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post #1081 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 12:56 PM
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I haven't been hanging around in this forum for awhile, so I just read this entire thread. Some random thoughts:

1. First of all, GREAT JOB, Jason! And your review comes off as very unbiased and fair - a breath of fresh air.

2. I don't understand why everyone is so enamored by the JVCs when it comes to 2D performance - I owned an RS1 (not very good projector at all) and currently own an RS-35, and the best I can say about the JVC is that it really doesn't do too much wrong in the way of hurting PQ, but it really doesn't excite me to watch it either. The blacks are nice, but the colors don't pop like they do with DLP, and intrascene contrast in mixed scenes is mediocre at best. Unless the newer units have improved leaps and bounds over my RS-35, I see no reason to buy another JVC, especially considering their problems with 3D and lamps.

3. Up until now I have had ZERO interest in 3D, but if glasses like the MV3D can be used on ANY projector, then maybe the time is right to jump in and at least start considering a 3D solution. I wear prescription glasses, so the MV3Ds, as described by Jason, appeal to me.

4. Even though I have not set up my HTPC for 3D, I already own an Nvidia card, so if I buy something like Arcsoft Totalmedia Theater 5, will I be good to go on the source side? Currently I rip all of my Blu-rays and then remux them to .MKV and store them on a rather large (40 TB) server. I don't think I can do the same thing with 3D Blu-rays, but I think that I can simply rip the 3D Blu-ray and leave it in Blu-ray format and then play it back using TMT5...Is this correct?

5. Of the projectors mentioned in this thread, the Epson 5010 interests me the most. Jason, am I correct in thinking that if I buy the Epson and let's say, 4 pairs of MV3D glasses, I can make all of this work with my HTPC and TMT5? I am a real 3D noob, so if someone wants to point me to HTPC/3D primer rather than answer my noob questions, I would appreciate it very much (The 3D guide we have in the HTPC section is very outdated and pretty much useless).

6. For the time being, I could just buy the Epson and keep my RS-35, though my hopes are that the 2D performance of the Epson will satisfy me more than that of the JVC, despite the higher native on/off contrast of the JVC.

7. Out of curiosity, what is the AR of most 3D titles? I am using an ISCO anamorphic lens with a 2.35:1 HP 2.8 screen right now (114" diagonal at 16:9 - 144" diagonal at 2.35:1), my throw is ~1.7 SW, and seating at ~1.5 SW. Moving the very large ISCO from one projector to the other is simply not practical, so if the majority of 3D titles are in the same AR (probably 16:9), then that would be very nice...

Once again, thanks to everyone contributing here, especially Jason!
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post #1082 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I haven't been hanging around in this forum for awhile, so I just read this entire thread. Some random thoughts:

1. First of all, GREAT JOB, Jason! And your review comes off as very unbiased and fair - a breath of fresh air.

2. I don't understand why everyone is so enamored by the JVCs when it comes to 2D performance - I owned an RS1 (not very good projector at all) and currently own an RS-35, and the best I can say about the JVC is that it really doesn't do too much wrong in the way of hurting PQ, but it really doesn't excite me to watch it either. The blacks are nice, but the colors don't pop like they do with DLP, and intrascene contrast in mixed scenes is mediocre at best. Unless the newer units have improved leaps and bounds over my RS-35, I see no reason to buy another JVC, especially considering their problems with 3D and lamps.

3. Up until now I have had ZERO interest in 3D, but if glasses like the MV3D can be used on ANY projector, then maybe the time is right to jump in and at least start considering a 3D solution. I wear prescription glasses, so the MV3Ds, as described by Jason, appeal to me.

4. Even though I have not set up my HTPC for 3D, I already own an Nvidia card, so if I buy something like Arcsoft Totalmedia Theater 5, will I be good to go on the source side? Currently I rip all of my Blu-rays and then remux them to .MKV and store them on a rather large (40 TB) server. I don't think I can do the same thing with 3D Blu-rays, but I think that I can simply rip the 3D Blu-ray and leave it in Blu-ray format and then play it back using TMT5...Is this correct?

5. Of the projectors mentioned in this thread, the Epson 5010 interests me the most. Jason, am I correct in thinking that if I buy the Epson and let's say, 4 pairs of MV3D glasses, I can make all of this work with my HTPC and TMT5? I am a real 3D noob, so if someone wants to point me to HTPC/3D primer rather than answer my noob questions, I would appreciate it very much (The 3D guide we have in the HTPC section is very outdated and pretty much useless).

6. For the time being, I could just buy the Epson and keep my RS-35, though my hopes are that the 2D performance of the Epson will satisfy me more than that of the JVC, despite the higher native on/off contrast of the JVC.

7. Out of curiosity, what is the AR of most 3D titles? I am using an ISCO anamorphic lens with a 2.35:1 HP 2.8 screen right now (114" diagonal at 16:9 - 144" diagonal at 2.35:1), my throw is ~1.7 SW, and seating at ~1.5 SW. Moving the very large ISCO from one projector to the other is simply not practical, so if the majority of 3D titles are in the same AR (probably 16:9), then that would be very nice...

Once again, thanks to everyone contributing here, especially Jason!

Hi, Bob. Haven't seen your name for a while.

You can rip Blu-ray 3D as easily as regular Blu-ray, and if you have the right video card (nVidia 430 or better), you can play it back via HTPC. It can get tricky, and I've had a bit more success with PowerDVD 11 than TMT5, but others have probably had the opposite experience.

I'm thinking about a dual projector setup, with the Epson for most regular duties and the RS45 for critical viewing. I'm new to the JVC world (less than a year), but I'm still in love with it for 2D. The high native contrast makes me melt. But for 3D, it ghosts far too much for my taste (at least this year's RS45 does).

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post #1083 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Bob - Hi, thanks for the comments! It was fun getting to test all these projectors and I am a big fan of 3D so I wanted to see which one would suite my preferences best.

regarding 3D and the HTPC - Which Nvidia card do you currently have? I use the inexpensive GT430 and it works great with 3D on all the projectors I tested. I use Power DVD10 (never updated to 11 yet) and TMT5. I find either one will work better with certain movies, so it doesn't hurt to have both.

Once the software sends the 3D frame packed content to the projector, it will sync to 24FP (frame packed) and the IR sender of the projector will send the correct sync to the glasses. You can pull the BD's to ISO and use a free ISO mounting application that makes each ISO appear to be a drive letter than TMT5 or PDVD10 can load.

There are some pains with the HTPC Nvidia setup such as trying to get it to correctly switch between 60hz, 24p and 24fp. An alternative I've been using with good success is one of the first 3D network media devices.

http://www.futeko.com/products/MP00031.php

You can run it off network storage or throw in a 2-3TB HD internally. I have all my 3D BD on this system and can jump from movie to movie as quick as I want. My HTPC setup has been sitting idle for a bit as I've been playing with the Himedia 900b. it's more of an appliance than something I am constantly tweaking.

I like the 5010 for a number of different reasons. the black level is quite respectable for an LCD, the torch mode in 3D is excellent and the overall 3D, despite focusing on a few still shots and trying to find ghosting, is a very good 3D experience compared to all the current models i've tried. The lumen output ~ 1900 in 3D torch on a HP screen is what 3D is all about.. very bright and will surprise people who are used to seeing dimly lit 3D theaters.

i was not able to tweak the MV3D's quite as good as the Epson factory glasses, but I'll say they were my favorite of the factory glasses in regard to comfort and performance. I like the tint of the Epson glasses, it's quite close to the MV3D's. They fit fine over my glasses.

Can you run a 2 projector setup or would you definitely replace the RS35? I just picked up the RS55 and love the e-shift feature. mainly because I sit close to the 142" screen and the difference is pretty obvious when it's turned on. I won't be using the JVC for 3D, just my quality 2D BD's and dark sci-fi.
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post #1084 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I won't be using the JVC for 3D, just my quality 2D BD's and dark sci-fi.

Do you still like Sony better in bright scenes even compared to the RS-55 with e-shift on


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post #1085 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 01:47 PM
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I think the hc7800 has some deal-breaking issues IMHO for 3D and maybe even a couple serious ones in 2D, and I am a huge Mits DLP fan. I would recommend anyone of course always research the owner's thread first as much as possible.

Hello what are those deal breaking issues?

I have watched the jvcx30-epson tw9000-sony hw30 in 3d and the hc7800 absolute wins from those projectors in 3d.

Its realy easy on the eyes(no eye strain).

Less ghosting and Great FI

And a great contrast and depth.

Its the best 3d i have seen on a projector.

But ofcourse everybody must go watch(like i did) for your self to make the decision.
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post #1086 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 01:55 PM
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I am not sure as I have not seen it myself, just passing on what others have said. I am a fan of Mits DLP's, I still think the hc4000 (the little brother) has one of the best under-$3000 images there is overall, except for the darkest of dark scenes.

Some have said the hc7800's 3D is still not really polished due to ghosting which shouldn't occur on a DLP but due to a bug in the glasses? Krane wrote a review on it about this. Others have said geometry problems, and I think a few have had issues with sharpness using certain sources or content kind of like the Acer 9500bd.

For me it only has a 4x color wheel, that was the deal-breaker for me, but I know many won't care about that, but I am very RBE sensitive. I need at least a 5x color wheel for a projector that has anything near average black levels, because those dark blacks in high contrast scenes is where I see the frenzy of rainbows. The Acer has a 4x color wheel I believe, but someone mentioned it has a 5x mode as well, not sure though.


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post #1087 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 02:02 PM
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What gives?

Unit variation. 'nuff said.

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post #1088 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by john2910 View Post

Hello what are those deal breaking issues?

I have watched the jvcx30-epson tw9000-sony hw30 in 3d and the hc7800 absolute wins from those projectors in 3d.

Its realy easy on the eyes(no eye strain).

Less ghosting and Great FI

And a great contrast and depth.

Its the best 3d i have seen on a projector.

But ofcourse everybody must go watch(like i did) for your self to make the decision.

Thanks for sharing John. The Mits was supposed to be the favourite when it was introduced, and then viewed at the various shows. Glad to see that it lives up to the billing.

My advice about issues is not to go looking for them if you don't see them. There isn't one projector here that doesn't have some negatives going against it.

@Zombie: Completely understand your preferences, and they seem very sensible. I actually started noticing a slight green tint watching Kungfu Panda 2 3D a week ago, specifically on the panda's white fur, and then I remembered what you said. I've watched more than a dozen 3D Blurays without ever noticing this before. I then remembered Deja Vu mentioning that the Nvidia setting in the 3D options was specifically tuned for the glasses. Low and behold, when I engaged the setting, no more tint on the white fur, the whites were white, and all the other colors look just like in 2D mode. Regardless, I'm glad you've happily arrived at the combo you like as that is what its all about, choices!
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post #1089 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

2. I don't understand why everyone is so enamored by the JVCs when it comes to 2D performance - I owned an RS1 (not very good projector at all) and currently own an RS-35, and the best I can say about the JVC is that it really doesn't do too much wrong in the way of hurting PQ, but it really doesn't excite me to watch it either. The blacks are nice, but the colors don't pop like they do with DLP, and intrascene contrast in mixed scenes is mediocre at best. Unless the newer units have improved leaps and bounds over my RS-35, I see no reason to buy another JVC, especially considering their problems with 3D and lamps.

Hi Bob. Good to see you back in the forum. I also am a great fan of DLP's. A couple of years ago I bought 2 Barco Cine9's (9" crt). As much as I tried to like them, it just didn't take. I've posted about my experience recently. Their blacks were definitely great, but even stacking 2 of them, with 2 Lumagens to calibrate each perfectly and match up gamma, the image just didn't satisfy me. No pop. I sold both of them along with the spare tubes to a gentleman in Europe and I haven't regretted it one bit. I've now seen most of the JVC's and they're just not sharp enough for me, not even close. I haven't seen the latest versions, but I doubt my opinion would change. For 3D, I've been thinking about picking up another C3X and go the 2 projector passive route. I'm also following the Sony VW-1000. Its brightness and resolution could win me over. I'm going to visit a fellow AVS'er (who has one on order) this spring and see it myself.
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post #1090 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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@rwestley
The only two 1080p 3D-DLP's under $2k are the Optoma hd33 and Acer 9500bd. Probably the Acer is better but I'm not 100% since I haven't seen it.

@Snowboarders
Yah, it always makes you wonder, do you respect them for their determination and skill, or do you feel pity for them for their suicidal tendencies.

I am not a fan of snowboarding or snowboarders but the film really shows off the projector. It is also an advertisement for Red Bull.
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post #1091 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 03:33 PM
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Hi, Bob. Haven't seen your name for a while.

Yup, still here... good to see you are still active...
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regarding 3D and the HTPC - Which Nvidia card do you currently have? I use the inexpensive GT430 and it works great with 3D on all the projectors I tested. I use Power DVD10 (never updated to 11 yet) and TMT5. I find either one will work better with certain movies, so it doesn't hurt to have both.

I am using a GTX 550 Ti (not a gamer's choice, but good enough for HTPC with hardware acceleration). The investment in 2 software players (TMT5 and PDVD11) is certainly minimal, as long as they play together nicely in the same system... , so I have no problem going that route.
Quote:


You can pull the BD's to ISO and use a free ISO mounting application that makes each ISO appear to be a drive letter than TMT5 or PDVD10 can load.

Ya...that's the plan.
Quote:


There are some pains with the HTPC Nvidia setup such as trying to get it to correctly switch between 60hz, 24p and 24fp. An alternative I've been using with good success is one of the first 3D network media devices.

Yes, it is a problem even with 2D on the HTPC. The NAS tanks running Linux seem to do a much better job. I was using a Sage HD300 until recently...It is such a shame that Google bought them out and shelved them. They never got to the point of supporting 3D before going defunct... I will check out the one you linked to, as I really enjoyed the ease of setup and use of the HD300.

Right now I have switched to J. River's Media Center 17. Though it runs on an HTPC rather than as a separate box, it is a really incredible player that sets up in about 5 minutes for perfect playback of most anything I have thrown at it...but it doesn't support 3D playback...yet.

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i was not able to tweak the MV3D's quite as good as the Epson factory glasses, but I'll say they were my favorite of the factory glasses in regard to comfort and performance. I like the tint of the Epson glasses, it's quite close to the MV3D's. They fit fine over my glasses.

So you would recommend the Epson glasses over the MV3D's?

Quote:


Can you run a 2 projector setup or would you definitely replace the RS35? I just picked up the RS55 and love the e-shift feature. mainly because I sit close to the 142" screen and the difference is pretty obvious when it's turned on. I won't be using the JVC for 3D, just my quality 2D BD's and dark sci-fi.

I am planning on sticking with 2 projectors, or at least for now. Before I give up my RS-35 I want to make sure that I have something else in place that will satisfy me better for 2D. I wish I had my Planar 8150 that I sold to buy the RS-35 - In many ways I liked it better, though the JVC does have a lower black floor.

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I have watched the jvcx30-epson tw9000-sony hw30 in 3d and the hc7800 absolute wins from those projectors in 3d.

Hmmmm...another one to consider.

Quote:


For 3D, I've been thinking about picking up another C3X and go the 2 projector passive route.

Wow, that would definitely be awesome! The alignment issues would be too much for me, though. But if you have the patience, that would make an incredible 3D setup with tons of lumens and really popping colors.

Just so that there is no misunderstanding, I am not criticizing JVC owners for their pick of projector. I am just pointing out that the JVC line is not without fault even for 2D, and that there are other factors that go into making a quality picture, not just high on/off contrast, and no one projector, even JVC, is perfect. It is just a matter of which qualities YOU find most important and which weaknesses YOU can live with. For me, I am willing to give up a little bit of black (like what can be gotten from the ~16k:1 Planar 8150, now marketed by Runco as the LS2, I think) in order to get more pop in mid and bright scenes, something that until now I have only gotten from DLP. My hopes are that the Epson will provide me with blacks that are "good enough" while giving me much more "pop" and "wow" (and higher ANSI) in mid and brighter scenes than I get from JVC. If not, the RS-35 will still be there...
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post #1092 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Do you still like Sony better in bright scenes even compared to the RS-55 with e-shift on

Negative, I finally have to give JVC some credit this year, at least on the e-shift. I probably shouldn't be sitting this close to a 142" screen, but this is where the e-shift becomes obvious. It's not just more detail, facial features take on dimension and appear to have some depth vs. a flat appearance when it's turned off. As others have stated, there appears to be real increase in perceived contrast. Cine4home likes the e-shift.. what else is there to say?

I still don't have much faith in the lamps from a few reports, but I know it's way too early to tell. My first RS55 before sending it back dropped an alarming amount in a short period of time. This is why the HW30 is such a great backup projector for everything else. ~5% approaching 200 hours. Maybe I have a golden egg for a lamp, but I haven't seen anyone else with lamp issues and the projector has been out since mid summer and quite popular on the french forums with no apparent complaints.


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@Zombie: Completely understand your preferences, and they seem very sensible. I actually started noticing a slight green tint watching Kungfu Panda 2 3D a week ago, specifically on the panda's white fur, and then I remembered what you said. I've watched more than a dozen 3D Blurays without ever noticing this before. I then remembered Deja Vu mentioning that the Nvidia setting in the 3D options was specifically tuned for the glasses. Low and behold, when I engaged the setting, no more tint on the white fur, the whites were white, and all the other colors look just like in 2D mode. Regardless, I'm glad you've happily arrived at the combo you like as that is what its all about, choices!

Where are you seeing the setting, in the Nvidia control panel or the projector itself? I haven't fired up the 5360 in a little while and will check it out again to be fair in my comments.

btw, I give the 5360 plenty of credit.. it was a great combo with the 3D vision setup, and it was a blast to run ghost-free 3D on a big screen way before 1080P 3D projectors were announce in September 2010.
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post #1093 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 05:24 PM
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Where are you seeing the setting, in the Nvidia control panel or the projector itself? I haven't fired up the 5360 in a little while and will check it out again to be fair in my comments.

btw, I give the 5360 plenty of credit.. it was a great combo with the 3D vision setup, and it was a blast to run ghost-free 3D on a big screen way before 1080P 3D projectors were announce in September 2010.

It is in the Acer settings. You can keep your regular set up for 3D or select either Nvidia 3D or DLP Link mode -- each have their own separate calibrated settings to compensate for the glasses.
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post #1094 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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It is in the Acer settings. You can keep your regular set up for 3D or select either Nvidia 3D or DLP Link mode -- each have their own separate calibrated settings to compensate for the glasses.

Ah, ok I thought it was something additonal. I've had it set for the NVIDIA setup. I am going to run the acer and Epson for a little side by side tonight just to refresh my memory.
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post #1095 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 05:39 PM
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I got a RS45 for my own use a few days ago, and after spending a few hours with it I have to say that I am quite pleased.

1. In October, 2006 I purchased a Sharp XVZ-20000 for about $7500, and it has been my reference projector since. Taking inflation into account, that would be about $8350 today. I got the RS45 for less than $3000. This is an incredible value.

2. The RS45 has no CMS and the best color mode is not bad, but for those who are anal about such things, it needs improvement.



The primary/secondary chromaticity is quite good, but the luminances are off. Red and blue are both too low. Thus, for best performance this projector mates very well with an external processor, such as a DVDO Duo or Lumagen Radiance.

3. After calibrating the projector, my initial impression was that dark scenes looked excellent, but brighter scenes seemed flat and lifeless. I decided to try a higher gamma. I adjusted the gamma up from 2.22 to 2.3. This transformed the image. Dark scenes still appeared excellent, but now brighter scenes looked luscious, with great depth and realism.

4. One odd aspect of the projector's performance is that high-quality broadcast and Blu-ray sources provide image quality that easily surpasses what I was accustomed to with the Sharp. However, with lower quality HD broadcast sources, I thought that the image looked worse. The image seemed a little noisy and colors appeared blotchy, almost as though they were being viewed with a lower bit depth. A more extreme version of this is sometimes referred to as the clay face artifact.

Because this phenomenon comes and goes depending on the quality of source, one could argue that the JVC is resolving more detail, showing differences in source material that were invisible with a lower resolution unit. Or it could be exaggerating differences that are not actually present in the source material. I honestly don't know what I think about this.

5. The bottom line is that mating a JVC RS45 with an external processor got me a projector that I thought easily surpassed the performance of my previous reference projector on high quality sources, and it did this--even counting the cost of the processor--for less than half of what I paid just a few years ago. I couldn't be more pleased.

BTW, for even less money one could get an Epson 5010 or a BenQ W7000, both of which have built-in CMSs that work very well. Both of these projectors offer very good images, though in its current incarnation the W7000's native contrast is quite low and must be used with dynamic black.

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post #1096 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 05:52 PM
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Ah, ok I thought it was something additonal. I've had it set for the NVIDIA setup. I am going to run the acer and Epson for a little side by side tonight just to refresh my memory.

Yes, its in the setting called 3D mode. It is not required, but you know its engaged because everytime a 3D file starts playing it has a blue info box that pops up saying the PJ is now in 3D mode.

Jason, if its not too much trouble, could you see if the Monster IR receiver is able to sync with the Nvidia emitter? It would be cool if it did, as this would give one more choice of glasses. The biggest problem I have with the Nvidia is they are very dark glasses. I'm really thinking about an HP 2.4 screen now, even a pull down one as I don't need the brightness for 2D. Do you find the Acer is able to take advantage of the HP screen?
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post #1097 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I got a RS45 for my own use a few days ago, and after spending a few hours with it I have to say that I am quite pleased.

BTW, for even less money one could get an Epson 5010 or a BenQ W7000, both of which have built-in CMSs that work very well. Both of these projectors offer very good images, though in its current incarnation the W7000's native contrast is quite low and must be used with dynamic black.

Thanks for commenting, you are a very busy person and we're lucky to hear from you when we can. I was wondering if it was just me as I also preferred running the Gamma differently on this projector depending on the content I was watching. The JVC is really good at playing reference level blurays, but it can lack some in other types of discs, I agree with you on this for the most part.

I think part of it just a difference in the tech, when I play the movie "Into the Wild" on a DLP it always looks better than LCOS, probably partly the type of filming they did doesn't agree with the JVC, the noise or something. Even though DLP at times seems just as noisy, I think DLP holds its dimensionality and look of sharpness even through the noise if that makes sense. I think for most movies I get used to it though and prefer the JVC, but there are a few poorly shot movies where I still prefer DLP occasionally. The built-in controls (NR, DH, Sharpness) do help a bit on these poorer sources, sometimes I experiment with them, but I am sure they pale in comparison to what a Video Processor like a Lumagen can add to the JVC.

The only projector I've owned that I thought was superb in its internal processnig was a Mitsubishi hc4000, for some reason I always felt like this DLP projector even though cheap did something special in handling poorer sources, no idea why.

Like you said though, the RS-45 is a real value, and I have a hard time turning down a good value. BTW, check out Tree of Life and I bet being the HT guru you are, you will really appreciate some of the camera work on the JVC. Also that snowboard one the others mentioned and underworld might be a good one. For some reason though I was just amazed by the camera work in Tree of Life more than any other movie I think I've ever seen in my life, even though the movie itself leaves a bit to be desired (creepy odd movie).

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post #1098 of 3270 Old 01-23-2012, 06:44 PM
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Hey, Tom. I think we got the Sharp about the same time (and price). I loved it, but I wouldn't go back to a DLP again after experiencing the native contrast of the JVC. For me, the JVC sparkles, with brilliant whites against those inky blacks. However, the dark on light ghosting kills the JVC's 3D image. After reading all the positive things you and others have to say about the Epson 5010, I'm leaning very much toward a dual projector setup. If I can, I'm trading my RS45 for the Epson, so I'll have the 5010 and my original RS40. I still much prefer the RS40's 3D to that of the RS45, and the 40's great contrast for 2D Blu-ray should give me the best of both worlds when paired with the Epson. That's the theory, anyway. I'll find out what the reality is, if I can swing the exchange.

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Ah, ok I thought it was something additonal. I've had it set for the NVIDIA setup. I am going to run the acer and Epson for a little side by side tonight just to refresh my memory.

I'll be very interested in what you see. Like you I have a HP 2.8 screen and know what you're seeing with the Acer. I'd like to know what differences you see between it and the Epson -- like resolution, black level, brightness, ghosting and depth of 3D image. I would expect everything but ghosting to be better on the Epson, but how much better is the Epson and how much better is the Acer when it comes to ghosting -- in other words how does the Epson fare compared to the Acer when it comes to ghosting? If the Acer gets 10/10 for ghosting then what does the Epson get out of 10 for 3D BD?

Thanks
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Tom's posting. I guess the NFL season is basically over except for one more game. Thank God for DVRs when Tom calls in the middle of the second quarter of the Baltimore NE game on Suday to verbally give me the results of his calibration and to answer some questions I had concerning color and the Cine4home review of the RS55.
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Epson 5010 was measured at 5000:1
http://www.displaycalibrationonline...._epson5010.asp

I'm interested in both 3D and the operation of the DI, since I will use it. This review is extremely limited for my purposes and I suspect many others as well.

I find Art's comments and photos concerning the RS-45 and its inaccuracies with it's black level very revealing. The Sony VW-95 looks very good and quite accurate with respect to the star field photo. The JVC doesn't appear even close -- it has an obvious heavy blue to purple bias. Is his projector a poor sample? For me that's a major flaw. This particular comparison makes the VW95 look very, very good and I'm beginning to understand why members here are raving about it!

http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/image.php
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I find Art's comments and photos concerning the RS-45 and its inaccuracies with it's black level very revealing. The Sony VW-95 looks very good and quite accurate with respect to the star field photo. The JVC doesn't appear even close -- it has an obvious heavy blue to purple bias. Is his projector a poor sample? For me that's a major flaw. This particular comparison makes the VW95 look very, very good and I'm beginning to understand why members here are raving about it!

Yes, I agree, but the Sony should be better considering the price difference. But I am puzzled why Art liked the JVC better than the lower priced Epson 5010, as the Epson seemed to beat the RS45 on everything except black floor, and even then it was quite close. If the black floor is THAT important, why not just throw an ND2 filter on the Epson? It has lumens to spare and would probably be plenty bright on most people's screens even at half brightness. Then simply remove the filter when the lamp ages and loses output.

Maybe the Epson doesn't look as good in person as it does on paper...
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I got a RS45 for my own use a few days ago, and after spending a few hours with it I have to say that I am quite pleased

....

4. One odd aspect of the projector's performance is that high-quality broadcast and Blu-ray sources provide image quality that easily surpasses what I was accustomed to with the Sharp. However, with lower quality HD broadcast sources, I thought that the image looked worse. The image seemed a little noisy and colors appeared blotchy, almost as though they were being viewed with a lower bit depth. A more extreme version of this is sometimes referred to as the clay face artifact.

Because this phenomenon comes and goes depending on the quality of source, one could argue that the JVC is resolving more detail, showing differences in source material that were invisible with a lower resolution unit. Or it could be exaggerating differences that are not actually present in the source material. I honestly don't know what I think about this.

...

Thanks for your comments.

Could you provide an example or two of Blu-ray or HDTV content that triggers this blotchy behavior (or the extreme term "clay face")? For example, did you see this behavior only with lower quality HD broadcasts or did you see it on poor quality blurays also?

... Altan
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3. After calibrating the projector, my initial impression was that dark scenes looked excellent, but brighter scenes seemed flat and lifeless. I decided to try a higher gamma. I adjusted the gamma up from 2.22 to 2.3. This transformed the image. Dark scenes still appeared excellent, but now brighter scenes looked luscious, with great depth and realism.

I use a custom gamma curve on my RS-35 which is set to 2.4 in the mid and upper IREs, tapering down to 2.2 at the bottom end, thus giving me a lot of depth in mid and brighter scenes, along with better shadow detail in darker scenes. The problem I have, though, is that the RS-35 lamp I have lost a LOT of lumens in the first 400 hours (~45% to 50%), and since the lamp is losing color unevenly, every time I calibrate I lose even more lumens than the lamp is losing overall. I now have about 700 hours on my lamp and it is more than time to replace it (as far as I am concerned), because even on my HP 2.8, the image lacks the pop and depth it had no matter what I do with gamma.

The RS-35 looked great when it was *new*, but it drops light output so fast that I either have to soon live with a less than stellar picture or I have to replace the lamp every 400 hours to keep it looking good.

Or I could just get a smaller screen...
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yes, I agree, but the Sony should be better considering the price difference. But I am puzzled why Art liked the JVC better than the lower priced Epson 5010, as the Epson seemed to beat the RS45 on everything except black floor, and even then it was quite close. If the black floor is THAT important, why not just throw an ND2 filter on the Epson? It has lumens to spare and would probably be plenty bright on most people's screens even at half brightness. Then simply remove the filter when the lamp ages and loses output.

Maybe the Epson doesn't look as good in person as it does on paper...

My guess is native contrast, which by my count is 10x higher on the JVC. It's why I still swoon when I watch dark scenes on the JVC. If the JVC weren't so terrible to ghost, I wouldn't be looking anywhere else.

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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I use a custom gamma curve on my RS-35 which is set to 2.4 in the mid and upper IREs, tapering down to 2.2 at the bottom end, thus giving me a lot of depth in mid and brighter scenes, along with better shadow detail in darker scenes. The problem I have, though, is that the RS-35 lamp I have lost a LOT of lumens in the first 400 hours (~45% to 50%), and since the lamp is losing color unevenly, every time I calibrate I lose even more lumens than the lamp is losing overall. I now have about 700 hours on my lamp and it is more than time to replace it (as far as I am concerned), because even on my HP 2.8, the image lacks the pop and depth it had no matter what I do with gamma.

The RS-35 looked great when it was *new*, but it drops light output so fast that I either have to soon live with a less than stellar picture or I have to replace the lamp every 400 hours to keep it looking good.

Or I could just get a smaller screen...

That's very depressing. I HATE dimming. I love it when people say, "I have 2400 hours on the lamp and haven't noticed much dimming. But when I put a new lamp in, WOW it looks bright."

Uhhh.....ok.

I wish I was ignorant enough to not notice the slightest of lumen drops, but I do. I feel your pain.
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post #1107 of 3270 Old 01-24-2012, 07:45 AM
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My guess is native contrast, which by my count is 10x higher on the JVC. It's why I still swoon when I watch dark scenes on the JVC. If the JVC weren't so terrible to ghost, I wouldn't be looking anywhere else.


That is a big reason why I keep coming back to the JVC as well. I love using the manual iris in conjunction with my HP screen and opening it up as the lamp ages.........if you do this with a DI projector, you are stuck with the native contrast which is a fraction of the JVCs. Not to mention I cant go back to a manual lens shift using the zoom method on a 2.35 screen, and a joystick lens shift at that (on the Epson/Panny)..........uhhhggg!

Does any other RS45 owner see the purple black type thing that Art is reporting? I have plenty of complaints with my RS45, but I dont have purple blacks. Art must either have a bad unit or a bad calibration because I have not seen or read of this until now and this is certainly not normal for the 45.

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There is something wrong with that RS45 or it's calibration. The one I had for a few days and my RS55 don't look anything like that sample. A reviewer who is also a calibrator has a major benefit. The 10% and 20% IRE on that gray scale adjustment could be off the scale with blue and I would have fixed it before commenting on it since it's not normal.

In addition, the condition of the projector sample should be stated in the reviews since there can be noticeable variance. Based on my first RS55, I would have been let down from the e-shift since there was something wrong with the lens that wouldn't allow a sharp focus from edge to edge. The replacement is significantly better. I am wondering if their RS45 also had an issue with the lens. The RS45 I reviewed was perfect with focus and nearly perfect with convergence.
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

My guess is native contrast, which by my count is 10x higher on the JVC. It's why I still swoon when I watch dark scenes on the JVC. If the JVC weren't so terrible to ghost, I wouldn't be looking anywhere else.

I doubt that it is 10Xs higher. My understanding is that under ideal circumstances the RS-45 has a contrast of about 50,000:1 on/off with manual iris closed completely and in low lamp mode and with the zoom closed down. I think in real world conditions half of that would be close. The Epson showed 5,000:1 at normal zoom with no iris to close. I think we're really talking about 5Xs the difference, which is still very impressive on JVCs part; however maybe not so dramatic. The numbers game is an interesting one.
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I doubt that it is 10Xs higher. My understanding is that under ideal circumstances the RS-45 has a contrast of about 50,000:1 on/off with manual iris closed completely and in low lamp mode and with the zoom closed down. I think in real world conditions half of that would be close. The Epson showed 5,000:1 at normal zoom with no iris to close. I think we're really talking about 5Xs the difference, which is still very impressive on JVCs part; however maybe not so dramatic. the numbers game is an interesting one.

It depends on the setup as well. In my setup, I run my RS45 for my 1.78 image at max throw, low lamp and iris clamped all the way at -15 which means I am maxing out the contrast and it is gorgeous. Most people wont be able to do this to be fair, but I guess this is one advantage to me having a smaller screen and one with 2.8 gain. So for me, this is a real world scenario. If I still had my ST130, I would not want to do this as the image would not be bright enough, but with the HP I still get a very bright and punchy image. The HP/JVC is a match made in heaven if you ask me for these very reasons!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

There is something wrong with that RS45 or it's calibration. The one I had for a few days and my RS55 don't look anything like that sample. A reviewer who is also a calibrator has a major benefit. The 10% and 20% IRE on that gray scale adjustment could be off the scale with blue and I would have fixed it before commenting on it since it's not normal.

In addition, the condition of the projector sample should be stated in the reviews since there can be noticeable variance. Based on my first RS55, I would have been let down from the e-shift since there was something wrong with the lens that wouldn't allow a sharp focus from edge to edge. The replacement is significantly better. I am wondering if their RS45 also had an issue with the lens. The RS45 I reviewed was perfect with focus and nearly perfect with convergence.

No doubt. Is he planning on trying another unit? I did not read the full review so I dont know if he mentioned anything about trying to get a replacement?

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