.

All I can say is hmmmm. A 3LCD panel unit vs a single DLP. I suspect that may have a lot to do with 720P vs 1080P on a huge screen but again hmmmm.
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post #955 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:05 PM
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Cheap Acer's aren't exceptionally sharp for a DLP, not all DLP's have the same sharpness but 720p is part of it, some Acer models are sharper than others though. If you want sharp, Benq and Mits make the sharpest DLP's out of the ones being discussed here.



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post #956 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

I concur, I almost spit my coffee out reading comments of this projector being loud in high lamp.LMAO

Apparently none of these folks have used DLPs.

When you read the forum, you should have you seat belt firmly fastened and have your drink in a no spill container. When you are thinking about posting, you should look in both directions and be sure your brain is in gear.
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post #957 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

How far is it mounted above "eye level"? I eliminated the 2.4 HP as a possibility for me because I thought the projector had to sit at eye level. Mine is to be mounted from the ceiling in the basement about 6" below the top of the screen.

Is there any hot spots at that height?

Thanks.

Its not a question of hotspotting if you mount it significantly higher than your eyes. Where are your eyes off the floor compatred to how high the projector lens center is when hanging upside down on the ceiling. Also you have to consider the angle your eyes are looking up at the screen. The higher above your eyes the projector is, the less gain you will get from the 2.4 max available. It is by far not the ideal screen surface for many of the aspects important to a high quality picture. But it isn't really bad in any area and does provide for a big boost in gain if you can mount the projector near your eye level. If you are looking at the screen say at mid screen and your projector is say 27 inches above that (say for a 54 x 96), I would choose another fabric which would give about the same gain as the HP under that situation but which would have better flatness and less color bleed and color shift.
Also the more gain, the more you will raise the ref black level although the on off contrat ratio will remain the same.
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post #958 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:36 PM
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Cheap Acer's aren't exceptionally sharp for a DLP, not all DLP's have the same sharpness, some Acer models are sharper than others though.
If you want sharp, Benq and Mits make the sharpest DLP's.

Really? Better than Sim2 or Runco? All BS aside I will let you know what I think of the Acer as will jmalto I am sure. It only needs to be sharp enough for me. My point was that he was comparing a 1080 picture to a 720 one on a very large screen. What can one expect?
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post #959 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Cheap Acer's aren't exceptionally sharp for a DLP, not all DLP's have the same sharpness, some Acer models are sharper than others though.
If you want sharp, Benq and Mits make the sharpest DLP's.

The BenQ was as sharp as the W6000 and SP890, I am guessing they are using the same lens. jmalto is getting the 9500 tomorrow, curious to hear his thoughts on the W7000 vs. the 9500.

Mike - the comment was a bit of a joke towards DejaVu, I didn't mean for it to be taken seriously. I like the Acer, I can't get rid of it for some reason since it was a lot of fun seeing 3D on a big screen for the first time.

what is going on with the 9500 3D gaming / tearing? it's not clear in the video if it's minor, or something they need to fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3I7WhRMVro


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post #960 of 3270 Old 01-19-2012, 09:58 PM
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Well, for screens for 3D high gain is very desirable. I really like my Vutec Silverstar. It has high gain like the High Power, but is angular reflective so you can ceiling, or high shelf mount your projector, so people aren't constantly getting in the way. Maybe that is just my problem since my kids seem to have itchy rears and need to get up constantly. The silverstar isn't retractable, but is so pretty you won't want to. With my 2500 lumen Acer in 2D it is blinding. In 3D it is just right. Of course that is why I think a good 2D/3D projector needs a much dimmer 2D mode than 3D. The Panny and Epson are the only choices there, and I prefer the Panny's dimmer 2D mode and smoothscreen filter, but the brighter 3D, and better blacks in 2D, and much better warranty are leading me in the Epson's direction. Also I can always pick up another in the future and some SPAR linear filters and do passive.
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